Spring is coming, even here in Wisconsin, and I would like to start datalogging my mostly stock L03 firebird before I start doing the mods I've accumulated over the winter (full 3 in. exhaust + Open air element), to get some pre mod data. I have looked into the Win AlDL and aldl cable setup, which looks like it would be fine for simple datalogging, and I have also checked out the Moates Ostrich chip-burning setup which looks like it would be great for TPI cars, but requires a lot of modification to work with our TBI cars. To get to the point, before I purchase anything, I would like to get some input as to what you TBI guys who are currently tuning, are using. I know the guy at TBIchips.com is able to create chips that just plug right in to our TBI ecms, (unlike the Moates Ostrich setup) and he is able to create the chips with data from the WinALDL program. What kind of chip burning setup would I get to be able to do that? I work as a Network admin so I'm no stranger to computers, but after doing a few searches, I seem to come up more of the same, mostly TPI tuning info, so any help would be great.

 

IMHO, it is not worth messing with the stock style 2732A UV erase chips. They take way TOO long to erase and program. With the AT29C256 I can have a chip sitting in my hand, put it in the burner, erase it, blank check, burn, verify, and have it back in my hand, in UNDER 1 minute.

 

I've burnt about 350 chips for my TBI using the 2732A chip. It takes about 5 minutes to erase/burn each new chip. I used to rotate 3 chips at a time.

After 350 different chips, I noticed the pins soldered to the board were worn considerably. The plastic sockets that hold the chip in place were also worn. At one point the stock socket was worn so bad that I would continually get an EPROM fault.

This year I have seen the light (took me long enough ). I have since replace the stock socket with the 24 pin to 28pin adapter and a low profile ZIF so I can run a AT29C256 chip.

As far as datalogging goes, a Wide Band O2 datalogger is likely the best but costs $ and Winaldl is free but has limitations (mostly logging rates). This site is filled with threads discussing pros and cons of both.

Just my

 

The new way to go is to use Embedded Lockers. It was developed by two guys on the boards RBob and JPrevost. You can read up about it on the DIY Prom board.

It does require a wide band O2 sensor. But that is the only way to go. I have done some datalogging and chip burning without a wideband and you just can't get enough good data without it. The wideband will give you a much better tune.

 

I've been using the Xtronics PP2 for 3 years, UV erasing and burning 2732A chips. It's not that bad. In fact I prefer it to what I have to do on my Camaro. If you can, wait for EBL though...

 

After reading what you guys say and looking at the EBL posts it looks like I'll start with the Moates USB Cable set up and Tunerpro RT, eventually get an Ostrich, Wide Band O2, and the EBL. What kinds of Wide Band o2 sensors are out there? Have there been better results with certain ones? Also I really appreciate the ideas.
Thanks,

Rob

 

It really isn't that big of a deal to put a real socket in your ECM, then all you need is Moates' 24 to 28 pin adapter and your up and running on flash chips that take 2 seconds to erase and burn, and the ostrich will plug right in. Comparing TBIchips to doing it your self is like sending your carb off to be tuned once, or buying a jet kit and a good book (thirdgen.org). Don't wast your time and money on the mail order chip.

I've had good luck with a Zietronix WB, I have the more expensive unit that will data log other sensors as well. This is nice since it will get you around the slow data rate of the stock ECM. Another option is getting the cheaper WB from Zietronix (can't remember the name) and getting the EBL board. It will accept the WB input and spit it out the logger that comes with it. You don't have to have a WB to tune, but it will help alot.

 

The LC-1 from Innovate is only $200 for the sensor and amplifier with two outputs.
Lots of guys are running them now.
Craig's got them on his site.

 

BTW, with the EBL you really don't even have to use the Wideband. I didn't even hook mine up until I had all the tables tuned the way the engine liked them. Hooked the Wideband up and the engine didn't budge from 12.5:1 under WOT.

 

I take it from reading the EBL posts that it isn't available for purchase yet, any ideas (general range) on what that might cost?

 

Ask RBob about the price, I'm really looking forward to the EBL release, I've only been at this a year and only know enough about computers to know I don't know JACK about them. The USB AutoProm and TunerPro have treated me well. The sooner you start the better. I don't understand if a ZIF will be needed with the EBL or not but if you start before EBl, do the adapter and a ZIF. Good Luck and Good Head scratchin.

 

please enlighten me.

I HAVE A STANDARD 28 PIN SOCKET running a 2732 which is a 24 pin devise. the 4 additional pins are dead on socket. i used to use a moates ZIF adapter but found the match was not that good. it appears the round pins in zif did not mate with the 28 pin socket so i would go limp occasionally. not good in traffic.
so i abandoned the adapter. i think others had issues? now the AT29C256 chip is a 28 pin devise correct? if so is it possible to solder into my ECU my existing 28 pin socket properly pinned for flash chip or better yet solder in a 28 pin ZIF again properly configuered? i then could get up to date. please feel free to correct me. not strong on hardware stuff. thank you. i will follow up with other Q's. spring is coming.

7747.

 

Ok... I have to ask (mostly out of curiousity)... Is the standard 28pin socket you are using an OEM style socket? I believe the 7747 originally came with a 24 pin socket using the 2732 chip (same as the 8746).

What adapter were you using?

I just finished my conversion to the AT29C256. I ended up de-soldering the OEM 24pin socket and replaced it with a 24pin dip socket with moates G2 adapter and low profile zif stacked on top. I'm looking forward to trying it out. Still a little snowy yet for too much fiddling.

 

I would recommend making sure your G2 Adaptor does not have any flux between the pins. I am not here to slander or point fingers or cause any grief but rather save some time. I also was using a G2 and I didn't inspect it closely and ran into a flux problem that I assumed I didn't have to check. Nice adaptor just trying to help anyone avoid my said problem. Check it closely and clean if need be. Thanks. Hope it all works well for you.

 

the 7747 was obtained in its stock form from donor truck. the socket in it was removed and in its place was installed a "standard" 28 pin DIP(i believe it is referred to) was soldered in its place. my buddy could not locate a 24 so he used a 28 and left 4 dead.

my understanding is that needed to be done to allow chip removal? that was 06/2003.

now the adapter was obtained from Moates. i believe it is a 24 pin ZIF. it is placed piggyback into the 28 pin allowing easy removal of chips(zif). issue as i said was loose connection. not sure if issue is zif side or other connection. seemed more evident when on bumpy road. ECU lying on floor in standard tuning position.

now i am contemplating removal of the 28 pin dip socket and replacing with a 28 pin ZIF and resoldering. concerned i may be wearing out socket. then i would also change to AT29C256. which apparenly is a 24 pin device.

i am not confident around hardware.

 

I have been going through this set of hardware issues for some time now. Today will be my first day of real error free logging and beginnig my tune on my 7747 which I also removed the 2732 and moved up to 29c256. The 29c256 is a 28 pin device and can hold up to 8 / 4k bin files and switchable if your hardware supports it. There are much more knowledgable people here at TGO that I am sure will help you out with Q's. They have helped me alot. I am using a 30mil machine socket that I purchased from xtronics along with a couple of 29c256 chips. The G2 will probably work just fine for you but my Trial time for it was under a string a adverse conditions and shorts and so forth. YUKE! By the way to chech your ECM for loose solder connections just hold it in your hand while running and tap on it with all four fingertips firmly. That is straight from alldata. It seems several folks here use ZIF sockets with success and I think it is a great idea too. But for the moment I will stick with my machine socket because I have spent considerable time getting all of this to work. Have a great day!

 

what is a machine socket and what did it cost? a assume you mean machined? if so what is it made of? mine obviously is plastic!

i will locate xtronics site.

 

Here you go Ronny http://xtronics.com/memory/romutator.htm I need to double check my terminology on this real fast. I am not using the socket you get with a 29c256. I will post you a pic shortly ok. I don't want to quote any wrong info here.

 

We advise getting some extra of these with your purchase!! 300mil solder tail machine socket - to replace broken pins ($20 min order applies - get some 29C256 to fill out your order)

that is the SOC DIP 28 M. it is used to protect the fragile ends on the romulator pigtail. i suppect it could be soldered in as well? seems it is a standard dip socket?

many who used the Rom took it off as the fat round pegs did not make good contact with the standard socket in ECU. without it in place the pins on the ROM are subject to damage as is any eprom but then the entire ribbon assembly needs replace.

 

If you plan to switch to the AT29C256 you will have to use some sort of adapter. The AT29C256's pinout is close to the 2732 but not exact. At least two pins need to be relocated for proper operation. Search previous threads for the pino

 

If you plan to switch to the AT29C256 you will have to use some sort of adapter. The AT29C256's pinout is close to the 2732 but not exact. At least two pins need to be relocated for proper operation. Search previous threads for the pinouts in previous threads and all will be well.

Anyways, if you get the 28pin ZIF, you can use the same ZIF socket should you decide to go the AT29C256 route.

One thing you might want to check before getting the 28pin ZIF is the state of the 4 dead pins on your 28pin socket. Where the round pins removed when installed in place of the 24 pin socket or where 4 more new holes made in the ECM board? My thought is that with the pins removed, or altered, a 28 pin device may not seat its self fully.

As for replacing the dip socket, If it is still working (no eprom fault codes) I wouldn't replace it. However if you enjoy the challenge, go for it. I was able to desolder my OE socket and replace it with a 24 pin socket and I am terrible at soldering. Before tackling my ECM I practiced on an old tv remote for kicks.

Desolder + Resolder + Still works = happiness

Feel free to stop me from rambling on if you have heard all this before.

Later.

 

thanks bones. my thought was that i would ship ECU to moates and have him install the 28 pin ZIF re-confiquered for the AT29C256. i supect the easy route was taken and the 4 pins removed on my current DIP. not sure.

now if i maintain the current socket i need to use an "adapter" sold by Moates if i recall? that adapter is reconfiguered to use the above chip. trying to avoid the loose connection issues again. that was a dangerous nightmare.

 

Interesting...after thinking about it some, If you assemble the G2 adapter with a 28pin ZIF socket in place of the 28pin dip socket and solder the whole assembly directly to your ECM board, the whole set up may be short enough to fit under the stock cover.

What ever you decide, good luck with your chip convert... spring is coming...