being as i could not locate any infromation on V8 assuies with DIS. i sent an email to motec. hopefully from what i read on there website the system they sell looks like a GM clone in both managemnet and harware. so with any luck and a fast response there should be a way to use the $8f code with a DIS on a V8. i know traxion was asking so im finding out. ill also get the crank trigger info from them as well.

if anybody has found any information about the assuie DIS please post it here.

 

Yep, found it in the DIY-EFI archives, and the FTP.

 

i looked for about a solid hr. i found nothing in the archives or the ftp. got some file names to share ?

 

None of our Aussie stuff ran V8 DIS ??? we have V6 DIS but no V8 , I looked at using a DIS module ( it does all the work not the pcm) from a northstar or the vette but it was too costly.

Motec uses there own hardware/software and the Motec pcm controls the ignition channelsand they dont use a DIS module but 4 normal modules.

There was some stuff on the diy site DIS_FOR_?? by BOB WOOTON - never had a chance to try it to see if it would work

 

hmm i was under the impersion that the assuie had a dis v8. so the northstar v8 does and a few other gm apps ?? ill take a look into it and see what turns up. push come to shove there could be a way to build a v8 dis box but thats not gonna be to easy to manage. in the mean time ill figure out how to get $8f to run on a dizzy and deposti the knowledge hear for people to use.

peace out.

 

Long Whistle, an hour.
Wow, and solid hour at that.
Hmm, sounds like this might get into serious investigation, and take maybe a couple Solid Hours.

Instant gratification ain't part of the game if your serious about Prom Burning.

 

[QUOTE][Long Whistle, an hour.
Wow, and solid hour at that.
Hmm, sounds like this might get into serious investigation, and take maybe a couple Solid Hours.

Instant gratification ain't part of the game if your serious about Prom Burning./QUOTE]


interesting. how very interesting. i was looking over the ftp and found only v6 and 4cyl info. i was reffering spceifically to v8 assuie dis. according to tomcat who is a aussie they didnt have it. so i will move forward. thanx for the non help.

 

ok update. i did a bit of digging on the cadilac northstar v8 dis and the aurora dis. it look like it should swap upto the 2000 model year at least for use with a p4 ecm like a $8f code. everything is external. what i dont know at this point is how the crank trigger is laid out or how the i/o on the module is configured. ill swing by a caddy dealer and see what they say and see if i can beg a schemtic out of somebody there.

tomcat thanx for the leads on the northstar v8 stuff could work out to be something usefull.

 

I was thinking of using the Northstar DIS box a while back.

I have schematics for it, but never got around to the junk yard to pull one.

From what I was looking at, it has the same control lines as a typical Dist module.

I never got around to putting one on my bench to test it out and verify the inputs and outputs.

My first offhand guess would be that the crank and cam signals are just buffered through the box to feed the ecm and the DIS box controls coil selection without ecm intervention.

There are some sensor issues to deal with.

Keep us posted on what you find.

 

ok what ive found so far is that the caddy uses a 24x signal. it uses 2 crank pickups and one cam pickup. it also has a 4x output. i would imagine that the 4x output could be used as the ref but it also has a ref pulse line?? being that the caddy is sqeutianl at least thats the way the schematics i got looked it posses some issues.

what happens if we dont have a secondary crank sensor ? also what happen if there no cam sensor.

ill take a stab. if the DIS module donest get the second crank sensor it cuts back the 24x pulse. in turn not recieving the cam positions doe the same thing. what i think this leave us with is a 6x or 8x signal. the big question is will the ecm be able to run the DIS withonly the one crank trigger and will the module let it ???

if GM was even half gracious it should run with only a crank sensor. but the big issue is wil it allow for EST control ?? ands then again which crank sensor do you delte ? a or b ?? if somebody has a test bench id love to here some inputs as i dont.

but this is al the info/speculation i have at the time.

 

So this would be what?.
3 steps less then no help?.
Least you've learned there is no v8 DIS in OZ.

You have to have a Cam Synch for any DIS or CNP to function. Might look at the hardware end to see if there are any answers.

 

ive already had my hands on a caddy dis module. it still fire in pair of 2 in a waste fire confgiruation like a noraml DIS module does. the thought i have is that the moduel is doing a bit of signal conditioning for the ecm. what i need to do is build a setup to find out for sure. i dont really have the time right now to experiment but would be more then willing to do any info gathering i can. ive tried to get some ground work together but so far its been a nogo. this is all the info i have at the moment. i do know some people over at the GM tech center in Novi Michigan so i might be able to pull some teeth and get a bit farther. its all very speculative right now. the best way is to have somebody with a known good ecm bench try running this thing with only a crank trigger pulse and see where it goes. the last peice to the jigsaw puzzle is the tooth count on the trigger wheel itself. im totaly not even having a clue on this one. ive seen 12 24 and 9 tooth mentioned. ill dig up what i can and post it here for refernce. if somebody has an enlightening question to be asked please do. sometime its harder to come up with the questions then the answers.

 

24x is all that is needed for DIS, the N* provides a 24x signal from the ICM the same way any GM DIS coil pack would (V6 or V8).
It does not matter if it uses two crank sensors to do it, or 5 for that matter, the 24x signal is STILL the end result from the ICM to the PCM!!
Cam sensors are only used to sync the sequential injection (they have NOTHING to do with operating a DIS ignition), so who gives a heck what the hell x they are ?? Just use DIS capable code that does not use SFI, like the 3.4 DOHC $DF (5spd or 4TxxE), and the cam sensor will no longer be relevant. Use a 305 cid V8 memcal (for KS and limp capability), and change the cyl select from 6 to 8. It does not get much easier than that...

I would love to see someone dump a set of decent low cr pistons in a N*, and then bolt on a huge turbo. The $8f would be great for something like this with a 5 spd behind it. Maybe I will even give it a shot for my next little project.

 

Are you for real Pal? If you have nothing to add, stay out of the thread.

I don't care for the extra chaff.


Need4speed

 

i got the email from somebody on the diy-efi mailing list the N* dis uses the 2 crank sensors. however the cam sync signal is just being pushed thru. from what i got in the email it was pretty obvious that the DIS module with the way the crank trigger is laid out will need the 2 crank sensor however. mimicing that stock dis wheel could be tough as well. im still digging.

 

The operation of DIS is quite similar to operation of the
C(3)I system. Systems consist of 4 ignition coils, ignition control
module (located under coil pack), a camshaft position sensor, 2 Hall Effect crankshaft position sensors, necessary wiring, and the ignition control and fuel metering portion of the PCM.

Spark is timed by a signal sent from a crankshaft position
sensor mounted through side of engine block instead of from a
crankshaft position sensor mounted at crankshaft pulley (such as
C(3)I). This signal is received by PCM (through ignition control
module) and is used to trigger each coil at the proper time.

See appropriate CRANKSHAFT POSITION SENSOR under INPUT DEVICES. As with the C(3)I system, each cylinder is fired consecutively with the cylinder opposite it in the firing order. Cylinder No. 1 is paired with No. 4, No. 2 with No. 5, No. 3 with No. 8 and No. 6 with No. 7.
Each pair of cylinders is fired by its own ignition coil.

Crankshaft position sensors ("A" and "B") are mounted on side
of engine block between cylinders No. 4 and 6. The crankshaft position
sensor protrudes through the side of engine block to within .05" (1.3
mm) of an internally-mounted crankshaft reluctor ring. Sensor position
is not adjustable.

The reluctor is a piece of metal, cast with the crankshaft.
The reluctor has 24 evenly spaced notches machined into it and an
additional 8 unevenly spaced notches for a total of 32. As crankshaft
rotates, notches in reluctor ring change the magnetic field at the tip
of position sensor. This creates an induced AC voltage signal in the
sensor windings, resulting in RPM reference signals which are sent to
PCM by the ignition control module. This allows PCM to compute
crankshaft position and RPM.

IGNITION TIMING SYSTEMS
Ignition Timing Advance
At engine speeds less than 400 RPM, the ignition control
module controls spark advance by triggering coils at a predetermined
interval based only on engine speed. At engine speeds greater than 400
RPM (EST mode), the PCM takes over control of the ignition timing.
PCM controls ignition timing based upon input signals from
the engine RPM reference line (ignition control module), engine
coolant temperature sensor, intake air temperature sensor, throttle
position sensor, knock sensor, vehicle speed sensor, and the MAF or
MAP sensor.

The PROM portion of the PCM has a programmed spark advance
curve based on engine speed. Spark timing is calculated by PCM
whenever an ignition pulse is present. Spark advance is controlled
only when engine is running (not during cranking). Input signal values
are used by PCM to modify PROM information, increasing or decreasing
spark advance to achieve maximum performance with minimum emissions.


When an engine speed signal of about 400 RPM is received by
the PCM, PCM considers engine to be running and applies 5
volts to the ignition control module on the by-pass wire.
This causes ignition control module to switch timing control
over to the variable timing control circuit in the PCM. An
open or grounded by-pass circuit will set a related
diagnostic trouble code in PCM memory. The engine will run at
base timing plus a small amount of advance.
* EST
When 5 volts is present on the by-pass circuit and ignition
control module has turned control of engine timing over to
PCM, the PCM advances or retards spark on this circuit based
on calculations involving the reference signal and other
sensor input signals. If base timing is incorrectly set,
entire advance curve will be incorrect.
* Ground
This is the reference ground circuit. It is grounded at
distributor and PCM, ensuring no voltage drop occurs in the
EST circuit which could affect ignition operation.
* Reference (RPM)
Alternating current signals from the pick-up coil (HEI
distributor), PM generator (DIS and IDI) or Hall Effect
sensors (C(3)I) are converted by the ignition control module
converter to digital signals for use by PCM. This supplies
RPM data and crankshaft position reference to PCM. Because
signal on this circuit is used as an injector trigger
reference, engine will not run if circuit is open or
grounded.


Looks like 2 crank sensors,one reluctor. One sensor is a backup. This should not be too hard to adapt to the back of a harmonic balancer.... Find a crank and measure the timing marks on it.
The ICM/PCM does not care if the cank signal is 180 Deg out of phase. After all, it's a wasted spark setup.

I think this should be an easy adaptation.
Maybe I should adapt it to the front of the lower timing chain gear, and modify an aluminum cover to house the sensor(s)..

Need4speed.

 

Very real,
pass on reading the thread, if your soo sensitive.
Or are you now the list owner?.

Maybe you like instant answers too, but they don't always come that way.

I've been shouted down by the resident experts so now just give out hints. Have a nice day.

 

ill dig up the email., but the module needs the A & B crank sensors. apperently it uses the 24tooth sensor as a fine postion finder.


it counts 4 pulses on teh 24tooth reluctor and counts a 0 or 1 on the 8 tooth reluctor and based on the way the counts fall it determines TDC. plus it also counts the 8 notches. so if i had to take a stab it abosoluetly has to have the 8 tooth wheel but the 24tooth whell might be scondary. i would implement both and then try removing the 24 tooth wheel. still looks a bit tricky. ill see if there a way for me to try it out. no promises but ill dig about.

 

1) I don't like games.

2) Either tell or be quiet.

3) I never asked for a quick answer.


Stop "chain jerking" Bruce

I know you have a nice side..........

 

From the information I got off the Mitchell Cd's, it's one 32 tooth
ring, two sensors, one as a backup.


All that is needed now is to duplicate the ring (or crank grindings)
and test one out.

 

this is the email i recieved. i emailed him back about the pulse charts and asked a few more qeustions to fill in some blanks. im hoping that for you V8 guys some digging will help you all with this endevor. i dont currently have a v8 aside form my station wagon and its not efi its currently a q-jet with a ecm. its due for a change and so is that damn old's 307( i got a nice 355 SBC short block). but for me this will porve fuitless. i just figured i would help out. ill keep adding info as i dig.


sean out.

 

i have the pulse chart and i forwarded them if anybody else would like the pulse charts please email me and ill send themn over. im also looking around for the trigger whell patterns for both the a b crank sensors.

 

I got them. Thanks for the info.

I'm trying to locate a complete N* motor. Besides needing to know
the diameter of the reluctor wheel, I need to know the exact start
of tdc for the teeth of the wheel.

I would hate to be off by a few degrees if the tooth needs to be aligned with an edge, or mid tooth.