Doesn't GM own the code we are working with? If so then how it it legal? Guess there is a reverse engineering law that alllows it to happen? For example, I am a game emulator freak. It the best thing ever!!! But rom images for games are not legal to have. Unless you own the original rom image. Then you have things like the N64 emu that nentendo has strong armed. Ultrahle is dead now as a result. So could the same thing happen to programs like tunercat? Is there a legal reason that TGO does not archive rom images?

 

Dealing with code as old as we are, i can't imagine any legal reprecutions. besides, i would think that it is in GM's best interest to have us doing things that keeps us interested in our cars, brand loyality is a big deal for car companies. we also do 'own' and orginal copy of what we are working with. i bought the ECU, the PROM, ect. There could potentialy be laws against distrobution, but like i said, 20 year old code, i doubt it. and GM has much bigger fish to fry, than the very small DIY community.

 

its a gray area.


it would be a long long post if i tried to type it all out.

 

I guess we are messing with the calibrations f a emmissions controled vehicle. There are federal statutes against it.

But on the other hand the OBD2 laws which encompass all computer controlled vehicles (even the older OBD1 brethren) states that the information contained in them and repair of these systems must be allowed by a mechanic (not specifying who the mechanic is) with systems that are not encoded and information that is easily accessable with basic tools. Also the systems must all be the same. That doesnt sound like any OBD2 that I ever heard of, which means the manufacturers are in violation.

 

Here here!!! I was looking for some OBD II stuff the other day and found it....VERY expensive...as in COST PROHIBITIVE
At least I THINK it was OBD II

 

No need to type it all out. That explains everything. So bottom line is GM could put down the iron fist on everything. BUT not going to happen. Guess they missed the boat....

 

GM can't do anything to an idividual except perhaps turn them in to get their vehicle emmisions tested. I can buy a blender and modify if I want, same with my car. If I make a pollution mess I can be fined. If its still compliant, I am fine.

I cannot sell GM stuff for money however, GM owns it. The gray area is for people selling chips, even if they tell you its for off-highway use.

Software like TunerPro should be fine because the user makes their own ECU files. Without them its just software that handles binary data. Selling the software from money by the author should be safe too. Providing ECU files might start to get murky.

 

Are we gonna open THIS can of worms again? Remember the $58.ecu thread? If such is actually the case, then how could the alleged owner of the $58.ecu file actually OWN it as he claimed to? Seems like the actual complainant in a case such as that would be none other than General Motors.

 

makes sense.....

 

Also, the key to this is enforcement. How does GM know who is doing what to their own property? Here in MN, I OWN my car...and can alter it all I want.

Granted, if I get too out of line (ie racing exhaust on the street), then the local fuzz will get me. But there is no emissions testing in MN...the key is that legally, if I sell my car to say someone in CA, I would be legally liable to make it pass emissions (by re-installing the OEM emissions equip).

For me personally though...I can alter the code in my PROM just like I can change the intake or the cam. The key is enforcement.

Point to Ponder: With the vehicles on the road that have On-Star...GM knows who has altered what and could potentially start coming after owners who have substantially altered their vehicles.

 

Another point to ponder here...along the same lines. Was On Star designed to help people or to help corporations like GM spy on people? I agree that On Star has probably saved many lives, but for the reasons that you just stated, it seems like it is more of a piece of spyware that buyers unknowingly purchase with their new vehicles...basically buyers are PAYING FOR the installation of something that they really DON'T want.

 

Not just spyware...but a form of tracking...think about it...it has GPS and access to what the ECM sees. What is to prevent the government in say, 10 years, from enacting an organization to monitor how fast you are driving and start mailing out speeding tickets? Think I am a conspiracy nut? Here in MN, I know of at least one local police dept that uses photo laser to ticket you and then mails you the ticket without even stopping the car! I would assume that it would be up to the owner to prove they weren't driving...

This same procedure could be used to track emissions violators...say keep a database of everyone who is driving around with a SES or CEL light that is an emissions code...

Thankfully since I will not be installing On-Star in my car, this isn't a concern and I repeat my earlier statement about the code modification being my property, as the car owner. As long as I don't try and re-sell it.

 

I drive a 24-year-old Jeep with a 25-year-old engine block under the hood...and 1990-model GM electronics controlling all of it. It's a good thing they didn't have OnStar in 1990 or I'd already have troubles with the things you mentioned because my engine is older than my vehicle and very highly modified. I am wondering if the monkeys at the inspection station will even realize what I have done to it.

 

The photo laser thing has been a matter of some debate for quite a while now. I personally think it is a violation of our judicial system procedures because, like you said, it basically puts the burden of proof on the accused...guilty until proven innocent. I hate it. I could rant on and on, but I don't want to open a can of political worms. Imagine the repercussions of starting a political discussion here.

 

I agree totally...

 

The Jeep is going to the inspection station either today or tomorrow. I have to get it inspected so I can actually start driving it to and from work...I got a new job yesterday and it is gonna be great!
Anyway, I have a friend in Corpus that owns an oil change place. I am fairly certain that I can get him to slap a sticker on it...the odd thing is that I would almost bet that it runs cleaner than 50% of the newer cars out there right now because I have actually taken the time to start tuning it right. I have seen newer cars that belch smoke like crazy. My EFI AMC 360 doesn't do that.

 

Don't forget here in California, they have already issued tickets to people who have RENTED cars with the GPS tracking capabilities.

The renting company (a small shop) had both a ticket issued and fined the customer for breaking the speed limit (over 65MPH). The renting company did this after scanning the computer for dirving history (times dates) correlated that back to the customer renting the vehicle, and informed the police and fined the customer.

 

It's not gray at all.
If GM wanted to, it could keep us all tied up with legal suits forever. That being said, if it really bothered them they would have acted along time ago. Originally the EPA mandated that all the Source Code be Public Domained. So it's kind of Catch 22 in that reguard. If they act to enforce their *rights*, if they lose they might have to Public Domain the source code. But, there's been an entire generation of lawyers that have spent their careers arguing with the EPA over this.

Changing a calibration and running it on a public highway is illegal. If it's not oem, or has a CARB excemption number it doesn't belong on the street.

Personnally I'm in this for educational reasons, I find it extremely enlightning figuring this sort of stuff out. It's my hope that sharing things with other leads them to further investigate engine management, and help with cleaner air.

 

There are already little "black" boxes that record the last 30 seconds or so of various data points.. like antilock, speed, rpm, tps, etc.. For which has already been used by the police to convict people of various traffic offenses.. BW

 

Grumpy: Well said...in fact I have obviously modded my car way beyond stock specs...so tuning for me will make my combo much more efficient, thereby reducing emissions anyway....and I am only doing it on my own car.

Saturn5: Yeah...that was a few years ago...but now they can have real-time data on it...kinda makes you wonder how/if the CIA is involved with that...I have heard stories of criminal types ripping out OnStar so they can't be tracked...not sure if it is true or not.

nhromyak: Thankfully MN is still a bit behind the People's Republic out there

JeepGuy: Good luck...getting it on the road is what it is all about.

 

good thing this is on new vehicles. I have no use for the govern't spying on me. I have GPS tracking on my cell phone and i know how to block it. as with anything that has a computer behind it-it will cost you a small fortune to keep it running.

I would think GM would want us interested in their Cars and continue to promote the Fisher Body's of yesterday.

 

Do you consider the computer part of emissions equip? I don't have emission testing in my area. It looks like missouri will get rid of the testing statewide. BTW, it's legal to remove defective emissions equipment. . I wouldn't think the ecm is part of emissions... Where do you live? Does those obdII "tuners in a can" have a carb number?


If I had one of those black boxes in my car it would be found and killed.

 

The ECM is considered part of the emissions equipment.

The law that governs emissions equipment is the FEDERAL Clean Air Act, and being a Federal law, it applies to every public highway.

Whether your particular state decides to inspect, or not, doesn't make a difference as far as what's actually legal or illegal.

"Defective" equipment must be replaced or repaired, unless the car is old enough to be exempt. Either that, or it's illegal to operate it on a public road.

Some states, like CA, have standards that often are more stringent than Federal requirements. The only good that comes out of that, is that if a product does have a CARB EO#, it's acceptable proof that it meets Federal standards too.

I haven't seen any aftermarket tuners with an EO number -- look close, and you'll probably find an "off road only" disclaimer. Given what hoops they'd have to jump through to prove EPA certification, I don't expect to see any, either. The stuff the OEMs have to go through to obtain certification, is tons more involved than the piddly little smog tests we individual citizens sometimes have to deal with. And a tuner would have to obtain certification for every vehicle/engine/transmission/calibration combo he wanted to sell his product for.

 

Let's say you sell somebody an eprom with the speed limiter removed and they're underage. Then they test it out and kill themselves and/or others. Don't the parents have the right to take you to court and leave you broke and in jail? Then GM could hear about this, and then they'll crack down on all code hackers making you wish you were dead after the whole DIY community kickers your ****. Just a thought but a very serious one.
Moral of the story... know what "DIY" stands for and "SIY" (sell it yourself).
I think it is illegal to edit your own vehicles if it's driven on public roads. Unless you have been exempt from emissions testing than it's illegal, just have to wonder if anybody really cares. Especially if the car runs "dirtier" with the stock chip than it does your custom tune

 

Anyone has the right to sue anyone. It's so far out of hand now, that no longer does common sense apply to anything having to do with lawyers being able to collect a fee.
The legal system is so broke now, it's amazing it works at all.

 

Agreed on all points. I have to watch what I write on students' papers for fear that one of them could take me to court for offending them and denigrating their "hard work" even if it IS a POS.

 

Here's your LEO opinion of the day:

Tom is right here. Your tampering with emissions control, its illegal for anything driven on a public road. There is your "criminal" part of this question.

Defective equipment must be replaced. You can't remove it because its defective, and not replace it with the same, or better item.

Sorry, federal law says otherwise.

Not even close. The binary form of the program is copyrighted. There is no clause that allows modifications for personal use. And as stated above, its illegal anyway. There is the civil part.

People seem to have a problem with limiting their ability to "Get away with something". If the state was writing citations for infractions not actually commited, I would side with you. But frankly, if you break the law - pay the fine!

Privacy "rights" do not extend to allow you to break the law. Sorry

-- Joe

 

Thank you for your input, counsel. You are correct in that privacy "rights" don't allow one to break the law, but I do believe that there is a part of the Consititution that says that "these rights...shall not be abridged...". If a government agency or a PRIVATE CORPORATION is able to put tracking devices in our vehicles WITHOUT OUR KNOWLEDGE, doesn't that constitute something akin to what the CIA was doing in the 50's and 60's? If what you are saying is true, then why don't we all go down to the local computer house and buy a webcam. We could all hook them up to our computers so that Big Brother can see our every move 24/7/365. Let's go ahead and let Saddam out of jail so he can help set up our new form of government "of the people, by the people and for the people." Maybe we can hire some of his former military advisors to come and get rid of our problems for us. Too bad we killed his sons...they'd be perfect for this job.
Our society today is a sorry representation of what our forefathers had in mind when the wrote those documents in the 18th century...you know the ones I am talking about...the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States on America. Maybe Nikita Khruschev got it right. "We can't expect the American people to jump right into Communism. But we can assist their elected leaders in feeding them small doses of Socialism until one day the awake to find they have Communism."
Sounds like the road we are on right now.

 

[QUOTEPrivacy "rights" do not extend to allow you to break the law. Sorry ] [/QUOTE] Do you drive that nice S/C setup on the street? If so then you are breaking the law......


How many people that burn prom chips are using the car for off road? Let's get real. There is no "man" that's reading this. If there is then he can't do anything. So why throw the off road disclaimer out there? Guess it's just important to cover your *** ,just in case?

In my state there is emission testing in selected areas. My 406 has passed that test before with lower emissions than my stock v6. In missouri the car is not subjected to a visual inspection unless it fails. Then they open the hood and find any missing/defective equipment. When you go back, they make you sign something that states the repair was made, no visual re-inspection....unless it fails again. Bottom line in missouri, the car is compliant if it passes the emission test. You can go up there with a 406sbc and no emissions equipment and if you pass the car is certified,mine was . Might not be up to federal standards. But the states can choose to ignore federal law.....or should I say turn the other way. Look at the medical ******** law that cali passed. Feds do bust people for it but generally the state has legalized it(bad analogy, I know).

 

jeepguy, I'll put it simple...

We are raised to believe that we are 100% free. That's not the case. Just like santa clause....led to believe a lie

 

Hey anesthes:

I think you are missing the point about what I am saying...I really don't care what Federal law is...because no one is enforcing it where I exist (within the strict confines of the emissions thing)

Therefore...it doesn't matter to me

I do understand that you are arguing about the strict letter of the law...but a law is really only valid if it is obeyed and/or enforced. Especially EPA regulations

 

Mark McPhail (one of the main guys for GMPP) once described GM's attitude towards aftermarket calibrations as a "see no evil, hear no evil" attitude. They know it happens, but it's easier for them just to pretend they don't. There's simply no profit to be had for GM by getting involved.

What's more frightening is for some politician looking for something to show that they're "doing something" for the environment, and picking us as a target. Unlike GM, the government isn't limited on how much they spend paying lawyers (with your tax dollars), to go after someone. In that instance, it'd only be the lawyers who'd come out ahead.

 

very true. the gov is always cracking down. The man likes to stick it to everybody.....

I would like to retract my last statement.....this stuff is for off road use

 

I'll agree...off-road use only...
There's MY disclaimer line.

 

Yup, strictly off-road here too.

(notice how the tires hold the car off the road?)

 

psst. i hope you dont have a cell phone... because they are now required to have a GPS reciever in them... so when you call 911 they can tell where you are...

what you need to do is ditch all your electronics, put alum foil on your head and paint it to match the ground... that way, the satilites cant see you.




or you can just deal with the harsh reality that is today and work it to your best advantage.


oh, and they have your knowledge...... theres just nothing you can do about it...... or you COULD just disconnect it.

 

I don't think this is accurate. A copyright covers the expression of something. If I write my name in a fancy way on a piece of paper and put a copyright symbol on it, its copyrighted. There is no legal registration required, just put the symbol on it. It's darn near unenforceable so that is why people would register it. This is also different from a Trademark which must be registered.

A copyright is not a patent. If I take your copyrighted material and pass it off as my own I get in trouble. If I change it and call that my own I am okay. Its the presentation that figures more prominently here.

A patent infringement involves my taking your lawfully registered process or technique, using it myself to make money. If however I use your patented process to make things for myself I am fine.

This is all separate from legal tactics involving large corporations who can wear you down on what are ultimately groundless lawsuits simply because they have the resources and you don't.

 

on a program you have to redo it to a point inorder for it to not be copyright infringment.

theres 100s of cases on the subject if you're intrested... im intrested mostly because i am a computer programmer, and i have alot of intellectual property out there.. but at the same time, i believe in open source and sharing data... i dont have the same cut and dry, black and white views alot of people have.

and im not even going to attempt to type them all.. lol.

 

Cell phone...Nokia TracFone from Circle K. I hope it doesn't have a GPS in it
Credit cards...none here
I use satellite imagery frequently in my work. I know that they can read your watch from space if they want to.
The part about the GPS in cell phones is interesting and alarming at the same time. The 911 thing is good, but the ability to track a given individual solely on the basis of a cell phone signal is not so good.
Ever read George Orwell's 1984? How about "Animal Farm"? Talk about scary. The reality of it is that we are seeing some of the things from those two books actually taking place in today's society.
I think I'll stick with what I have

 

give me the model number and i can try to see if it has one or not (im bored at work, why not?)

but yea, i read orwells stuff along with others...
being that im usually up to date with tech stuff, i see it coming years before it does... i cant stop it myself, but i see it coming.

 

A copyright has to be registered with the US copyright office.

Check the current SCO vs IBM lawsuit in relation to Linux. And this was only about a few lines of code being used, not the entire project.

-- Joe

 

I like that idea. I'm also moving to New Hampshire when I graduate so I can say "live free or die."
I say **** the world and do what you feel. If you get caught, oh well, life sucks.
As I stand in a sinking ship on fire, I say to my enemy, "I have not yet begun to fight!"
That's how I feel, and I'm not sorry for being so politically incorrect. If you hurt somebody or directly do something that harms another persons way of life then you are responsible. If you don't hurt anybody then you should be allowed to do anything because unlike the federal government, I trust in an American's intensions.

 

I agree. The law is not broke unless somebody is hurt or some ******* complains.

 

That leads toward anarchy.
Society needs laws, it's what raised us above savagery.

There is a fine line from doing what feels good to what makes society work. As you'll see in the next few decades, there are some things that are broke, and the attitude of anything goes, has lots of faults.

A search on Hawaiian War Games, will bring things more into focus. But, it's an old topic, so might be difficult to find, any accurate info on.

 

You can say that anywhere, the trick is following up on what you say with what you do.
While youth might speak that way, you'll probably revise how you think in time.

While you might like the idea of being a bit of a rebel, society demands responsibility. If you want to look at what total freedom brings look at some of the remote areas of the 3rd world countries. Not to mention the burdens and cost of a democracy.

But, this is getting way off topic.

 

I was not implying that. Laws are great. Some people like/need to have things like that. My angle is that if it's not hurting anyone/anything then it ok. I posted about my state and how they enforce emissions laws. My 406 was within the law. Maybe just state law... but if my big motor puts out less emissions than a v6/passes testing then it not breaking the law.

I love the United States. It's just...sometimes the goverment is more hard on it own kind....


I think this is going to be locked soon. Oh well, I dont want to turn on CNN and see ,"prom burning against the law". The gov has advisers looking at all forms of piracy on the net. This hobby could become a target,IMO. This thread needs to go.

 

hmmmmmmm

U want to fix almost everything wrong with this country?

heres my plan,

rule #1

no career politicians, if you are worth millions fo dollars and dont have to work for a living like the rest of us, u r no longer able to run or hold a public office :-)

rule #2

See rule #1 and enforce it brutally and horribly in direct and outlandish violation of the Geneva Accords :-)

Seems easy enough to me.

rule #3

They try to take away any of my rights, and I dont care whether its religion, guns, cars, jobs, what color my hair is, diminish my quality of life, anything, see rule #2

Call it dumb but in the yr 2012 I would really like to run for president the sam walton way, cross the country door to door in my old beat up pickup truck :-) Somehow i think people would really like the idea of someon who actually has to get up a 6am like them and go work/drive 10+ hrs a day too

vote for me in 12!

PS It is nice to have a rant thread here occasionally if confined to this space

 

Whoever started it needs to delete the root post. That will delete the entire thread.

 

Sorry for my venting. I just had an aweful past few days where 6 months of work had been smashed by a driveshaft coming loose on an engine dyno .

 

Anything survive?

-- Joe