anesthes

iTrader: (12)

From the past few days of searches, reading the Sunbird Dox, reading the hack, digging into the TDF (tunercat) and ecu (winbin + everything else), and finally taking lots and lots of notes.. I've come up with a list of questions I've seen asked quite a bit, and that I've considered myself.

This isn't the end all, but if it saves someone research time then I guess I gave something back. Right?

<hr>


Q: What do I need to do if I want to run $58 code on my $8D (1227730 setup)
A: Repin the following harness connectors AT THE ECM:

730 ECM -------749 ECM

A8------------->A9 (ALDL data - Not needed to move though)
C1------------->B12 (VSS output for cruise - Not needed)
C11------------>C12 (Injectors 1,3,5,7)
C12------------>C11 (Injectors 2,4,6,8)
D6-------------->C13 (Injector ground)
E3-------------->E4 (IAC coil A high)
E4-------------->E3 (IAC coil A low)
E5-------------->E6 (IAC coil B high)
E6-------------->E5 (IAC coil B low)
F1-------------->F4 (shift light) for manual trans
F2-------------->disconnect (AIR pump solenoid)
F6-------------->F4 (TCC) for automatic trans


Next replace your 1 bar map with a 2 bar sensor and connector. (GM # 16009886, or Wells Su-129)

Finally, download a $58 bin file and start making the appropriate changes. You can re-use your memcal. Note: $58 bins are 16k, so you’ll need to double it to make it work.


Q: Do I need a 1227749 ecm?
A: No, the 1227730 will run the $58 code just fine. You won't need the extra
injector drivers the 1227749 offers.

Q: What “does not” work on $58, and whats different from $8D
A: Injector constant doesn't do a thing, egr is broke on 8 cyl, charcoal canister purge doesn't
work, AIR pump diverter relays do nothing, there is no engine cyl. vol. constant.
Additionally, the fueling code is based on BPC/BPW funtions vs
ideal gas law math on $8D. $8D is a lot more "refined" on a N/A setup, but obviously after 100kpa it
is useless.

Q: What should I use to edit the $58 bins with?
A: sy-ty users recommend "Programmer 98". I'm using tunercat and Programmer. Most any editor
should work fine. Programmer is the most complete, but also ugly.

Q: If the injector constant doesn’t do anything, how do I change injector pw?
A: In the entry "BPC vs desired EGR". Stock entries are typically .09 in Tunercat.
The higher the BPC, the larger the pw will be.

The correct formula is: BPC = 730.75 * (vol of 1 cyl / inj flow in gms per sec)

The code then multiplies the BPC by 12 additional perimeters to get BPW.

Q: I'm using an MSD BTM to take out spark under boost, how does this differ?
A: $58 has a spark table from 30-190kpa. You simply fine tune your spark advance
to your engines requirements, rather than taking out 1d per psi, and so on.

Q: I'm using an FMU to increase fuel pressure under boost, how does this differ?
A: $58 uses a "BPW boost multiplier" table to add fuel under boost. It goes from
90-190kpa. There is also a VE adder table for RPM that effects fueling.

Q: Does "power enrichment" work on $58 code?
A: Yes. "PE tps threshold" is at 0x0387, and defaults to 62.50% tps. It disables PE at 0x0382, defaults 94.7kpa. There is also a low RPM, and high RPM threshold. (0x37E, 0x37F).

Q: What about AE?
A: AE is bloated in $58. I had to reduce all my AE TPS areas down
to the 300s otherwise I got a rich bog.

Q: Where is "Initial Spark Advance" in the bin?
A: In tunercat it’s labeled “Spark Reference Angle”, address 0x000E (KREFANGL)

Q: Is the Fan request switch normally open or Normally closed?
A: Normally open, according to the Sunbird-P4 docs

Q: Is Optical or Magnetic Or Both VSS available?
A: $58 can use both. There does not seem to be speedo
gauge correction however.

Q: Does $58 use synchronous or Quasi-asynchronous injector pulses?
A: Both, depending on pw. If pw becomes too short, $58 code switches
to quasi. Generally Quasi is allowed anything < 7mph.

Q: Will emissions be the same with $58 as it was with $8D
A: NO! The EGR will not function. Most importantly, the AIR diverter
relays will not work either. Perhaps someone will be kind and
import the code from $8D to enable the solenoids.

Q: Does the 749 have code to control maximum boost level via a wastegate actuator?
A: YES! the 749 code has functionality to operate a wastegate
for max boost relief.

<hr>

funstick

YES there is a PE enrchment TPS threshold. bascially you have to reach x amount of TPS % to enable the PE mode.

Secondly the PE mode is brought on by the amount of MAP KPA. there is also a table to set up the TPS vs MAP KPA to being PE mode.

thats helpful enough ?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Found it, and edited above post..

-- Joe

funstick

i know its in both programmer98 and tunercat. im not sure if im mixing codes with the 2d table but i knw there are contatns for both enables. ill have to check my not and get back to you in the morning. if i dont im sure bruce or rbob will pop in and clear ths up for sure.

Tony89GTA

iTrader: (7)

Nice work in putting everything together, should be helpful when I convert over to the $58 code this winter.

But I got one question for ya

Think you could give a brief description of what this means, thanks.

JohnL

Neat post.

Does the 749 have code to control maximum boost level via a wastegate actuator?

John

funstick

Yes there are quasi and asycn fuel modes on the $58 code. there a miniumus and maximums in the constants section.,

to answer the other question its about ijector firing times. with big injecors its really simple to just fire them less often. Becuase in a satturated injector you cant stabily fire a injector les then 2.2 msec and in a p/h arrangment you can only fire them for 1.5 msec. i you PW needs to be shorter firing the injectors less often and primarily towards idle make it easir to lean the idle out.

Quasi syncronos fire every 10-12.5 msec or at a maxiumum of 2 ref pulese. which ever is shorter.Quasi mode will add up sevral short calculated async events then fire all the injectors half as often but typically twice as long. This make acieving a proper AFR at ile with big like ( 55pph on a honda 2.0 4cyl etc ) alot simpler.


Asycn fueling fires at every ref pulse or 2 time every crankshaft revolution.in a 4cylinder or 4 time on a v8 or 3x on a v6 etc etc etc


any questions ?

LBSZ28BLOWN

730 ECM -------749 ECM

A8------------->A9 (ALDL data)
C1------------->B12 (VSS output for cruise)
C11------------>C12 (Injectors 1,3,5,7)
C12------------>C11 (Injectors 2,4,6,8)
D6-------------->C13 (Injector ground)
E3-------------->E4 (IAC coil A high)
E4-------------->E3 (IAC coil A low)
E5-------------->E6 (IAC coil B high)
E6-------------->E5 (IAC coil B low)
F1-------------->F4 (shift light) for manual trans
F2-------------->disconnect (AIR pump solenoid)
F6-------------->F4 (TCC) for automatic trans

Next replace your 1 bar map with a 2 bar sensor and connector. (GM # 16009886)

I'm just starting with the $58 code in a 730ecm.
Question:
The above, is that repining to convert to from a 730ecm to a 749ecm.
or are thoses the pins that need to be changed to run the $58
mask in a 730ecm.
Just checking, I thought someone said only one pin needed to be changed for this.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The 730 and 749 are almost the same. Close enough to be the same for this application. The repinning is because the $58 code outputs those devices (injectors, iac) on different pins than the $8D code does.

Someone could prolly change the code to work as the $8D, but noone has considered it I think. I havn't looked close enough at the two, but I think it would be fairly simple to do.'

Which leaves an interesting question.. Anyone think its a good idea to modify the code to work native in 730 without repin?

-- Joe

YenkoZ28

Why go to all that work modding the .bin when you can swap the pins around in 2 minutes? Just doesn't make much sense.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I wonder how much work it is in the bin.

As far as pin swapping goes, these swaps make no sense as far as I'm concerned. I'm looking at the schematics for the 749 and the 730.

On the 749 schematic:



C10 Injector Driver
C11 Injector Driver
C12 Not used (??)
C13 Injector Jumper (ground??)

E3 IAC A High
E4 IAC A Low
E5 IAC B High
E6 IAC B Low


On the 730 schematic:

C10 NOT USED
C11 Injectors 1,3,5,7
C12 Injectors 2,4,6,8

E3 IAC A High
E4 IAC A Low
E5 IAC B High
E6 IAC B Low

D6 Injector Ground


Now I can see maybe why the injectors get flipped around, but I DO NOT understand why your suposed to mess with the IAC. It looks like the IAC is the same. Wtf?

-- Joe

SATURN5

I talked with Bruce reguarding this, and it seems that IACs are not wired all the same.

The 749 swap is a hit or miss with the IAC, either it works out of the box, or it is buggered. The fix is simple, just swap the pins from coil A to coil B and so forth. What happens is the ECM signals to close the IAC, and it opens, and vice versa.

BW

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

That is interesting. Which way is yours?

-- Joe

LBSZ28BLOWN

What $58 .bin file should be used to run in the 730ecm.

Is there more than one .bin for the $58 mask, if so is one preferred over the others.

YenkoZ28

It really doesn't matter which one you use, since any of them will need to be modified to run the V8. BBZB is the latest update for the application though and is probably the easiest to find.

funstick

Thats insane. if you follow the schematic your IAC works just fine. the difference is in the control code. ad the Quad drivers are controller by the MCU which is instructed by the CODE. if built a bunch of scratch $58 harness using the 749 727 and 730 and never once have i had trouble with the IAC.

JohnL

There is an AYBN hac for the $58 mask. That may be a reason to start with AYBN.

John

SATURN5

Maybe you should look over a few wiring schematics... Not all IACs are the same.

Then maybe look up coils, solenoids and magnetic fields and how they operate. This is not a code issue.

You may have not had a problem with your swap, however Bort62 had to repin his IAC when he did this swap for a freind.

BW

SATURN5

Since I went from a 165 harness to 749 the IAC was repinned to match the SyTy. BW

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I looked at the sunbird schematic, and I emailed Clint Buckalew, who did the pinout conversion that Bort and most guys follow. He said:

"Trust me on this one the schematics are wrong for the IAC. I wired it up like the schematics show and the IAC didn't work, so I had to flip them around to get it to work. As for the injectors if you see an injector jumper then your looking at the turbo sunbird diagram. The sy/ty uses only one of the injector drivers and the turbo sunbird uses them both. In either case they are still batch fire method. If you have a 90-92 fbody with the 730 wire up the vss like in the turbo sunbird diagram and wire the rest like the sy/ty unless you are using p&h injectors. Clear as mud eh."

I don't have the sy-ty schematic, but I'd love to see it.

What i'll do is leave the IAC alone, and start it, and if it doesn't work, i'll flip it around.


-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Clint sent me the Syclone schematics. They ARE different than the '730, and Sunbird in regards to IAC..

funstick

I use a GM schematic. if your having IAC troubles then your using either a non standard GM IAC for the apllication or your using a chrysler IAC> but being an auto tech and changing lots and lot of GM iacs hel ive used chrysler IACS with $58 with no trouble i can tell you with a eat deal of certianty the issue is your schematic not the IAC>


BTW the code does dictate which way the coils are pulled and which way the IAC in terms of current polarity gets driven.

Open mouth insert foot. you did.

SATURN5

Pardon? Buggering the wiring will cause problems. The code only determines which one to pulse.
Reverse a IAC once.. and get back with me. BW

funstick

BOB its a stepper motor. striagth up. that means that depending on which coil is pulsed first will dictate direction. Its a code VS quad drive vs pinut issue. IF you use the correct pinout for your CODE then the quad driver will function the way the code instructs it to. The IAC is not a magic device with special propertys. If what you were saying was true then every time i chaged an IAC i would have to repin the ECM on even a basic repiar.

This if from the mouth of GM power trian enginer. if you wish to argue with the guys that design the hardware feel free. Also prtty much every IAC is the same electrically. chrysler IAC are the same as GM becuase there both made by the same supplier.

SATURN5

Right...

I think we hit the same point, but were coming at it from different sides..

BW

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The sy-ty schematic (thanks clint) says:

E6 IAC A High
E5 IAC A Low
E3 IAC B Low
E4 IAC B High

But the correct wiring for the sy-ty should be:

E4 IAC A High
E3 IAC A Low
E6 IAC B Low
E5 IAC B High

Injector's are not reversed, $58 just has them different.
On sy-ty schematic:

1,3,5 - C12
2,4,6 - C11

I don't know why GM has them in this order, or why the sy-ty schematic for IAC appears wrong but. ?

-- Joe

JP84Z430HP

I wondered about the Chrysler IAC's being the same. I thought they were, but never tried to swap one.

The code changes explain why I've seen the IAC wired differently for various applications that use the same ECM (730). I was looking at a J-body schematic and it was different than whatever other schematic I had lying here that was a 730 app.

How difficult would it be to change in the code? I may look into that for one of my projects I'm looking into where I may be running a few different masks.....

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

FYI.. tunercat emailed me a modified $58 def for working with 8cyl version. $58B they named it. If your a TC customer, email 'em.

-- Joe

LBSZ28BLOWN

FYI.. tunercat emailed me a modified $58 def for working with 8cyl version. $58B they named it. If your a TC customer, email 'em.

anesthes ,
Whats the $58B do?
I looked at it and didn't see anything that stood out any different
then the $58.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

When you change the cyl select to 8 cyls with the stock $58 TDF, everything based on RPM is calculated wrong in TC.

I.e, if you enter 10 in a field, it really is 9.8, and so on. This might not matter to some folks, but others would want the numbers to be right on.

-- Joe

Grumpy

From what I've run on the bench it seems to be synch, and asynch.
Synch meaning in relationship to a DRP, Distributor Reference pulse, and then asynch which means time based on 12.5 msec intervals.

So far I haven't heard of a solid explaination of quasi, and how it would in fact work. Other then the Sy Doc., and I wonder about it at times.

Otherwise seems like a, KEEPER.

Grumpy

They aren't wired into the system in the same way. IACs of the same series, are all the same other then the pintle.

Usually there is a difference when swapping from a C3 to P4 in the IAC pin outs.

JohnL

Does the TCC lockup work on a '730 when you use $58 code if you connect (F6--->F4 (TCC)) as per the post by LBSZ28BLOWN above?

I raise this given RBob's comment in today's "703 = 749 (almost)" thread, that there is no TCC lockup driver on the '749.

John

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

yes

MrDude_1

whats the deal with $58 and VATS? it still work?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

No..

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

[/quote]
Does the TCC lockup work on a '730 when you use $58 code if you connect (F6--->F4 (TCC)) as per the post by LBSZ28BLOWN above?

I raise this given RBob's comment in today's "703 = 749 (almost)" thread, that there is no TCC lockup driver on the '749.
[/quote]

TCC Works on F4 on $58 as outlined in the schematic.

F4 on $8D in a '730 used to be AIR converter divert solenoid, which can drive TCC just fine.

-- Joe

The_Raven

This $58 talk is interesting to me, as I am/was planning on using this for my builds, my current one running in my S-15 and the one I will be building for my Sunbird, but after reading this thread it seems that there may be a problem with that, where the EGR is concerned. Around here, they are getting real sticky about emmisions controls on vehicles. If the vehcile was OEM eqquipped with that part it needs to be there, regardless of actual tail pipe emmisions.

So the $58 mask (Sy/Ty) does NOT use an EGR? If that is the case, what about starting with a 2.0L turbo .bin/mask (I don't know what mask that is), and modifying that? I will be running turbo V6s in both vehicles, hence why I was looking at using the $58 mask. I had considered using the TGP mask ($8D I believe), but I will not be running DIS in my Sunbird.

Or is the lack of EGR just when using the $58 mask in the 730?
I will be using a 749 if that makes a difference.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The problem I guess is EGR code doesn't work "correctly" on a 8cyl. I havn't tried it, I dunno if some people on here have.

More importantly, there is no air injection. So you'll either have to rig that up, or figure something else out.

-- Joe

The_Raven

Ok, so it seems to be the change from 6cyl to 8 cyl that messes with the EGR coding?

A.I.R. injection is not an issue, I won't be running that, and if I do need to add it back to my truck it's a passive system with no connections to the ECM.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I'm using $58 now on my boosted setup. There was some problems at first, and obvious differences in VE, and AE but I got it to the point where I think its driving nicely.

I'll post a link to my current bin, and scan here later.


-- Joe

novass

iTrader: (1)

is this the table you had to make all 300's

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

It was access enrichment vs differential tps. I'm guessing thats the one.

This was for a TPI setup.

When I switched to singleplane efi, I put it all back up. haha.

I'm running $60 now, but most of the rules still apply.

-- Joe

novass

iTrader: (1)

After the conversion between 7730 to 7749, I have a question about ALDL mode with the $58. Is it necessary to use a 10k resistor between ports a and b on the aldl to enter the ALDL mode?

I had been reading Functional Features of the 1988 GM p-4 2.0 Turbo PFI System and it makes reference to enterin ALDL when a resistance of 10k is present see section 8.1.4.

For those that have done the swap, what have you found?

--Tom

RBob

iTrader: (1)

To put the ECM into ALDL mode the 10K resistor is required (across pins A & B).

To put the ECM into Diagnostic mode short the pins A & B together.

To data log no need to place the ECM into any special mode. Leave pins A & B open.

RBob.

novass

iTrader: (1)

Ok one more...

once again I am doing the swap from 7730 to 7749.

I notice that in the $58 that at position:

0x0334 magnetic speed sensor; that the value is disabled.

I know in my 7730 it was enabled, I am assuming that i need to switch the value.

Can anyone confirm?

Did the sy,ty use an optical sensor?

Also, How about the Road Speed sensor constant at 0x00f4 in the $58 it is 2000 to work with the one from the 7730 should it
be changed to 4000?

novass

iTrader: (1)

bttt

Grumpy

The Sy's used a magnetic VSS, with a DRAC.
You can use either with the 58, magnetic or optical.
Yes, you'll need to change the constant going from magnetic to optical.

novass

iTrader: (1)

Thanks once again. Grumpy

Z69

Pasted from above for clarity.
730 ECM -------749 ECM

A8------------->A9 (ALDL data - Not needed to move though)
C1------------->B12 (VSS output for cruise - Not needed)
C11------------>C12 (Injectors 1,3,5,7)
C12------------>C11 (Injectors 2,4,6,8)
D6-------------->C13 (Injector ground)
E3-------------->E4 (IAC coil A high)
E4-------------->E3 (IAC coil A low)
E5-------------->E6 (IAC coil B high)
E6-------------->E5 (IAC coil B low)
F1-------------->F4 (shift light) for manual trans
F2-------------->disconnect (AIR pump solenoid)
F6-------------->F4 (TCC) for automatic trans

I was reviewing the 7730/7749 schematics on ~Ludis.
From what I can tell when running $58 on a 7730-

A8-doesn't matter, same signal on both pins
C1- I suspect this is more CC specific. C1 & B12 come from the same chip. Might need to experiment.
C11 & 12- doesn't matter on 7730
D6- C13 is a 7749 specific pin?, INJB GND.
IAC- when the people who've done it can't agree???
F1- This is the A/C control relay in a SyTy.
F2- This is WG control in a Sy Ty So disconnect it or hook it to your WG sol.
F6- Not used on a SyTy, so move to F4 if running a TCC

So it appears only 3 pins, F1,F2,F6 need to be moved. And maybe only F2 if you're lucky. A lot easier than I thought. Am I missing something?

edit: what about E9? EGR in 7730 and EVRV? wtf in 58.
E8 is Fan in 8D and CAC pump in 58.