Colts45s

ok well this seems slightly embarrassing lol, but anyways I am fairly new to proming my own chips(25 done so far) and I just cant grasp this idle in gear logic, The car wants to idle fine right at about 900 rpm in park, but as soon as she goes under load Shes dead jim. Rpm's take a nose dive and she just stalls. If i gas and brake at the same time i can keep her running, but deffinately not wanting to keep on with it. I have done my homework and went through the searches, but just couldn't find anything that answered my?.

I have attached my bin where I have played with the iac counts but to no success any tips?

Colts45s

oh and btw its a 92rs with 350tbi xe262 comp cam 700r4 416 heads 61lb/hr injectors 8746 ecm running 61v2 mask performer carb intake transdapt adapterplate got a thermostat housing off of i think a 1/2 ton truck and the tcs is ontop of thermostat if you need anymore info let me know

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

If the $61 XDFs are right that I have. You do not have near enough timing advance. Is your distributer set at 8* BTDC with the ignition timing wire disconnected?

Colts45s

about 10 and i did disconnect the cable while setting timing

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

What are you getting for timing @ say 600 rpm and 40 KPA. From the looks, you have it set at only 16*.

Colts45s

hmm am i supose to add the extra base timming too all cells in SA vs RPM table?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Not all,

Did you start with a 350 bin?

This combo should start and run fine on ANLU.

Colts45s

i am using anlu, but was having some problems obviously like i needed a higher idle and timing to be set and my nb was saying rich rich rich

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

You shouldn't need much more than 650-700 rpm with that cam. It is a very mild cam for a 350. The L98 cam is nearly as hot as that cam is.

ANLU IS setup for 68 lb/hr injectors though.

I have a bin for a 350 running a Mellings MTC1 camshaft and ported 601 heads with 61 lb/hr injectors. It started out as AWKS which is a 305 bin, but I used stuff from ANLU to fill in the timing specifics. Alot of it is my own custom settings, etc.

Feel free to try it out and see what happens.

Colts45s

when ever i try to idle at much below 850 900 it wants to die. would you say that sounds more liek a timing problem?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Try the bin in my last post. I had my similarly cammed 350 TBI running well with it. Smooth idle around 650 RPM, IIRC. 850-900 is definately too high for this cam, something is wrong. Might be fuel, might be timing. They both go hand in hand. You might also have way too many IAC counts. IAC Counts = Vacuum leak. The fewer you have, the better off you have. You eliminate IAC counts by opening up the throttle plates on the TBI.

Colts45s

ok well im going to burn that real quick and let you know how she feels

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I forgot something about this .bin, lol. My distributer was set at 0*. I changed the base setting in the bin for this. If the results are not so good from the above chip. Use this one instead.

Colts45s

oh dear god that was a rush explain the changes in your spark table please
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um results were great she did want to sputter though and seemed to dropping rpm in idle at park but then stabalized

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Only changed 1 setting from what I sent you. It is in the constants. On my XDF it is labeled SA Distributer Base Timing (Initial). That number should always match where your distributer is set at. Your is 10* or close to that. Mine was at 0*. Left unchanged, you end up with 10* more timing across the board and injector firings that are not at the right time.

The cam alters the VE table, the SA table, as well as much more.

There are several reasons for this.

First you lower the dynamic compression ratio of the engine with a cam. That will decrease the vacuum the engine makes. The engine will require a higher idle speed to make the same power at idle. The manifold vacuum is lower which forces the engine rich. At the same time the ECM is richening up the mixture for the increased MAP reading, it is also retarding the timing, which forces the MAP reading higher. It either reaches equilibrium or becomes a vicious cycle. Eventually, (normally seconds) the engine will flood out and die.

Colts45s

ok well ill change the initial base timing setting to 10 deg then and re run her

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I already did that. It is the second .bin that I posted. Cool.

It idled in gear?

I would hold it at fast idle until it goes into closed loop with WinALDL hooked up and running. Then see what is going on, once it hits closed loop.

Colts45s

it did idle in gear with base timing set to 0 but when I used the bin with base set to 10 it was sputtery and wanted to die and did die in gear. I think it would prolly work with base timing set to 6 or 8 but i find it strange that it ran better with initial set to 0 than 10

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

OK than, the timing I was seeing in the .bins is correct then. It is about 10* too retarded.

Colts45s

ok so you think i should leave base at 0 or advance it to about 6? I am gunna wait on your reply then hook up winaldl and see whats up

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I am setting you up a timing table that uses an old school HEI like timing curve to it. It is simple and works well to get you rolling.

Colts45s

ok sweet kool beans

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Try this timing table. If the XDF is correct (can't remember, been too long since I messed with the 8746 much), this should work OK in the timing department for the time being.

Colts45s

ok heres the datalog with the recurve .bin i noticed a racy idle around 880-1000 while in park what you think

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

That is just the BLM tables. Do you have the rest of the log?

The BLMs actually look better than I thought they would.

The IAC also has to reset itself. Usually you have to drive above 30 mph for a certain period of time for it to do this. Basically the ECM closes the IAC valve to get a 0 reference, then opens it back up to the specified counts.

I never have like the 8746 or the 7747 IAC routines.

Colts45s

should be 02 first then knock then blm then int

Colts45s

does the rest not show up?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

All that shows up fine. But if you are using WINALDL, you should also have a log that shows up. From that I can see IAC opening, Engine RPM, MAP, TPS, O2, BLM, INT, etc in chronological order from the datastream.

Colts45s

ok here we go all three of theses where date stamped for tonight so iono which one you need

Colts45s

but i dont see any data there so i dont understand the log your looking for

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

The one I am looking for should be titled something like 20070112_12345_log. It has been a while since I looked at WinALDL to see where it saves this info.

When you open it you should see something like this.

SPEED---TPS-------RPM--------MAP-------BLM
37-------(-1.2)-----1050--------31.8------118
35-------(-1.2)-----1000--------32.5------117
34---------2.1------1025--------38.8------116
34---------7.9------1550--------50.2------128
35---------8.4------1575--------49.1------127
35---------8.4------1600--------48.4------126
36---------8.4------1550--------48.4------126
37---------8.4------1675--------46.5------126
38---------8.4------1600--------46.1------126
39-------12.3------1800--------53.2------125
41-------18.1------1175--------80.8------108
42-------30.4------1275--------90.4------112
43-------47.5------1325--------96.7------115
45-------71.2------2175--------71.2------119
46-------99.6------2575--------97.4------119
49-------99.6------3550--------95.2------119
53-------99.7------3775--------94.9------119
56-------88.1------4100--------94.9------119
58-------58.6------2700--------93.1------119
59-------44.1------2175--------90.8------121
60-------40.3------1650--------91.5------125
60-------37.9------1675--------90.4------124
61-------21.9------1650--------74.2------125
60-------20.5------1675--------62.3------127
60-------15.7------1675--------63.1------128
60-------15.7------1675--------62.3------128
60-------15.7------1650--------62.8------127
60-------15.7------1675--------63.5------128

Plus alot more.

Colts45s

well im out of luck then cause that was all the logs i had. ill try to get em in a few

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

WinALDL right? Thats weird. Did you check the WinALDL program folder.

Colts45s

yup i looked at some older logs with diff bins from back on the 7th and it did have that data but not the ones from tonight
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if youll still be on in about 45 min or so ill try to have a new log posted

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

You have to log the data with the datalogger.

Will probably be off in 45 minutes, but I might still be here. How long are you making each log session?

How was the idle this last time, other than being a little fast?

Colts45s

it was ok it actualy stalled after 45secs to 1 min in gear idle here is the log

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

It went dead lean at idle in closed loop, then died. The overall fueling looks slightly rich at idle. IMO, you need to look into the main VE tables some more and adjust the O2 sensor target voltages and the Proportional gains.

Colts45s

ok well I downloaded a ve fixer table but im not too familiar with adjusting ve adder I know its added constantly to the ve1 table but why not just have it all in the main ve1 table?

Colts45s

hey fast can you check out this data log ant tell me what you think ive already adjusted my ve tables with a ve spreadsheet and it started rich like you said then when i data logged again it way leaned out hmm let me know what you think

Colts45s

bump

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

When it goes into closed loop, it will lean down substantially.

We fixed the timing table already. I think it can stay put for right now.

Just keep working on the VE tables via the WinALDL histogram chart. Use BLM wide average. Try longer trips with longer logs. This will increase your data pool that the averages are based on, making the changes more accurate. Once you get the corrections going, you might hand smooth the VE table in places that do not get hits on them. You should follow the trend that as MAP increases so will VE.

Keep the engine out of PE as much as possible.

Once the VEs start coming into line, everything else will as well.

Finally, you need to make some logs with the engine idling in gear to see what is going on there. It looks like the IAC counts jump way up, the engine loses vacuum, goes rich, then the BLMs correction overshoots back lean and stalls the engine. Once the fueling is corrected it should hold a more stable idle. It still looks like you are trying to idle too high against the transmission.

Is this the stock torque converter still?

If it is still the stock converter, you want to keep the engine speed as low as possible, to keep vacuum up in the engine. If you raise the idle up, the engine will be battling the converter, the IAC counts will increase, the vacuum will drop, and the engine will load up, and can stall.

I ran no more than 750 RPM in Drive with my 224/224 @ .050 cammed 305.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Also, double check your XDF files for the VE FL1 table. When that table is opened in TP there should be 9 rows of MAP, from 100 to 20 KPA. Then 8 columns of RPM, from 4 to 32 (x100).

Many of the '7747 & '8746 ECU/XDF files are not correct for the FL1 VE table. The axis are reversed. Which means you will be changing the wrong area of the table.

RBob.

Colts45s

can other things effet your ve tables and blms because Ive made changes 3 times now to the ve tables and it seems to be hopping between rich and lean

Colts45s

ok well i been working with these ve tables and ive burned about 5 of them and im still getting the problem of hoping between lean and rich and Ive been staying out of pe and not getting on it but I did experiment once with raising bpw from 130 to 135(stock anlu) and noticed the problem isn't as bad. I just dont see how to work the ve tables to cure the lean out at idle when I dont get enough samples with the 8746 to truly tune that range because it just dies. Iono you all have been very helpfull sofar and I would apreciate any more advice I am off work today so Ill be working with it all day so let me know Ill keep checking in and btw it is stock tq converter. Also Rbob how much more efficient is your ebl system and do you think it would help me with tuning besides my old 8746 and is it an easy install?

Colts45s

also fast i noticed this modded bin you helped me with dropped park position iac steps from 160 to 95 should i drop that anymore and also when I bumped bpw by 5 it seems my idle in park is better but my idle in drive still stalls after a cpl seconds ill be posting some datalogs soon

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

The idle in park/neutral is likely too rich and in Drive, too rich as well. That is due to the MAP based system. What you need to do is enable open loop. This will allow you to determine if the problem is with the Proportional gains or the VE table.

How does it idle in open loop?

If it idles fine in open loop, but dies in closed loop look into the Porportional gains.

If the stall is still there in open loop, it is the VE tables.

I am willing to bet that both are pretty far off still.

I change the IAC park position to help keep the RPMs from flaring up on a cold startup.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Installation into the vehicle is easy. Unplug your ECM and plug in the EBL enhanced ECM. If you are looking at the self install EBL board I recommend that you look at the install guide on the website. It is a straight forward install into the ECM.

As for tuning, night and day difference with an EBL setup. Like someone turned on every flood light in the area. High speed data logging. Auto VE Learn. Many data variables available. Graphing. . .

RBob.

Colts45s

ok well the stall is slowly going away so i think im getting there ill keep yall posted

Colts45s

hey fast Ive been slowly SLOWLY getting a little progress but the problem still remains included are 2 bins and my last datalog #18 bin is what was used when datalog was made and #20 has the ve corrections according to the datalog IM on my way out to make one more little run can you tell me if Im going in the right direction. I also noticed some knock as u'll see in the log do you think this might be contributing to the problem?

Colts45s

here is the ve correction sheet with the data log my blms look almost perfect IMO but still same drivability problems