gbayfisher

That was it.

Thanks

Raynmaker

I am so impressed with the EBL. I have never had my little MGB idle so well. Now to tune it.

Few questions: I still have the smog pump that injects air into the head exaugst side. Will this make the computer run the engine lean? Should I remove it?

I have had to create a spark table since this is a four cyl and all the bins are not. I do not have a knock sensor because of the non hydralic lifters, read it would give false knocks. So I cannot adjust the table via knock count. Anyone have ideas of how to adjust the table without knock?

Thanks

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Given the fact that i have one that is only used in this car for the EBL, is there any way to set this up the way you do on the TT-1?

Cflick

Most of us have been favorably impressed.

I wouldn't, yet, but I'd run it open loop until I saw what was coming back from the O2 sensor.
Does the car have one now ?
If it does, then the air pump has already been taken into account somehow.
If it doesn't, then the air pump is likely just for the CAT, so the air injection can be moved down stream of the O2 sensor.

First, I'd create a spark table as close to factory curves as you can.

Personally, I'd add a knock sensor and see what it does.
Might be possible to deafen it to valve train enough to still respond to genuine detonation, even if more severe detonation than we'd like.
The only other ways I know, are less reliable.
Your ears are good, but after the fact, and not so sensitive as we'd like.
Plug cuts are not as reliable, and more importantly after the fact, after damage is already occuring.

In-cylinder ion traces are really, really good, 100% reliable, and instantaneous, but do require specialized gear and understanding to even begin.


Typically, the knock sensor is tuned to the cylinder bore diameter, so get one for any engine with the same or very close bore.
It's really just a microphone combined with a filter module. Between the two, they are optimized to the acoustic ring of the sound of detonation reverberating across the bore, and through the block, so normally solid contact with the block or cylinder head for maximum sensitivity.
Normally, the trace for actual detonation is many times louder than the other typical noises, and the filter modules I've tested "auto adjust" to a point, so that they respond to detonation while ignoring other noises. *IF* the other noises are too loud with respect to actual detonation, then the sensor will miss, and not respond at all.
If other noises are just flat out too loud in general, which is more the case with a noisy valve train, it tend to overload the filter, so it can't adjust. In this case, deafening the sensor can help.
Wrap teflon tape around the threads, install a short PVC extension and screw the sensor into that, these kinds of tricks. What works for you will likely be found through trial and error experimentation. I had mine on an L bracket under a manifold bolt for a while, but it was a little too deaf. Not much, but a little.
Generally, you can take a 4 oz. tack hammer and rap the block while the engine is running, or through a socket extension, anything to ring the block, and see a sensor response. ( retarded timing while you steadily and rapidly rap the block )
So, you can do some rudimentary testing of a knock sensor without actually running the engine into harmful detonation.

Good luck !

Additional
While setting up mine, which eventually ended up in the bell housing, I'd stack a couple three eighths extensions onto a head bolt furthest from the sensor, and rap that with the engine idling.
When rapid bouncing of the tack hammer on the extension would stall the engine due to too much spark retard, I figured it's working good enough.
Turned out it didn't matter which head bolt I chose, they all responded about the same in the final analysis, which is what you want.

Raynmaker

Thanks.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The USB/Serial converter chip needs to be programmable so that an specific ID can be implanted in it. This is what is done on the TT-1 controllers.

Would also need to change the WUD to auto-detect the USB/Serial adapter. Along with also allowing the user to manually select the com port.

I don't really see the need for all of this as once the proper com port is selected in the WUD, that port is selected each time the WUD is started.

RBob.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Will need to either block off the air into the exhaust, or as Cflick mentioned, redirect it well past the O2 sensor.

Disable knock retard by setting the enable CTS high:

KNK - Min CTS to Enable

That will prevent run away knock counts from retarding the timing. If and when you put an ESC system in place just be sure to lower that value.

You shouldn't depend upon knock occurring to adjust the SA table. There can be areas where too much SA won't cause detonation.

The gulp valve may or may not need to be removed or plugged. Try it first to see if all is OK. In EFI systems the IAC valve does mostly the same thing via the throttle follower (TF) logic.

Thinking about how it works, it may cause the ECM to increase the injector PW. As the manifold pressure will increase for a short period of time. Which will negate the purpose of the valve.

Can do the "gulp valve test" while data logging and see if this occurs.

RBob.

Raynmaker

Since the smog pump feeds the gulp, I will just remove it all and give it a go.

I did have one issue, when I gave it a quick blip of the throttle it backfired thru the tb. I think this was a mix of ae, timing and the gulp valve. I still have my eye brows so no harm. lol My buddy's jeep that we put a tbi on does the same, but I assumed it is the timing because he still has the mach advance and icm (he didn't like it when I locked it).

Thanks everyone for the help. I may yet be able to smoke the tires on this thing for the first time in its life!

ownor

iTrader: (5)

I see.
As for the need for all of this, for me the COM port changes every time i plug into the laptop / every other logging as i never keep the laptop in the car.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Must be either an ancient USB/Serial adapter or you are using an O/S that is older then XP. Serialized USB/Serial adapter cables will always be assigned the same com port number.

Non-serialized USB/Serial adapter cables typically get assigned a com port based on which USB port they are plugged into. So the com port can switch between two different ones on a laptop with two USB ports.

RBob.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Ok, well the adapter is from around 2007 i think, and i'm using XP SP3. i have never paid attention as to which USB port i plug it into though..

Raynmaker

So I finally got to take the little B for a drive. Each VE learn it runs better. I have yet to nail down the spark curves and it doesn't have much power taking off.

My understanding of old school dist is that the vac advance is on until the throttle is opened then it drops until the mech advance picks up. So I set the table up for this. But as you can see in the log it only drops to 14deg at the lowest point (idle is 20). It doesn't backfire but it almost bogs down until it hits 2500rpm. I don't expect it to be a rocket but would like to smoke a miata or two. lol

I attached the bin I am using if anyone wants to take a look and see the mess i've made.

Any and all advice is most greatly appreciated.

Raynmaker

Ownor,

Years ago we had issues with serial to usb adapters. I have yet to have an issue with the one I got from RBob with the FIDI? chip. Worth the extra buck or two.

If you want to use the old one, every time you plug it in you will have to verify the com that it gets assigned. It will be different even if plugged into same port. I have even seen them change ports when changing or closing programs. They were like some weird voodoo. lol

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Raynmaker, that's exactly what i'm experiencing, although i _think_ my adapter has the FTDI chip. thanks for the input tho

Doober

Is 00006 a bin? The SA table looks very weird.

If you don't have any audible spark knock that's a good thing. Do you know what your base timing is? The bin lists base timing at 11.25 degrees, what is yours set at? For all the CTS-related SA modifiers (adding/removing timing based on coolant temp) I zeroed any timing added/removed above about 75ºF, only adding some timing where it was cold. That - coupled with the base timing in the bin and mechanical base timing coinciding - allowed me to keep a more consistent handle on the timing while I was testing.

I had to lower my timing in a few areas from stock Vortec tables because it turns out I need to run premium thanks to high cylinder pressures (mild cam, higher cylinder pressure, more knock) and once I have some extra $ to go out and do some driving around I'll be able to redo the SA table to take full advantage of the higher octane.

Raynmaker

The 00006 was a data log but i guess i didn't save it correct.

Doober

Ok, I was able to open it with Excel and reattached it (edit: it's too big to attach).

The timing I was talking about was from opening the datalog in TunerPro.

Raynmaker

I went back to an old table. When I romp it it pops then takes off. So I think the advance dips too low. I think Im confusing myself.

Have a new problem tonight. The MAP is jumping up and down 5 points. The O2 sensor voltage drops off a cliff then comes back, and the idle fluctuates 50rpm. My BLM goes anywhere from 108 to 137 so I assume my VE is wacked but the learn only adjusts the low map areas.

I think all this points to a vac leak since it had a rock solid idle at one point.

See what you think. Thanks

Raynmaker

Found an async table that rbob told me to set that I missed. Maybe that will fix a few things.

Doober

I'd say it's possible...

Does it pop through the throttle body when you stomp it? If so you may have too much initial. I set the IdlSa (option 2, bit 1) and set mine to I think about 17 or so. You could do that and go from there, so long as your mechanical/EBL base timing line up. My current initial timing is only at about 16º because a minor bind keeps the throttle blades from completely closing properly, and I haven't torn it apart to see what the deal is (took it apart originally to clean it, not sure if that's the cause or not). Otherwise I would probably have base timing around 18-20º, the engine is extremely responsive given that idle speeds can be kept in check.

More timing set in the EBL than actual will skew everything down by the difference between the two (i.e. if EBL is set to 5º initial but distributor is actually at 0º, the entire timing table will be shifted down 5º, and opposite direction if the other is true). I would start with whatever the recommended base timing is for the engine and go from there. I

Doober

I noticed FAST makes a "dual-sync" distributor, and this CAD drawing shows it has crank and cam outputs... any thoughts?

http://www.fuelairspark.com/Instruct...butor-fast.pdf

Raynmaker

Got the car to run decent. No break neck speed off the line but at least I don't have people honking at me to move.

Current issues: surging idle, map, SA all bounce up and down at idle. I made sure base timing is right, valves were adjusted properly and plugs are good. No ideas of what to look for.

At a constant, or as close as my foot can hold it, speed car acts like it is hiccuping. Not bad but noticable. Like a random miss. I assume realted to other issue.

N/v ratios. I used Rbob;s cals and with a rear of 3.909, 1-3.44, 2-2.167, 3-1.382 and 4-1.0 No fifth I get 1st high 313 1lo 192 2lo 121 3lo 77 4lo 55. Problem is it jumps from 0 to 5. I've tried 0, 5, 30 in 5lo and only change the time it take to jump to 5 gear? Tire dia (with tape measure) 23.5". No clue what I missed.

So far the bin is comparable to what the carb was with the added benefit of starting everytime. Not sure what to do next beside keep doing learns. The learns seem to be getting very close but the tables look like an etch-a-scetch!

Words of advice, support, or a good psyciatrist would be appreciated.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Sounds like a mechanical issue. Plugs, wires, valve adjustment, good ICM and distributor, fuel pressure/delivery. No real difference from the carb except for crank to start...

The N/V ratio thing is a separate issue.

RBob.

Cflick

You'll need to disable that.
The O2 sensor reads the amount of O2 in the exhaust.
Too much, you're running lean. Too little, you're running rich. Air contains O2. A lot by comparison, so you don't want any leaks or additional air between the exhaust valve seat and the O2 sensor.
If you need the air injection for a CAT, I'd be plumbing it to put the air just ahead of the cat, but likely you don't *need* it at all.

Hmmm.....
Probably, I'd disable it. TBI has it's own, and under control of the ECM.
If that's too much trouble, then just understand that the EBL will respond to the change in manifold pressure, and that'll be something you'll be tweeking later on anyway.


Well, none really existed for my mill either. I had to take the factory spec, which was strictly mechanical/vacuum spec for the dist, and extrapolate from that.
The manufacturer put quite a bit of time and money into developing the spark curves for the engine when they made it, so duplicating that as closely as possible will be a good place to start. It's not difficult to extrapolate, but you will need the curves spec for that dist in that motor as produced originally, or as close to that as you can possibly get, from whatever source.
Failing that, search this forum for anything and everything by Grumpy and Rbob with respect to timing, ( especially everything by Grumpy ) and be prepared to wade through a lot of stuff. There is no "easy" way without factory spec.

Well, the reason for in the block, is maximum sensitivity, so better response to detonation. Anything else will deafen it to some extent.
They are tuned to respond to the block ringing, based on bore diameter, not valve clatter. The valve clatter will be sensed as noise. It won't cause it to not hear knock at all, but like trying to carry a conversation in a crowded bar with the band playing......
For me, I wouldn't assume valve train noise would cause a problem until I had data to prove it. You might be surprised.
If you can do my tap hammer test, and *you* can distinctly hear the knock sound separate from valve clatter, chances are the sensor will too. If *you* can't hear it distinctly, chances are the sensor won't either.

Raynmaker

Plugs. new
wires. new
valves. correct
icm. ? I thought they worked or they didn't
fuel pump. new
pressure. 15lbs stock regulator
Distributor- This could be an issue. How would worn bushings affect timing? It has way too much slop and is the reason I replaced it. I didn't want to mod my $230 distributor until I knew everything else worked.

Cflick

Does the word "random" suggest anything ?
The worse it's worn, the worse the timing control.

Raynmaker

Yeah, I guess I figured out why I had it in the shed and not on the car. But now that I know my mad mods work I will mod my new distributor.


Now about the N/V Ration...... What do I put in cell 5lo if I have no fifth gear?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I don't think that it will matter. The code goes up through the gears until it gets a hit. But put a 0 in as that should disable it from choosing 5th.

RBob.

Raynmaker

I will try that again. How does the table work? What part of the equation is it? Maybe if I understood what it is looking at I can figure it out.

Thanks

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

Hello everyone , this is Nate speaking .. I am new to third gen.org and I just recently got my EBL Flash last week! I must say I am extremely happy with the product and I am extremely excited to start learning how to tune ... So anyway I was just wondering if anyone could tell me some things I could do to my tune just to get a Lil jump start forward my vehicle and mods are as follows

Car: 1991 base Firebird
PT: LO3 305 TBI W/T5 Trans and 4.10:1 rear gears
Mods: egr/air pumps removed , 1"aluminum HVH TB spacer by CFM Tech ( the one that let's both banks pull from both injector bores) , injector spacer, adj.fpr (@16psi), summit shorty headers 1.5" primaries 2.5" collector -->2.5" y-pipe-->full 3" system w/ no cat --> flowmaster 40 series , 1.6 full roller rockers , unrestrictive air intake w/iat

Idk if this is a reasonable question or not like I said I just got the ebl and have never tuned anything fuel injected in my life .. I'm in the process of reading this entire thread of 42 pages and taking notes and I am on page 13 lol I'm still reading over the supplied ebl HTML's and the website pages as well .. Any comments , suggestions, etc. would be greatly appreciated .. Nate

Doober

Ask questions! Everybody's been pretty good at helping here from what I've seen, and Bob is great at answering questions too.

Also, if you haven't, get a wideband O2, the TT-1 was quite easy to install in my truck, though I had to get creative with routing the big plug between the controller and the sensor. It helps with VE learns anywhere besides steady rpm cruising.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The N/V ratio is just the RPM divided by the MPH.The lower the gear, the higher the ratio. Code calc's the ratio and starts at gear 0, if the ratio is lower then the value in the table it moves to the next gear.

Someplace here in DIY_PROM I went through the calculates to produce the N/V ratios. Includes tire diameter, rear ratio, and transmission ratios.

Much easier to just use a data log. From a stop go up through the gears, take it easy and hold each gear for a moment. Then go through the data log and calculate the N/V ratio for each gear. Lower it by 10% and plug it into the table (as the Lo values).

1st Hi is halfway between 1st Lo and the value 255.

RBob.

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

Idk what I did but somewhere somehow I changed a parameter that is keeping me from going into closed loop ???!?!?!? Help if its not a parameter the only other thing I can think of is I unhooked the temp switch for the cooling fan and ran it to the brown wire on the air pump solenoids to have my fan under ebl control ?

Dominic Sorresso

Did you do anything with the O/L Bias? Is it not going into C/L or is
LEARN always OFF"

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

Ok we'll I just went for a short drive and it was only going into closed loop & learn after I had my foot on the pedal .. Got home n sat in driveway and it exited closed loop . Put my foot on gas to around 2000 rpm steady and it went back into closed loop .. This is all around 177*F CTS ... I have my fan to kick on at 190 and off at 165.

Edit: and no on the O/L bias .. I don't even see that anywhere .. The only thing I can think of is I disabled DFCO so I reenabled it cause it hasn't given me any abrupt surges or anything just disabled for learns

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

What is the O/l bias ? I don't see this parameter anywhere

RBob

iTrader: (1)

With the O2 sensor down stream from the engine, need to use a 3 or 4 wire heated sensor.

RBob.

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

Dang I shoulda thought about that .. O2 is not getting hot enough at idle with my headers to run in closed loop .. Duh! ... I just never knew before I got the ebl .. Thanks a lot RBob

morgsie

iTrader: (1)

I know the 4 wire O2 has separate grounds for the heater and the actual O2 sensor. But when is it necessary to goto a 4 wire over a 3 wire O2?

Cflick

The point of the 4 wire, is mostly so that there is no dependence on the exhaust pipes or the exhaust gaskets to effect a good connection, and to keep the heater voltage off of the signal wires by accident or on purpose.

"Necessary" might be a little strong. I'd say advisable whenever there might be a possibility of developing a bad joint which could become a poor electrical path.

IOW, if you keep the same exhaust well beyond rusty, a 4 wire narrow band would be advisable. If you use stainless for the entire exhaust, or replace it whenever it becomes the least bit discolored, or keep the vehicle in Jay Leno's garage, then it really won't matter much.

If you live in Southern California, and your exhaust system never wears out, that's one thing. If you live in Cleveland where I swear the state has a contract with Detroit to rust out cars as fast as possible with "road salts" then that's another thing.

Doober

Look for the Open Loop flags (OpIdl sounds like it may be checked).

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

Anyone got any parameters that I may can modify slightly to got this thing at its maximum potential ? I'm learning .. It's just taking to long lol n I really ain't had time to do a bunch a learns like I want to with Christmas n all

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

Here's my ve table

RBob

iTrader: (1)

A lot of high values in that table. Either the BPC - BPC vs VAC table is off or the fuel delivery isn't keeping up.

RBob.

Dominic Sorresso

RBob,

I'm wondering if he is using the vacuum port on a VAFPR.

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

Hey RBob .. This is Nate I ordered my ebl couple weeks ago live in alabama .. I contacted u last week cause I HAD my bpc vs vac table set for 40pph inj. And I already did a couple learns ... U told me to just multiply my ve by 1.3 after changing my bpc table to 55pph so I did that and really haven't had time to do and more good learns since .. That all I can think of that was a major change

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

And no vrfpr .. I have 55 pph ( stock LO3 ) at 16 psi .. Bpc is 119 I believe

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Nate, Is this a stock TBI fuel pump? If so it may not be keeping up with the fuel delivery. even if it is an aftermarket pump the fuel filter could be clogged or the line between the pump and output tube could be split.

RBob.

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

No sir it's a TPI pump.. I think ima go get a new fuel preassure gauge it may b off

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Could it not also be an exhaust leak allowing 02 into ext tract being picked up by 02 sensor showing lean condition. Thus adding fuel driving VE values up?