Just trying to learn as much as i can.

Set up.

LO3
EBL
Intake Manifold
Intake
adjustable FPR
TPI pump
14 PSI fuel pressure.

feel like my VE tables look like ****. Still did 8-9 VE learns so far. Engine runs great but feel it could have more power unlocked. Just started messing with the spark maps, added .5* over the entire main table with no knock counts, so should i just keep going up until i do? and adjust my PE also?

Also still in the NB sensor and getting a 900+ mV on my NB at idle.

Ive got other mods that need to go as well.

Hooker headers/y pipe
TT-1 Wideband
few others im forgetting.

Suggestions? information? Everything else except the LM values is stock(stock bin that came with ECM).

 

Stock bin?? What bin is loaded?

Your timing strategy will work fine, stay 2*-4* out of knock.

PE is probably the last fuel trim to adjust, after getting cold/start idle/lower rpm and AE setup.

Use a conservative setting for cell smoothing when learning.

 

Tried to post this last night but the site was down

SA Main Table



VE Table



The timing adjustment is working good, no real noticeable difference i dont think, but no spark counts. How should i go about adding more timing? .5* increase across the board until knock counts or what?

And i have some issues with my VE table, check it out.

 

can i get some input in that VE table.

 

Either you are not getting good coverage during the VE LEarn. Or the AE is off. Or both.

It looks like the 400 RPM, 20 KPa corner is high. Making a bathtub shape. This is normal and should be lowered and flattened. See the Intro to Tuning Part 2. It shows what should be done.

RBob.

 

You can use/change the smoothing factor in EBL as well as TP. If I get hits in most cells but none in a close by cell somettimes I will manually change that cell with no hit. Keep in mind changing temps will affect your tables look. And again if a no hit I will manually + or -....

 

Thanks i started to smooth the VE table and wondering if my progress so far is headed in the right direction.





Also i think my AE is fine, with the auto trans i find it hard to fill get a steady RPM for some cells during VE learns. Installing the TT-1 Wideband with the hooker headers next week, cant wait.

Also, im thinking of adding more spark advance since the .5* advance across the board didnt show any knock counts, sound good or no?

Getting a cleaned and flow tested set of injectors back from WitchHunter this week too,looks like my drivers side injector isnt spraying well, at idle it simply "leaks" fuel, doesnt have a nice visible spray like the other.

 

Think the vehicles running better with that VE table, but i think this injector is causing some problems.

Anyone have any suggestions on AE set up? followed your guide Rbob on dynamicefi website but i think my AE might actually be off. Get a little bog on initial acceleration sometimes. reading rich when it does

 

Don't mess with the SA until the fueling is squared away.

Once you get the injectors back in see if the fueling changed. You will then know whether the injector was an issue or not.

For the AE there is five columns of data in the log file dump to aid in tuning. When in closed loop can also observe the INT during an AE event. If it drops like a rock then there is too much AE. A slight increase in the INT is OK and better then having it drop.

There are some decent threads on the DIY_PROM board here about AE. See the Tuning Guide Book sticky for links to some of those threads.

RBob.

 

Been a little busy.

Hey Rbob ive read through your tuning articles a few times now since ive installed EBL and its been a big help.

So, put in the newly cleaned injectors and had an issue. at 600 RPM at about 30-40 kpa i think it was, i got a pulsing engine RPM. would bounce up to 1000RPM and then back down to 500, and then stop once the engine was at idle.

So i swapped bins back to EBLs factory LO3 bin (2017) and then did three ve learns, here is the ve table, low speed, from the last learn, HUGE difference. Thoughts?

Oh yeah back to factory SA settings. Will go back to increasing it after i get some opinions from you guys

 

I'd say that you hit the nail right on the head. When the VE table ends up like this, the VE and the AE is about as good as it gets.

Now is the time to crowd the higher RPM & load. Just to be sure that there is enough fuel up top. Once that is verified can move on to seeing what spark advance changes will do.

RBob.

 

Ok will do. Took a lot of time to get that right, but was well worth it.

That VE table that i originally posted should of been a clear sign to me something was wrong. Was $50 to get that set of injectors cleaned, well worth it. Makes a huge difference.

Rbob where do you suggest i add more fuel? im getting a pretty good mV reading from my NB and im getting pretty consistent BLM and INT readings. Think im getting enough fuel on WOT but havent messed with SA yet to check for any knock counts

 

High speed table. looks like i do need more fuel up top

 

More of what I meant by enough fuel up top is the delivery. Using the WB reported AFR and the injector DC%, make sure that the engine isn't running out of injector. At WOT once the injector DC% goes above 85% need more flow.

This would be at the proper 12.8:1 AFR. If the AFR is lower, say 12.0:1, and the DC% is over 85%, that doesn't count.

RBob.

 

Got it. Heading out again tonight to see what im working with.

Feels like a completely different engine now. Its pretty impressive actually. honestly i didnt think this little 305 could move the way it does now.

 

couple things. Made a few changes, Rbob followed the instructions on your site on tuning with AE(MAP PW and TPS PW) and then used the utility tool to calculate my BPC vs VAC with my 14psi fuel pressure. Heres what i got with one VE learn i did tonight.

VE Table Low Speed


TPS PW Changes


MAP PW Changes


BPC vs VAC changes based off utility


Original VE table


original TPS PW


Original MAP PW


Original BPC vs VAC



Wondering if those changes in the VE table(low speed) are good changes or no?

What do you think?

EDIT: Small error, those are all the original AE(TPS PW AND MAP PW) settings, i must of not applied my changes on those. Weird

55lb injectors at 14psi = 57.1lb.

55/57.1 = .96

So i take that and multiply it by the AE MAP PW and AE TPS PW right?

The VE table is good though? or a negative change?

 

That is the math I use.

Yes the VE is coming along, it looks like your making good progress.

 

Thanks. Should I stick with that original ve table or go with the learn that's a little less flat?

Also is running my BLMs at 135 at freeway speeds and about 1700 rpm ok? Forgot the manifold pressurr

 

edit: figured it out.

ill be back in a few days with some more VE/AE questions. Then on to SA and trying to find MBT with the timing tables.

 

This should help you get started, playing with the SA table https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...9-post116.html

 

Thats for a 350 though right? and why is there so much timing at 400RPM and 20/30/40 KPA?

Ive been adjusting my spark table with good progress so far. Ill post up tables when im back in town. A noticeable difference in power output and no knock. Having trouble at getting enough fuel at WOT though. any suggestions? 14 psi and cleaned 55lb injectors at 85% DC at WOT around 3800 RPMS

 

No, for LO3, though LO5 could have the same SA table, you can verify that easy.

Around 2° SA difference is not much, factory probably set it a little higher down there to reduce the chance of stalling.

If using the WB02, could increase FP to obtain somewere between 13.2 and 13.4 (AFR) @ WOT, keeping DC under 85%.

 

Hows that SA table work out for you? Pretty decent advancement in some areas. Might try it on my engine.

for example

yours:
1400 RPM 40 KPA 21.09

mine:
1400 RPM 40 KPA 16.06

 

I smoothed it aout in 2 minutes, added a little SA for efficiency and maintained the wery conservative WOT SA. This was an exemple for our buddy robertfrank, some years ago (can click on the post for more detailed information).

I already had swapped in the LT1 cam and had done everything except heads to the LO3 wenn I got EBL, so mine was more aggressive.

 

Copy that. Still working on my SA tables. Ill post them up when i think ive made some real progress. Keep hitting walls.

Can i get some VE table suggestions? Working on my smoothing abilities. Can i get some feedback

VE learn with the AE adjusted


VE learn with ae adjusted, and smoothed with .15 setting

 

High Speed


High speed .15 smoothed

 

If VE learns show between +-3 of correction, then it is perfect.

 

Sure thats an LO3 spark table?

at 1000RPM 30kpa the factory advance is 11.95 and yours is 17.56?


Im running out of fuel at WOT. DC is hitting 89% and the car bogs and goes lean. already running 14 PSI. Safe to up it?

 

As long as the pump keeps up can go to 30 psi.

RBob.

 

Copy that. Thought it might be better to go with bigger injectors? Or do you think it'll be enough to up the fp more? Just running cleaned 55lbs now.

 

Why not try the 55's with higher FP? If still >85% DC go to plan B.

FIC injectors sells refurbished 75's.

 

im going to. Going to swap out fuel filter as well, and think i might get an electric FP gauge, think itd be valuable info to have in the car when tuning.

Did another run today at WOT and DC hit right under 85% but didnt reach it. Kinda weird. going to up it to 15psi and see what happens after a few VE learns and other changes.

Upping the FP 1 psi, how much of a difference does it make on this TBI fuel system?

 

I dont think I can answer w/o knowing if the 1 lb inc is like from 13 lbs to 14 or 20 lns to 21.

Also upping FP by say 10% might result in an increase in dropping the VE table 10%. Not so.
I recently upped FP from 23 to 26 which was 13% due to 100%DC. I pulled 10% out of the VE table B4 I datalogged. I went from 128(+ or -3), which I had at 23lbs, bit I found my VE table needed 10% more reduction. My learns had pulled that much more fuel.

So upping FP is not a direct correlation to VE. I am pretty sure the VE table is used for all lookups like choke, crank, AE etc.

 

Well i got my fuel issue fixed. Up FP to 16 psi, big difference. relearning in the ve tables now.

Had a question about SA again(trying to learn as much as i can while applying it)

My initial SA is 6* BTDC. So when my Main SA table reads 11.57 at 600rpm 30 or so kPA my WUD reads right around 18-19*. Thats because my initial SA is adding 6* across the entire table correct?

 

The initial SA is taken care of in the WUD display. In the end the ECM subtracts out the initial, with the physical position of the distributor adding it back in.

There are other factors that affect the actual SA at any given time. At idle there is idle compensation SA (adds or subtracts). There is also CTS & vacuum SA that can also add or subtract dependent upon the engine's coolant temperature and intake manifold vacuum.

RBob.

 

So in other words, it subtracted but the fact that the distributor is mechanically 6* advance, adds a 6* advance across the table. think thats how it works?

Copy that. Have to admit tuning this on the street is a real pain. Advancing the timing until finding the best possible timing advance based upon "feel" and knock counts is tough. Stopping, adjusting,ignition off,flash,ignition on,do it again.

Question, flashing a new tune with the engine running, safe? engine runs REALLY rough during the flash, and have a few knock counts when its done, low counts but thinking its either real or ghost knock.



Another question...Selected my entire VE table(low) and did a .10 smooth on it. Went did more ve learning, it immediatley pulled -6 from my idle range. 500-600RPM 30 or so KPA. But added 3 to 4 around the rest of the learn.

Meaning that it was too much fuel down low, but its still thirsting for more fuel during acceleration and tip in. thinking that a BLM/INT of 131/134 during heavily accel. almost WOT is ok? a little lean but enough to make power and not move into the dangerous side.

 

Wiring an electronic pressure sender to the EBL, & configuring it as a user device for display in the WUD & logs is the shizit, I need no stinking gauges.

Edit: All post #36 sounds good. I prefer to flash dead engine & cycle the ignition, but running shouldn't hurt anything, knocks during flash I believe to be insignificant.

Beware EBL learn trying to cut too much idle fuel, find it's happy place then exclude idle from learn in settings.

 

When it pulls the fuel back out of idle range im sitting at 128/128 though even though the engine seems to idle noticeably poorer.

I agree about the ebl post,rbob did a great job on this product. However since im not always plugged in with my laptop think a fp gauge in the car would be useful.



Ill try flashing while the engine running from now on. Shut down and firing back up all the time is probably worse.

 

I've been idling in open loop and I find it wwwwwwaaaayyyy better. The WBO2 learns it pretty good and it runs at 850rpm on the spot, the AFR reads a bit rich right now. Idling in closed loop is painful. Surging, alternator slowing down, lights dimming... Open loop idling is keeping me sane at the moment.

 

I dont believe RBob recommends flashing while engine running.

as you are likely aware KC could be mechanical. Need to rule that out.

what is the A/F at idle OL?

Keep in mind you can be Ol as well at speeds < what ever you care. Check how car responds to OL while driving slowly <10 mph. OL may help there as well.

 

Cant tell you what A/F is since the wideband is attached to the hookers which are not on the car atm . But at idle im sitting about 122/124 BLM/INT.

And ill try OL like you suggest, think itll make idle a little more comfortable, low speeds as well.



New info.

Had an issue with the throttle cable, fixed it. dont think i was hitting TRUE WOT, now i am.

from a 20mph roll, to WOT injector DC hit 102DC. Yeah. Need a lot more fuel up top. 102DC then down to 89. Not sure what to do? my "homemade" adjustable FPR is maxed out at 16PSI. Think i need bigger injectors?

These were just cleaned/flow tested but i think bigger injectors would solve this issue.

Suggestions? and WOT suprised the hell out of me, gave me a little scare,was a little impressed until i ran out of fuel lol

 

whats up guys? Am i ordered a new FPR or am i going with 55LB injectors instead? Need to throw them on order asap if i need them.

DC still hitting 100% at WOT

 

At 16psi likely your pump is maxed out.

These springs allow you to raise pressure,

http://stores.ebay.com/TBIPARTS_Regu...=p4634.c0.m322

 

Think a new spring will be the best bet? Or 55lbI injectors

 

Can go either way. Although note that the stock 305 injectors are 55#/hr. A set of 350 injectors are 61#/hr for most of them. GM also used 65#/hr and 68#/hr injectors in the 350's, but in the later years.

I ended up using a set of 61#/hr injectors at stock fuel pressure in an LG4 a number of years ago.

RBob.

 

Think ill go the injector route. Will leave room for growth. And there's a lot of misleading info out there. Cfm website listed them at 40lbwork an hour. But I've been tuning under the assumption they are 55

 

I believe 1994 and 1995 truck TBI were 40 lbs at high fuel pressure(32?). I once owed a pair.

 

I think the best way to go about it is to check the part number on top of the injector. If your do indeed have 40lb injectors, let me know as I have a spare 55lb set that i took off my truck after putting on the 65lbs.

Also,

I see what normal VE tables are suppose to look like now. I have dips and a huge bathtub in mine. I don't really know where to start.

 

Really. Hmm. I just think its strange that im running out of fuel at WOT. 109DC%. Also my TPS and DC share a relationship(they should). TPS opens more because throttle angle is increased and injector DC matches it almost exactly. 16% open, 17DC. Almost perfect, dont think it should be this way. I know DC will increase because more air is entering the combustion chambers so more fuel is required, thats a given,but i dont think it should be that close. No wonder im running out of fuel at this PSI.

Dont want to up it anymore either. feel pretty confident tuning for 61lbhr injectors

No good.


Also bizzy bone if you want to PM me some info on your engine and maybe pics of your ve table ill try and help.

 

Could be the fuel pump? I would run a line to windshield or pass window and have a friend wittness the FP during WOT. I think 2 gear of 4 will place a max load WOT.

wont hurt to up FP. Any issue will show on idle quality which can be death with.

Have the injectors been cleaned? fic injectors does a good job...

Threre is a one step stronger fuel spring like 13-18 or so. topdownsolutions.