BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

FINALLY...the Rock HAS COME.......oh wait......finally got the EZ-EFI installed on my 89 Firebird. I got the Multi-point retrofit kit from Summit for around $875.00 back in the Winter. I worked on it sporadically over a period of months. I'll go thru as much detail as I can; all part numbers and prices are from Summit too. Remember, this was a MAF/TPI car.
So here goes:

The Changes:
-you'll need a speed density-style air filter, I used pn KNN-RC-5000 ($37.00)
-your charcoal canister can be removed; EDIT 6/9/11: see post #12 below
-I have dual fans, you can leave the AUX fan as is and you'll wire the PRIMARY fan to the EZ unit
-simply unplug your stock ECM
-a stock fuel pump won't cut it, get the one from FAST or, I used the Edelbrock/Warboro 60some gallons per hour unit; you'll splice the ground wire from the FP relay into the EZ unit
-if you run an MSD, you're in luck. The stock distributor needs to be removed and replaced w/ a vac advance unit, I used the MSD Pro Billet pn MSD-8361 ($206.00); you'll run a wire from the tach out on the MSD to the EZ and the magnetic pickup wire from the dizzy to the MSD as well
-Speedo and VATS will be fine left untouched
-EGR is eliminated due to no provision in the EZ system
-gotta find a place to mount the new MAP sensor: I found a MAP sens bracket in a salvage yard and bolted it onto my car in the spot from which it left the old car. You also need to BUY a sensor, the kit does not come with one, pn 307007 ($40.00)
-if you use tach adapter 8910 , you need to swap out for the 8920. Use the 3-wire Voltage Triggered install. You'll split the tach out between the EZ & 8920. Looking at the 8920 instructions, The red wire will be spliced with the red of the MSD going to the red 12v switched; the violet wire will go to the tach trigger wire, which is that white wire with the grey disconnect; black is ground; and the white will join the EZ wire in the tack out of the MSD box.

The Procedures:
-I had to relocate the coil from beside the distributor due to a possible clearance issue with the vac canister on the Pro Billet. I moved it to the driver's side, just behind the shock tower. Very tidy, sits right in front of my MSD box.
-Did the Charcoal Canister changes noted above
-Fuel Pump Relay: this was tricky because in my prelim notes, I read that the stock ECM sends voltage (GRN/WHT wire) to the relay. The EZ sends a ground, which means leave the GRN/WHT wire alone and splice the EZ FP wire into the BLK (ground) wire to your fuel pump. Had to call the Tech Line for this one.
-Primary Fan Relay: spliced the D.GRN/WHT wire to the EZ here (again a ground wire)
-Vacuum: used the small vac port on the plenum to branch off for the fuel pressure reg, the distributor & MAP sensor. You will eliminate the EGR vac, so that will free up the port.
-EGR: remove your plenum and get rid of the valve, the vac lines, the switch, and plug the little vac port under your throttle body. Get a block off plate (TPIparts.net pn EMS-250, $14.00) and gasket and seal 'er up.
-The kit comes with detailed instructions and helpful Techs, use them both.
-Finding the right place to mount the ECM and new harness was challenging. If you have A/C, you life will be more difficult than mine was. I mounted the ECM to the PASS kick panel, that way I can see the status light, and ran the loomed portion of the harness thru 2 holes I cut siamese under the heater box, the single wires for BAT, FP, etc were run under the dash and thru a hole on the DRV side and to their destinations. The communications cable was run here too. I removed the ALDL port and have the cable coming out of there, so when I'm done, I just tuck it back in for next time!
-Heed the instruction: don't run the wires parallel to the plug wires. I ran mine under the distributor and underneath the plenum. The O2 was juuuust long enough to go behind the DRV plug wires and header to the bung.

Startup:
-I set my base timing to 10*. A balancer tape is immensely helpful here. I run the Lt Silver & Lt Blue advance spring (all in by 3100 rom) and the Silver stop bushing (25*) for a total of 35* full advance
-Follow the EZ instructions for startup and note the break-in procedure for your new distributor (conv 10w30 oil at idle for 15-30 minutes)
-It's going to be a mess on startup, not sure what order I did it, but set the timing and get the idle set and work from there

Upon my initial startup (after getting things sorted out), I noticed immediately that the idle quality was better and free revving felt more linear too. Most of my backfires on decel are gone and I LOVE the info on the handheld. Wideband O2 is boss. I'm sure I left stuff out, so ask me if there are any questions.

\m/ Eric \m/

EDIT 9/14/12: I had repeatedly run into a bouncy idle situation and could not figure out why. It was intermittant and initially thought it was due to the fan coming on. I later figured out when I had too many electrical things going (fan, aux fan, stereo bumpin') the bounce would return. Tried setting idle again and again with no luck. I called COMP and the fella led me in a new direction. Turns out I had wired a couple things incorrectly. I had the 12Vsw from the EZ wired with the 12Vsw of the fuel pump getting power from one of the taps on the fuse block (already had gauges on the other tap). This is wrong, EZ needs it's 12Vsw feed ALONE, with nothing else sharing the power source. I moved both EZ & the FP relay to separate switched taps and life is good once again. I will note, if I have EVERYTHING (fan, aux fan, stereo bumpin', headlights) on at the same time, the bounce comes back, but I can accept that because I can't think of a situation where I'd be using them all at the same time anyway. Turn off any one of those items and the idle is fine.

QUICKCHICKEN

iTrader: (12)

the FP you used, is it an intank or in line? im starting to think my holley hi flo isnt sufficiant.

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

I replaced my stock fuel pump (which had a bad pulsator) with a new in-tank unit. Mine flows 67gph, the Tech told me it is more than sufficient.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

So what is your total outlay in $$$?

If I have this right you probably spent a couple K for a system that requires you to take a step backwards in that you have no spark control, no multiple fan control at your discretion, it wouldn't lockup your converter if you had one at your parameters and a whole host of other defficiencies.

You're going to have to explain this to me, apparently I have missed something major.

Thank you.
Mark

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

Probably around $1300. I admit this isn't for everyone. If you like reburning your chip every time you make an upgrade, or remapping fuel & spark tables, then you should pass on this. This setup is plug and play, any changes I make to the engine will be accounted for simply by driving the car. The vac advance distributor works just fine. I do have multiple fan control, the EZ controls the main fan and I control the AUX with a switch. How is that different from my stock ECM exactly? I don't care about lockup control because I run a manual transmission.

Again, I know that there are those who will swear this is a waste of money. Until I can take it to the dyno for some hard numbers, I cannot refute that claim. To each his own. If you're missing something major from my post, I can't help you. This was intended to aid those who want to make this upgrade.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

I agree and disagree. When you lose the ability to tune the spark curve that's huge. To be able to add advance when cold and take it as it heats up that's an unbelieveable advantage. And that's over and above total control from idle to wot.
As far as fans go, to be able to turn one on when you hit the A/C clutch, turn the A/C clutch off when to hit the gas if you want, keep the other fan on or not and be able to set the turn on and turn off temps at virtually anything you want is a great feature as well. That's just part of it.

Fyi an Accel Thruster with all those features is about $1800.00, and you use your existing distributor, An XFI isn't much more. And they'll run in sequential.
I applaud your efforts by getting away form the chip technology, but for just a few bucks more you might have been able to have a system offering total control. And I think after reading your post it'd be hard to say that it's really plug and play don't you think? You had to fool with this and that then address your timing etc. Hardly plug and play in my eyes, but that's just my opinion.

Thanks for your time, I appreciate it.
Mark

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

Mark, you make some valid points, all of which I think could be true in your situation. It seems to me like you enjoy changing spark tables and the like, and I'm not downing you for that. With the points you make, your FI can tune many more things than my EZ can. Yes, you can macro manage most anything on your car..

I am the opposite. I don't really need all that. My idea was to get newer technology that I wouldn't have to mess with. I HATE chip burning, or having to do it through the mail. I read about EZ in a couple mags and it seemed like a good fit for my situation. Spark curves and fuel tables, turning anything on or off, whatever, just isn't something I feel the need to control. I am not trying to tune 10s out of my car. I just wanted a better FI setup that can roll with my punches and not give me any guff when I change something.

I appreciate you keeping this debate civilized as I have seen all out war break out on this subject.

You're welcome, anytime.
Eric

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

I took the car out for it's first real shake down and man, does it feel good. Normally I'm fairly easy on it, but I've read where it's best to drive the snot out of it in the beginning. The idle is perfect, most of the backfires on decel are gone, the power feels more linear, the revving feels more solid, and I didn't burn through a half tank like I normally would.

I've been talking with a board member about his initial drives and we both had an issue w/ a stumble at throttle tip-in and a bouncy idle. The idle issue was caused by myself, got fixed, and that's no longer a problem. The stumble at tip-in was curious. The more I drove the car, the less it happened. I also found out that it does not like to have the throttle mashed in high hear at 1500 RPM, that would cause a stumble. Since I drive a manual, I don't need to do that anyway, I just downshift which puts the car in an ideal range to jam it to the floor. The power is instantanious and strong. I think if one had an automatic with this issue, there are a couple ways to tune it out with the handheld (accel fuel or idle A/F).

I also must say, when trying to diagnose the idle bounce, the handheld unit with the wideband O2 reading was invaluable. I'm not super keen on detecting where problems are coming from, so seeing the A/F ratio swing so wildly led me to the fix.

Every test drive is one burnout closer to dyno day!

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

Boss357 I see your points. But in all honestly I think you just justified mine.

You're having to fool with it, you have/had a stumble. Then maybe it's not as self tuning as it's lead to be?
That's my point, and if you don't want to fool with the other tables, you don't have to. But I promise you with a little tweaking, just a little more than what you've had to do so far, your driveablity can be that much better, and then forget it, just like the EZ. I haven't messed with mine in years. And the O2 keeps things in check just like any other.

Thanks for the input.
Mark

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

Sounds to me like the EZ already has you making compromises, the same way you did when having to burn your own chips.

Thanks for allowing me to express my opinion.
Mark

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

After a few more days of test driving, the car smooths out with every mile. The power is is crisp and linear all the way up to 5500, with only a few minor blips to tune out. Truth be told, the power didn't used to be so good that far up the RPM range. Judging solely by the seat of my pants, it feels to pull much harder up to redline than is did with the old setup. The idle is smooth and steady (after warm up). A little bounciness every now and again but much much less than before. Even without the EGR, I've managed to keep the temps under control even on this 98*+ day. The vac distributor does it's job seemlessly, you'd never know it wasn't computer controlled.

Basically, like it instructions say, the more you drive and the more varied the conditions, the better it will run. True that. As I mentioned above, there are still a couple hiccups I need to tune out. One being backfires on decel, however significantly less than before; the other is a minor pause in the power when hitting the pedal at idle. This issue did occur with the old setup, only under open loop conditions. I have 2 parameters I will play around with (idle A/F and accel fuel) to see which situation will right this issue. I could well leave this alone, but I believe that with a few pushes of the button, it can be solved and will be better than with the stock computer.

I initially thought that I'd run 2 full tanks through and then hit the dyno, however it feels almost ready to go as it is now. After these issues are resolved, I am going to check the plugs hoping the wet, gas/oil smell that was on them with the stock computer, has been burnt off and gone for good.

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

I want to address the fuel tank vent issue in a separate post because I believe it is worth noting if for no other reason than safety.

During my initial research, I had read that to vent the gas tank, simply plug the vent line and install a true vented gas cap, which I did. I bought a Stant "Pre-Vent" cap, thinking it was a true venting cap. I suppose in one way it is, it does let vapors out, but it also lets fuel come out too. My first few test drives with it were with the tank half full, thus no spillage. After I filled up, I began dumping gas on right hand turns. No good. I tightened the cap and the spill was gone, however I had no vent. (note: the cap says "turn 1/2 turn to vent")

I took the better part of a weekend reading posts on this issue and looking for a vented cap. Here's the deal: no one makes a no-spill, true vented cap for our cars. I'm guessing that when the posts I read stated I could buy one, the poster hadn't attempted to do so yet. For reference, our caps are technically called "GM OEM venting gas cap" on moderndaymuscle.com (or some site like that). Again, technically, it does vent... inward. It lets fresh air in but nothing out, that was the purpose of the charcoal canister. So, no ECM, no canister purge.

The majority of the knowledgible posters and comments I read pretty much all said the same thing about the air flow of these tanks. The cap and UFO thing let air in; the canister line is the only way out.

That said, I figured 4 ways to potentially solve the problem:
1) run a hose from the hard line out to your front fender (which many folks seem to like to do)
2) wire the solenoid to a rocker switch and purge the canister yourself (not as much fun as arming a nitrous switch)
3) get ahold of a carburated canister and vent valve and plumb that up

Here's what I did:
4) remove the pressure relief valve that used to be connected to the canister; run a fuel line from the hard vent line coming off of the sending unit; plug the line into the pressure relief valve that previously ran into the canister; then run another small length of tubing up to the opening of the filler neck.
With this method, a)you maintain a proper tank pressure b) the vapors vent where a venting gas cap would have vented them, away from ignition sources and POINTED TOWARD THE BACK OF THE CAR. I have run this setup for a couple of very hot days. I have NO excess buildup of pressure in the tank, verified by removing the gas cap. I get the same woosh I got before, no fuel bubbling sound, no tank expanding/collapsing sound, and (the best part) the garage does not smell like gas. At all.

I used about 3 feet of standard fuel line (not fuel injection line), the stock pressure relief valve, and a couple hose clamps to make this. At first, I figured I had bought the wrong kind. However, if you blow into the pressure relief valve, you'll note that it doesn't take much to open the valve, maybe 2-3 psi, which this fuel line can easily handle.

I am pleased with this method simply because it's not dumping fumes anywhere near an ignition source and I get to keep the correct fuel tank pressure.

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

The subject of this installment of my installation antics is on the little bit of "tuning" I have had to do. After hours of just driving around, I only found 2 (maybe 3) areas that needed help:
1) I had a stumble or pause off idle when I'd either blip the throttle or launch the car
2) I also had (which I previously thought I had fixed) a stumble putting the hammer down while rolling down the road, mostly in high gear.
3) Decel backfires, simply letting off the gas or downshifting.

I will say, the backfires were better initially with EZ than with the stocker. However, after fixing the things that mattered (the other 2 items), the backfires are back as they were with the stock ECM. I'm going to leave that alone, I like the way it drives now.

What I will describe, is my thought process and the values that I worked with in the EZ handheld unit.

Off Idle Stumble: I started with the preset value of 13.8. I watched the AFR as I'd blip the throttle and noticed it leaned a bit. I added more fuel (13.6) and the stumble became a bog. I took fuel out (13.9 and then 14.0) and found the sweet spot. This left me with a horrible stumble on upshift (well, only 1-2 because I wasn't going to try and hop the car at 30 mph to try a 2-3).

Hammer Down/Upshift Bog: Fix one thing, mess up another. This wasn't even an issue until I messed with the idle. It was smooth utilizing the preset 14.0 cruise AF. When I changed the idle to 14.0, that left both idle and cruise and the same ratio, my car didn't like that. I took a bit more cruise fuel out and made for an even better launch but the shifts were horrible and WOT was terrible as well. I moved the cruise back up to 13.9 and moderated the issues I just mentioned. The last parameter I worked with was Accel Fuel. The instructions specifically say NOT to mess with this until you have driven the car and worked with the other functions first as a little change here will affect everything. So I saved it for last. I added fuel (from 00 to 01) and that produced the all around worst combo for every situation. I took fuel out (-01) and bingo, everything worked cohesively. No launch hesitation, WOT transition was smooth in all gears, in all RPM ranges.

Summary:
Idle A/F start (13.8) end (14.0)
Cruise A/F start (14.0) end (13.9)
Accel Fuel start (00) end (-01)

You'll note the very small changes that I made to achieve my results. I advise against large swings because, for me, if I get too far off I'd most likely get lost. All that is left really is a few more test runs to let the changes mesh and then I'm going to the dyno.

The problem now is my fuel pump fades out after an hour or so. I'm going to work on that for however long before I hit the rollers. My testing is pretty much on hold until then. Hope this info helps someone someday.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

Glad you discovered that all too often a stumble is caused by too much fuel as opposed to too little.

QUICKCHICKEN

iTrader: (12)

after reading this, its looking like im going to have to back my accell down to -01 due to bumping up my fuel pressure to 50 psi. when i was at 00 and 44 psi the car drove flawless. it has a slight stumble now but nothing major.

88TPI406GTA

Please keep the updates coming...I, for one, appreciate them.

IMHO, what makes threads like this one valuable is finding out "the rest of the story". Whenever we typically see car product reviews, etc...it only involves the beginning of the install/use of product and rarely do we hear the rest of the implementation or how it works over time. We obviously don't hear about a product's shortcomings from the manufacturer

I still like the idea of self-tuning EFI, even with no spark control...at this price point.

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

Hi folks. I've been gone for a while trying to track down my fuel pressure loss issue. After some time, I think I have a handle on it. That doesn't mean I solved it, just means I know how to avoid it. Anywho, if you'd like to read about my trials & tribulations, go here:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...regarding.html
...or here...https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...hing-else.html

With that in mind, I am going to postpone my dyno trip until the weather cools down a bit. Here in RVA, that is most likely mid-September or afterwards. I must say again, the handheld readout (in conjunction with my FP gauge) really helped me get a handle on what may be my issue. It still drives & makes great power. If anyone else is considering this upgrade, please start a post of your own, the more folks doing this the easier it will be for the rest of us going down the line.

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

Just a quick update. This time I really have found and fixed the fuel pressure loss problem; turned out to be a faulty fuel pump. My comments in the thread above were wrong too, still just grasping at straws then.

Anywho, I will be going to the dyno in the next few weeks and I can FINALLY get some hard evidence for or against the EZ-EFI.

On a side note, I had been trying to located the source of a bouncy idle that just wouldn't stop. After the fuel pump replacement, that problem never showed it's head again. The car runs smooth and runs hard. So much fun to be driving the old guy again instead of troubleshooting.

I'll be in touch...happy motoring.

88TPI406GTA

Glad to hear you found the problem

Do you have an in-car fuel pressure guage? Just curious if the pump was showing any other symptoms.

Can't wait for dyno numbers...

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

No, I have one I hook up to the rail. The EZ-EFI is a WB O2 so I get real-time numbers there on the hand-held. Couple that with the pressure gauge and it is certainly a wealth of information.

QUICKCHICKEN

iTrader: (12)

kool deal !!

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

Finally got to run the EZ system on the dyno and I'm quite happy with the results. Read the full post here:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/dfi-...stock-ecm.html

In short, I gained 22hp/32tq at the wheels, ran 304hp/431tq. Calculated for DLL, that's 357hp/507tq. Not bad at all I'd say. Doubters will keep on doubting, but I for one couldn't be happier with the EZ system. My ultimate goal is to have a 400hp/450tq n/a TPI with the head & cam swap. For the next year or so, I'll be working on other stuff so that will have to wait.

Now for the good stuff. After dialing in all AFRs (idle & cruise were done on the street), I found my car likes a tight area to run properly, does not like to dump in loads of fuel at all. My A/F values are as follows:
idle 14.0
cruise 13.9
WOT 13.8

I found that to be interesting. Quite honestly, a point in either direction lost a hp or two. I had it as high as 13.0 and that was so rich it bogged out and we had to abort the run. Since fixing the fuel pump, the car runs as smooth as anything made today. As advertised, the more I drive it, the smoother it gets and the smaller the O2 corrections. In steady state cruising, it's not uncommon to see it flux only from -1 to +1; stays right around the target. I adjusted the idle again and the bounce is pretty much gone. When I clutch, it will flux twice then settle in at 900rpm for idle. Backfires have plagued me as well until recently, I still get them but much less frequently now. Last, my goal was to end up (after head/cam/everything) with 1hp per cube. I achieved that with the EZ & bolt-ons with head/cam still to come. I may just get the 400 horse TPI! Love this system!

xch3no2

It's good to hear that with the whole development staff y'all managed a modest but respectable increase, very happy for you.

More power will likely require some more hard parts, or good port job.

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

Development staff? Sorry son, it's just me here.

xch3no2

Oops? There is another one on here struggling with the EZ system

Your not the guy who works for comp, (sorry, is that the quickchicken?)

Anyway, glad to hear that after all that money and work your FI has improved.

I did much more for a lot less money with the EBL.

Ain't your son, I am "The KING's" blood.

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

I figured it was QC that you were talking about. He & I have been sharing notes a bit though.

I know that the knock on EZ is that it's somewhat limited in what it can do, and I knew that going in. I've said this from the git-go, I don't need and don't want control over every parameter that controls the car. My goal was to have a system that's "basically" plug and play. I have no qualms about letting the computer figure out fuel/spark maps and I feel like running a vac advance distributor is just fine for my application. I do not claim to be as advanced as some of the folks out there; this is my weekend warrior and street machine. In all likelihood, it will never see a track day. I know that if I wanted to delve into "real tuning", I'd have gotten one of the other aftermarket systems. I wanted to build my engine and let the computer get the most out of it that it can. One hp to cube was my goal, now I can go for real power numbers with the head & cam swap.

I'm not knocking EBL, XFI, or the Holley unit; you want to micro manage, go right ahead. I do not. I do expect the same courtesy from those users, which you seem to be giving me.

bvlahov

iTrader: (1)

That WOT afr looks way too lean. Holding WOT on highway with that afr would burn the engine for sure.
Also, bogging on 13.0 afr doesn't seem right.
Looks like you might have some other issues.

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

I thought about it this morning and you guys are right, that does seem a bit lean. I thought for sure I'd be in the 12s. What I was describing is that when you mash the gas in 3rd gear, the car stumbles and then lights up. My erroneous thinking was too much fuel.

Sooo the light bulb finally clicks on for me this morning. There's an adjustment for that stumble; I've already used it for off-idle stumble and realize I need to use it here. It's the "accel fuel" parameter. I could kick myself for not thinking of it yesterday. Right now, it's at -1 (needs to go lower); I'm going out to the industrial park today and try some test runs from in the 13.0 or less range. I bet I can un-stumble it thataway.

If I can get the car to like the richer WOT ratio, I'll take the car right back to the dyno and get some better numbers.

I do recall in the magazines that a 50hp gain is not out of the question. If I get another 25, I'd be on target with the magazine engines (which would give me 390hp or so on the engine)

Also of note; that I am running 500+ foot pounds through a WC T5. Been babying the hell out of it too!

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

After testing (and getting some strange looks from the folks who work in the park), I got the stumble to go away. I tested removing accel fuel from each ratio from 12.8 thru 12.2. My theory is this: the 13.8 was so close to the cruise ratio, that's why it didn't stumble, the -1 I was using for the previous tune took out enough fuel for 13.8. I adjusted down to -4 (12.8-12.6) and -5 (12.5-12.3) and -6 (wow) for 12.2. I see the trend and I understand it. Car still runs good off idle so I'm not losing the streetability either (almost runs better).

I came home and called my dyno guy, but he had a twin turbo Nissan rolling at that moment. No two ways about it, I'm going back either this week or next.

I hate brain farts.

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

Seems each time I thought I figured something out in this post, I found out it didn't work. Here's the link to the post where I actually did figure stuff out.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/dfi-...ml#post5605547