Hy,

this is my first post and i`m very sorry about my english cause i`m from Germany.

I hope you could help me a bit

I have a new 350 HO with a GMPP Intake vor tbi on Vortec Heads.
I have Gibson shorty headers, and running the 7747 ecu with asdu file..

My problem: at idle the motor is running fine. But it has less power and misfire if i gave some gas. I Think the chip might be the prblem.

So i have all the stuff to program a new chip.
I had loged some data with winaldl.
I also created a new .bin file with aldltobin.exe with the wide BLM data and burned it to a chip.

Ok the chip is working. bUt the problem is the same.

I think I have to make changes at the spark tables not only with the BLM data, is that right?

Has somebody make a chip for a 350HO (330HP Vortec heads) with TBI bevore?
Does somebody have some god tips for me to get a well working chip?


thanks a lot
and best regards
Andi

 

you will find spark tables for Vortec here on this site. I believe recently posted by Fast355. I would search his posts. Vortec tables you will see less SA aka "fast burn".

Quote: But it has less power and misfire if i gave some gas. I Think the chip might be the prblem.

When you datalog try not to "give it some gas". Slow and steady pedal preferably on a level road so as to not invoke AE. Most likely your drivability issues are fuel related. After you see BLM's at 123-133 through out your logs you will be pretty close. I would suggest being on the rich side(123) is better than on the lean side(133). Some rpm/map cells are difficult to get hits. Plan on burning a lot of .bins.

How is the idle quality?

 

If the motor is could , idle is much better than with my 305 bevore.
If the motor is warm idle is a little to low. Maybe a wrong thermostat (180°)
Is the normal one a 160°? I don`t know.

but thanks for the tip with the spark tables. now i have time to search cause i`m wating for the uv erasur ( don`t have blank chips).

Sorry i`m german, what means "Sa aka"? ah its Spark advanced

my present blm (after first chip burning) looks as follow:

Wide Avg 10
RPM \ MAP 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
400 0.0 0.0 0.0 119.1 114.1 124.3 0.0 0.0 0.0
800 0.0 108.0 119.6 111.6 127.3 135.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
1200 124.5 108.4 108.0 130.3 143.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
1600 125.0 118.0 0.0 136.0 128.0 139.8 134.1 131.9 0.0
2000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 130.3 127.8 129.0 0.0
2400 0.0 0.0 0.0 130.0 138.0 131.0 128.0 0.0 0.0
2800 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
3200 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
3600 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4800 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
5200 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
5600 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
6000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
6400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0


looks like i need an uv erasur or a lot of new chips

 

QUOTE=sandor;4133406]If the motor is could , idle is much better than with my 305 bevore.
If the motor is warm idle is a little to low. Maybe a wrong thermostat (180°)
Is the normal one a 160°? I don`t know.

When motor is cold it is in open loop OL runningwithout 02 sensor feedback. common to see it better as the VE tables need work. your BLM look typical of a untuned engine. Good news is it should be able to get that fixed with a few more winaldl logs. therm should be a 180. If a 160 replace it before you attempt any further tuning. you should see the winaaldl log flip to closed loopCL when temps are above 160 or 180 for a minute.

but thanks for the tip with the spark tables. now i have time to search cause i`m wating for the uv erasur ( don`t have blank chips).

Sorry i`m german, what means "Sa aka"? same as ...?

SA= spark advance aka = also known as

me German too. aka deuch-ferderber ? cant speak german
grandfater born city? Fiert ?? near Munich



my present blm (after first chip burning) looks as follow:

Wide Avg 10
RPM \ MAP 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
400 0.0 0.0 0.0 119.1 114.1 124.3 0.0 0.0 0.0
800 0.0 108.0 119.6 111.6 127.3 135.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
1200 124.5 108.4 108.0 130.3 143.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
1600 125.0 118.0 0.0 136.0 128.0 139.8 134.1 131.9 0.0
2000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 130.3 127.8 129.0 0.0
2400 0.0 0.0 0.0 130.0 138.0 131.0 128.0 0.0 0.0
2800 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
3200 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
3600 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4800 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
5200 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
5600 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
6000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
6400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0


looks like i need an uv erasur or a lot of new chips[/QUOTE]

 

ok, i hope i get some 2732 tomorrow to check out the SA table i found in the vortec spark table thread. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/atta...c-table-sm.jpg and log some new data.

But theres another question. I calibrated the timing to 0° with disconnected (tan/blk) cable. Is think thats right for n tbi. But the documentation from the create engine says to me 10°BTDC but I think its only for carb, isn`t it?

@ Ronny i know a city called Fürth thats were i bought my first v8. I think its 200km away from munich, but in "USA dimensions" its very close to munich

 

Seems like a bit too much spark BUT I dont run Vortec heads. I see 36 deg MAX plus what ever PE adder you have. I think 7747 has an adder. I ran 7747 for 2 seasons.

The SA initial physical timing at the distributor(0 or 6 or 10) (with EST disconnected) needs to match the same in .bin. Mine is 10 SA at dist and same in .bin. What you see in that table is what engine then would see. Plus the PE adder if any.

Furth yes that is it.

 

yes i think there is an adder. i will check this tomorrow. But i thinkit might be at 10° btdc. So idle timing might be right?
yes, i think it was the EST cable i had unpluged.

 

Just to repeat. physical postion of dist must be known. Mine is 10 deg adv. that is set in .bin as same. then idle is what ever you wish in .bin. I idle 24 deg adv. My idle is locked in .bin and will not wander if rpm changes(surge). You need to look at Vortec .bin to see what the idle rpm is set at. I will guess less than 24 deg?

 

THX vor reply. It`s 10 deg adv. too at dist. But in bin. i had 0 deg from stock asdu file.

But now i can`t check changes, cause my starter is brocken. I ordered one at summit. But that take a while to Germany. Hope that time of waiting will have n end...

 

So globally you will have 10 deg additional timing as a result.

 

Yesterday i found this (very helpful)
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-prom/317768-timing-logics-anyone.html

I will have a report about my timings ...hope this week...

 

so what a luck that the starter is gone.

Today i made a bin with new spark timings. Now i Think i understad the most constants and tables, and witch values have to added or subtracted.
Now i have tested every extrem situation against the max and min spark and i think im never about 142 deg.

I also set the int. spark to 10deg in bin. and turnd the dist. a little back. Have to check this with timing light if the strater is here.

Hope that would work.

The only question at the moment i have is, why is the ALDL/closed loop spark so high in std. asdu bin. file? its at 8deg. Is that normal. Doeas anyone know why?

thanks
Sandor

 

ALDL CL spark ? I think that is the timing when the engine is in diagnostic mode. That may be an adder not the actual SA the engine sees. I dont believe 8deg would be the actual SA. I recall some engines increase in RPM when in ALDL mode. That might explain the adder?

Quote: and i think im never about 142 deg.

142 deg SA ??? typo?

Remember Vortec needs less spark. truck less than a light car I recall.

 

Sandor, what injectors do you have? If they are from your 305...might be a problem.

 

Hy,

no i`m using the Injectors from a 350cui (206).(inkl. pressure regulator)
In the last post i made a mistake . Max sa is not 142 , its 42 deg.
I think the cool. comp. table subtracts 10 deg. from main sa. at 85°C ( if i`m right).
Now i have a prob with backfire at low rpm and high kpa. But i think ve is very rich at this condition. Or is there too less sa?

And i have a prob with the idle at 85°C temp. In desired c/l idle speed its 525rpm from 85 to 100 °C temp. Is that ok? I think if the motor reached 525 rpm its running bad and its going back to 600-700rpm and so on. Can i change the idle rpm to 600rpm at that temperatur? or would this bring another issue.

I hope i get a fuel pressure gauge tomorrow. Never had probs. with that, but during the engine swap i changed the fuel line, filter and fittings. Didn`t found any leaks, so i thougt its allrigt, but i will chek this tomorrow.

Thank you for replys.

regards Sandor

 

I can send you my current bin that I am using in my vortec/tbi 5.7. It will be tomorrow before I can acess my files, if you are interested. Luke.

 

That may be a sign of too lean. If you could idle in open loop and then add fuel in the
rpm/coolant VAC tables that may help. My car likes OL idle and I am around 13.0/1 A/F at idle.

 

Sounds good.

Do you use EGR?

regards
Sandor

 

@Ronny. Is that realy a sign of too lean? cause the BLM is less than 128. Thout that means too rich? Or m ì wrong? now i`m at home and forgot my notebook in my "garage" (parents home), so i will post my latest blm tomorrow.
But i can add F/A ratio to try out. too much F/A is not badly for the motor, or?

Thanks
Sandor

 

BLM 129-135 in not necessarily "too lean". BLM 121-127 is not too rich. All that means is the ECU is adding fuel to arrive at stoich(14.7 for reg or 14.3 for E10). Granted having a tune that is 128 in all cells is ideal. This morning I was globally <128. I believe idle quality should be-could be OK at stoich in closed loop. I just feel it is improved at a richer A/F and more so on a modded non emishions engine. I believe CL idle is done for emishions? And possibly for fuel economy. I had serious surging at idle after modding my engine. Enrichment was one of several things I did to improve idle.

 

Jippi , motor is running fine at idle and closed loop. It swing only 25rpm up and down.

And the backfire are gone. Did all with sa adjustment.
First i tried was to enrich F/A, but this didn`t work till unburned fuel came out of the exhaust....to much

 

Sorry about the time gone by...
If I do this right, there should be a working bin for vortec/tbi. I believe EGR is activated. 5.7vortec/tbi,700r4,456 gears, 35" tires...some 3rd gen huh?

 

Hi

@ drowning in tbi: i tried the bin you postet. The SA Tables are realy good. The VE are much to rich, for my setup. (had a lot of unburned fuel in the exhaust). But thx for the SA Table

 

Does your injector constant match the injectors you have?

 

Good question. Didn`t look after that.Do you know who the injector constant is called in TunerPro? But i changed the TB since last post to a 46mm and fuel pressure is now at 14 psi-illogical. Now its not to rich. only sometimes for a vew seconds i get a rich flag. And BLM are close to 128. Don`t know if the TB change was the reason for that?
But i think i damaged the IAC.

If i now start the motor cold, idle is okay in OL.
at 80 °C in P idle is still okay with the IAC at 83.
if i switch to D idle goes down, and came up again to 550 rpm while the IAC changes from 83 to 144.
Okay, but if i switch back to Park, IAC remains at 144 and motor goes up to 1100 - 1200 rpm. Is that a problem with the bin or did i damage the IAC? I tried to set "IAC Park Position" from 144 to 83 but it seemed that the different was subtracted from the IAC at all. IAC starts at 60 at warm condition and motor is not starting till i change the trottle.
thanks
Sandor

 

anyone out there that can help our friend?

 

83 is a lot for IAC at idle. Look at this link to set Minimum Air and TPS. I shoot for 20 to 40 IAC at warmed up idle.

If you ncan turn the pindle in the IAC it is damaged. If you had the IAC removed and turned engine on it probably popped out, it can be screwed back in and reset but I never figured out how.
https://www.thirdgen.org/tpimod2

 

The last post in the thread was 2 years ago...but he is still active on the forum according to his profile. Maybe he'll see this and pop in and let us know if/how he fixed his problem

 

 

Hi,

yes i'm still active... more ore less.
I got it managed to get a good working chip. But don't ask how i did it.
I moved to Australia a Year ago. Thout i could take my Jeeprolet and my G20 with me. But it cost me a fortune and just makes no sense. So, I hope i get a Camaro gen1 this or next week *jeah,jeah,jeah makes me sooo happy*. It comes with a 327 SB.

I guess i will replace the 327 with a 350 with thumper cam. And thought i should maybe use a TBI Computer just for the ignition part and run the fuel part with caburator.
But first the car, then the upgrades...

Or better. I ship my 350HO from Germany to Australia after importing it for heaps of money to germany from USA