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05-01-2003, 08:29 AM
#201
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yeah I know the daignostic mode kicks in the fans etc, but it would be nice to know if the logging mode effect fuel, spark etc. Does it?
Funstick is the code reader isn't he........
Funstick is the code reader isn't he........
05-01-2003, 08:41 AM
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Yeah, Funstick could read the code to find EXACTLY what happens in the $6E when in ALDL mode. Also RBob if he had the $6E hack and the time to "dig in".
It's been a long time since I looked at the differences between regular operation, ALDL and Diagnostic Mode. I do know that there is NO "normal" operation for the $6E. Both modes have an effect on the engine's operation.
As I recall, in ALDL Mode it really only seemed to be idle that was affected. The MAF, LV8, injector PW and spark all seemed to be what I expected in WOT in ALDL Mode.
It's been a long time since I looked at the differences between regular operation, ALDL and Diagnostic Mode. I do know that there is NO "normal" operation for the $6E. Both modes have an effect on the engine's operation.
As I recall, in ALDL Mode it really only seemed to be idle that was affected. The MAF, LV8, injector PW and spark all seemed to be what I expected in WOT in ALDL Mode.
Last edited by Grim Reaper; 05-01-2003 at 08:44 AM.
05-01-2003, 08:45 AM
#203
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Yeah I would think it would be counter productive to change all sorts of major parameters for logging/data collection. I'm sure the main purpose for the logging ability was for diagnostics and not performance tuning.
05-01-2003, 09:04 AM
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Originally posted by ski_dwn_it
RBob,
You know I have been meaning to ask you guys this......I notice a pretty big difference in power when I have that data loggin, like it runs even richer, but I always thought it was me......
RBob,
You know I have been meaning to ask you guys this......I notice a pretty big difference in power when I have that data loggin, like it runs even richer, but I always thought it was me......
RBob.
05-01-2003, 09:39 AM
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Originally posted by ski_dwn_it
I'm sure the main purpose for the logging ability was for diagnostics and not performance tuning.
I'm sure the main purpose for the logging ability was for diagnostics and not performance tuning.
ALDL Mode is useable IMO for tuning. As I recall, it's affect was more noticeable at idle than anywhere else. Not as good as NORMAL Mode, but that is not an option on $6E.
05-01-2003, 12:27 PM
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Originally posted by ski_dwn_it
I'm using 6e and the arap base.
I'm using 6e and the arap base.
The ALDL mode does some strange stuff with IAC resets and no CCP which really doesn't matter. It does add SA though!!! When in ALDL mode the SA term at $C023 is added to whatever the calculated SA is. So zero that location (a single byte).
There is also some INTegrator stuff going on that is bypassed. Looks like the INT reset logic. So maybe the INT won't get reset when otherwise it would (check data log for INT = 128 when in PE).
Can enable EGR in prk/neut with TPS > XX%.
Closed loop timers bypassed (still goes closed loop).
Now DIAG mode is a whole different ball game. This may be the mode you are in when logging. The reason is that the SA is set to a steady value as defined by location $C021 (2 bytes). In ARAP it is 20 deg BTDC.
A little judicious code patching and all this funny stuff can go away leaving just data logging. . .
RBob.
05-01-2003, 12:49 PM
#208
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Car: 93 Caprice 9C1
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Originally posted by ski_dwn_it
First I never disagreed that you would run out of adjustment with MAF if you could get over 255 g/sec without envoking PE........go back and reread my posts. I was just pointing out its not necessary to worry about it since you can have PE to adjust the AFR once you do experience 255 g/sec, then I don't big a hairy bone what the air coming in is, I just add or subtract fuel from the PE AFR vs RPM.
First I never disagreed that you would run out of adjustment with MAF if you could get over 255 g/sec without envoking PE........go back and reread my posts. I was just pointing out its not necessary to worry about it since you can have PE to adjust the AFR once you do experience 255 g/sec, then I don't big a hairy bone what the air coming in is, I just add or subtract fuel from the PE AFR vs RPM.
Secondly, don't ask me stupid questions like if I heard of gears? Yeah I'm gonna swap out gear to check to see if I am able to reach 255 without envoking PE....lets get real.
1% throttle and wind the car all the way out, LOL. Yeah I would be going about 147 MPH by the time that happen, with 3.07 gears......maybe you, not me. I don't care to take out a whole family and leave mine behind....and how many times are you doing 100+ on the road and looking for driveability???? Real world situations fella.
Realize, your nearly 4 1/2 sec off the pace with me in the 1/4, that means you would be about 1/8 mile when I cross the finish line.....so before you start poking think next time.....
then I don't big a hairy bone what the air coming in is
05-01-2003, 12:58 PM
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Originally posted by RBob
As Glenn mentions there are two modes that the ECM can be in for 8192 baud: ALDL and DIAG. Of the two ALDL is the one you want.
The ALDL mode does some strange stuff with IAC resets and no CCP which really doesn't matter. It does add SA though!!! When in ALDL mode the SA term at $C023 is added to whatever the calculated SA is. So zero that location (a single byte).
There is also some INTegrator stuff going on that is bypassed. Looks like the INT reset logic. So maybe the INT won't get reset when otherwise it would (check data log for INT = 128 when in PE).
Can enable EGR in prk/neut with TPS > XX%.
Closed loop timers bypassed (still goes closed loop).
Now DIAG mode is a whole different ball game. This may be the mode you are in when logging. The reason is that the SA is set to a steady value as defined by location $C021 (2 bytes). In ARAP it is 20 deg BTDC.
A little judicious code patching and all this funny stuff can go away leaving just data logging. . .
RBob.
As Glenn mentions there are two modes that the ECM can be in for 8192 baud: ALDL and DIAG. Of the two ALDL is the one you want.
The ALDL mode does some strange stuff with IAC resets and no CCP which really doesn't matter. It does add SA though!!! When in ALDL mode the SA term at $C023 is added to whatever the calculated SA is. So zero that location (a single byte).
There is also some INTegrator stuff going on that is bypassed. Looks like the INT reset logic. So maybe the INT won't get reset when otherwise it would (check data log for INT = 128 when in PE).
Can enable EGR in prk/neut with TPS > XX%.
Closed loop timers bypassed (still goes closed loop).
Now DIAG mode is a whole different ball game. This may be the mode you are in when logging. The reason is that the SA is set to a steady value as defined by location $C021 (2 bytes). In ARAP it is 20 deg BTDC.
A little judicious code patching and all this funny stuff can go away leaving just data logging. . .
RBob.
Interesting stuff you laid out.....here is what I have seen and noticed. I am pretty certain that I am in aldl mode, not diag mode. Here is why. The fans are not on, like they are when dia mode is envoked, and the logs show SA past 20*....
However I have noticed that the PE doesn't always equal 128 when at WOT like it did when it was stock.....can you explain in a little more detail how I change that in the code. As well as the SA. I never messes with code patching etc. OR can I just do this in the edit hex in the pocket programmer software?
Any help would be appreciated.
05-01-2003, 01:20 PM
#210
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Kevm14,
we went though this all last week and at the beginning of this week.....go back and read it a few times, along with the other posts. You will understand better.
I was not trying to insult you with my before statements. I was just simply pointing out that your car and my car are two entirely different animals. What takes a good while on your car, for example, going through the RPM range, happens a matter of a few seconds for mine. You increase the peddle 2/3 to climb a steep grade, I increase mine from 1/8 to 3/16.
I have my PE set to around 60% throttle, so I would say that 99% of my driving is done in NON pe conditions...keep in mind, my car at 2500 RPMs is making more power than you car is anywhere in the RPM range, not to mention probably 3x as much torque. Its hard to realize till you drive it, then you would say ahhhhh, i see what your saying.
Other than the strip, I doubt very much my car will ever see WOT on the street....for the simple reason 1. You would simply burn the tires off it if you took out hard 2. At 55 MPH in 3rd gear you can make it smoke the tires, so image where you would be if you went WOT from say 1/4 throttle. (in the ditch most likely).
There is no on on this board in their right mind gonna tell me that they would run this car around on the street and on a regular basis be pulling 255 g/sec +. Sure it will do it in a blink of an eye, but either the tires would be up in smoke, or you would be going 100 MPH+.
That to me is not real life driving. On the strip is a whole different ballgame, not sure about you, but I am at WOT, 100% TP, and probably 255+ nearly instantly, but then PE is envoked and I let it take care of the AFR.
You have to use a little common sense when thinking about the entire situation. In the other sections of the log I provided, I am going 80 MPH with a steady 8% throttle, and you can see the RPMs and MPH climbing steadily.
My guess on the street is I use ~0%-40% throttle to go and will get their just as quick or nearly as quick as most other cars. Now I don't mean other cars at WOT. I posted a video of my car taking out on the TPIS section with full slicks on taking out on the road with 60% throttle. I spun ~65-70 feet up the road.
we went though this all last week and at the beginning of this week.....go back and read it a few times, along with the other posts. You will understand better.
I was not trying to insult you with my before statements. I was just simply pointing out that your car and my car are two entirely different animals. What takes a good while on your car, for example, going through the RPM range, happens a matter of a few seconds for mine. You increase the peddle 2/3 to climb a steep grade, I increase mine from 1/8 to 3/16.
I have my PE set to around 60% throttle, so I would say that 99% of my driving is done in NON pe conditions...keep in mind, my car at 2500 RPMs is making more power than you car is anywhere in the RPM range, not to mention probably 3x as much torque. Its hard to realize till you drive it, then you would say ahhhhh, i see what your saying.
Other than the strip, I doubt very much my car will ever see WOT on the street....for the simple reason 1. You would simply burn the tires off it if you took out hard 2. At 55 MPH in 3rd gear you can make it smoke the tires, so image where you would be if you went WOT from say 1/4 throttle. (in the ditch most likely).
There is no on on this board in their right mind gonna tell me that they would run this car around on the street and on a regular basis be pulling 255 g/sec +. Sure it will do it in a blink of an eye, but either the tires would be up in smoke, or you would be going 100 MPH+.
That to me is not real life driving. On the strip is a whole different ballgame, not sure about you, but I am at WOT, 100% TP, and probably 255+ nearly instantly, but then PE is envoked and I let it take care of the AFR.
You have to use a little common sense when thinking about the entire situation. In the other sections of the log I provided, I am going 80 MPH with a steady 8% throttle, and you can see the RPMs and MPH climbing steadily.
My guess on the street is I use ~0%-40% throttle to go and will get their just as quick or nearly as quick as most other cars. Now I don't mean other cars at WOT. I posted a video of my car taking out on the TPIS section with full slicks on taking out on the road with 60% throttle. I spun ~65-70 feet up the road.
05-01-2003, 01:32 PM
#211
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Originally posted by ski_dwn_it
Rrob,
Interesting stuff you laid out.....here is what I have seen and noticed. I am pretty certain that I am in aldl mode, not diag mode. Here is why. The fans are not on, like they are when dia mode is envoked, and the logs show SA past 20*....
However I have noticed that the PE doesn't always equal 128 when at WOT like it did when it was stock.....can you explain in a little more detail how I change that in the code. As well as the SA. I never messes with code patching etc. OR can I just do this in the edit hex in the pocket programmer software?
Any help would be appreciated.
Rrob,
Interesting stuff you laid out.....here is what I have seen and noticed. I am pretty certain that I am in aldl mode, not diag mode. Here is why. The fans are not on, like they are when dia mode is envoked, and the logs show SA past 20*....
However I have noticed that the PE doesn't always equal 128 when at WOT like it did when it was stock.....can you explain in a little more detail how I change that in the code. As well as the SA. I never messes with code patching etc. OR can I just do this in the edit hex in the pocket programmer software?
Any help would be appreciated.
You may not see the 20 deg while in DIAG mode on the scanner. It comes down to which SA value the scanner reports. If the scanner SA value includes the inital timing (as showing true crank degrees) then it won't show it as being 20 deg BTDC due to DIAG mode.
The scan tool gets both values (unlimited and limited SA) of which only one of will show that you are getting 20 deg BTDC.
The fans not being on should be enough but you may want to try it with out the engine running first. Oh, can also set locations $C021 & $C022 to 0 and see if the engine wants to run while data logging. If it almost doesn't want to then it is in DIAG mode.
If anything be sure to set the SA term at $C023 to 0. This is the ALDL mode add-in spark.
Note: If using a hex editor to patch the 0's into $C021, $C022 & $C023, the EPROM BIN locations are $0021, $0022 & $00023.
RBob.
05-01-2003, 01:54 PM
#212
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Originally posted by RBob
[B]I think that you may start to hate me
Don't hate you
You may not see the 20 deg while in DIAG mode on the scanner. It comes down to which SA value the scanner reports. If the scanner SA value includes the inital timing (as showing true crank degrees) then it won't show it as being 20 deg BTDC due to DIAG mode.
The scan tool gets both values (unlimited and limited SA) of which only one of will show that you are getting 20 deg BTDC.
The fans not being on should be enough but you may want to try it with out the engine running first.
are you saying to have the car loggin with just the key to the "on" position to verify the fans aren't on? That is what I have to do with the ease software. They recommend you boot up the logger, then turn the key to on, then start the car. My fans don't kick on. I assume this mean no diag mode, right? When I retrieve trouble codes in the software and the car is off, with the key on, I hear the fans kick on, then go back off when I close out of the program. That I assume is dia mode. Correct?
Oh, can also set locations $C021 & $C022 to 0 and see if the engine wants to run while data logging. If it almost doesn't want to then it is in DIAG mode.
If anything be sure to set the SA term at $C023 to 0. This is the ALDL mode add-in spark.
Note: If using a hex editor to patch the 0's into $C021, $C022 & $C023, the EPROM BIN locations are $0021, $0022 & $00023.
What is the easiest way to get these values changed to 0, all I have is tunercat, and my pocket programmer.
Thanks for the help.[\b]
RBob.
[B]I think that you may start to hate me
Don't hate you
You may not see the 20 deg while in DIAG mode on the scanner. It comes down to which SA value the scanner reports. If the scanner SA value includes the inital timing (as showing true crank degrees) then it won't show it as being 20 deg BTDC due to DIAG mode.
The scan tool gets both values (unlimited and limited SA) of which only one of will show that you are getting 20 deg BTDC.
The fans not being on should be enough but you may want to try it with out the engine running first.
are you saying to have the car loggin with just the key to the "on" position to verify the fans aren't on? That is what I have to do with the ease software. They recommend you boot up the logger, then turn the key to on, then start the car. My fans don't kick on. I assume this mean no diag mode, right? When I retrieve trouble codes in the software and the car is off, with the key on, I hear the fans kick on, then go back off when I close out of the program. That I assume is dia mode. Correct?
Oh, can also set locations $C021 & $C022 to 0 and see if the engine wants to run while data logging. If it almost doesn't want to then it is in DIAG mode.
If anything be sure to set the SA term at $C023 to 0. This is the ALDL mode add-in spark.
Note: If using a hex editor to patch the 0's into $C021, $C022 & $C023, the EPROM BIN locations are $0021, $0022 & $00023.
What is the easiest way to get these values changed to 0, all I have is tunercat, and my pocket programmer.
Thanks for the help.[\b]
RBob.
05-01-2003, 02:57 PM
#213
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Originally posted by ski_dwn_it
To edit the $C023 location (only one to worry about) I would use the pocket programer software. (I don't know if you can hex edit in TC, if so could use that).
Go to BIN address $23 and check the value. Should be $17. Change it to $00 and write the bin out. Will also need to update the checksum (read and then write in TC).
RBob.
05-05-2003, 07:04 AM
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Rbob,
You are a very patient man. Thank you for hanging around and teaching us. I only started reading this thread again because I saw your name as the last post- and more gems.
Can you please let me know why, "if using a hex editor to patch the 0's into $C021, $C022 & $C023, the EPROM BIN locations are $0021, $0022 & $00023."
Is this an offset because of the size chip he's using?
John
You are a very patient man. Thank you for hanging around and teaching us. I only started reading this thread again because I saw your name as the last post- and more gems.
Can you please let me know why, "if using a hex editor to patch the 0's into $C021, $C022 & $C023, the EPROM BIN locations are $0021, $0022 & $00023."
Is this an offset because of the size chip he's using?
John
05-05-2003, 09:32 AM
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Originally posted by JohnL
Rbob,
You are a very patient man. Thank you for hanging around and teaching us. I only started reading this thread again because I saw your name as the last post- and more gems.
Can you please let me know why, "if using a hex editor to patch the 0's into $C021, $C022 & $C023, the EPROM BIN locations are $0021, $0022 & $00023."
Is this an offset because of the size chip he's using?
John
Rbob,
You are a very patient man. Thank you for hanging around and teaching us. I only started reading this thread again because I saw your name as the last post- and more gems.
Can you please let me know why, "if using a hex editor to patch the 0's into $C021, $C022 & $C023, the EPROM BIN locations are $0021, $0022 & $00023."
Is this an offset because of the size chip he's using?
John
With the EPROM sitting in a burner/reader the addressed locations are the same as if looking at the BIN.
RBob.
05-10-2003, 01:40 AM
#216
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I was about to buy an ALDL serial cable for diagnostic link to my laptop.
I have the 165 ECM, sitting in a box its not in the car yet.
I know i need the craig moates software.
somone mentioned a 10K resistor. I have no idea what that is. Will i need that with my 165 to use my cable on my laptop?
and bland english please, this ECM language stuff is beginning to overwhelm me. i dont even know what a resistor is...
I have the 165 ECM, sitting in a box its not in the car yet.
I know i need the craig moates software.
somone mentioned a 10K resistor. I have no idea what that is. Will i need that with my 165 to use my cable on my laptop?
and bland english please, this ECM language stuff is beginning to overwhelm me. i dont even know what a resistor is...
05-10-2003, 04:00 AM
#217
Originally posted by Kingtal0n
I was about to buy an ALDL serial cable for diagnostic link to my laptop.
I have the 165 ECM, sitting in a box its not in the car yet.
I know i need the craig moates software.
somone mentioned a 10K resistor. I have no idea what that is. Will i need that with my 165 to use my cable on my laptop?
and bland english please, this ECM language stuff is beginning to overwhelm me. i dont even know what a resistor is...
I was about to buy an ALDL serial cable for diagnostic link to my laptop.
I have the 165 ECM, sitting in a box its not in the car yet.
I know i need the craig moates software.
somone mentioned a 10K resistor. I have no idea what that is. Will i need that with my 165 to use my cable on my laptop?
and bland english please, this ECM language stuff is beginning to overwhelm me. i dont even know what a resistor is...
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