Just installed a Lc1 kit on my 87 305 TPI.

I wanted to start with some tuning after I did some modifications to my engine. Have headers,cam and aluminum heads etc.
3:42 gears.

I am starting out with a BIN file for a 89 model LB9 engine with 6E tuning.

Anyway the problem is at the gauge. The engine idles at an AFR at 13.4 and 13.0...And WOT is as low as 9.7 on the gauge but in TunerPro it shows that engine is good after the Rich/Lean reader...
Any idea what could cause this?..I have tried to adjust injector constants and such and the AFR changes but recalibrates when in closed loop after a few seconds. So injector constant is now set to 19.48 where it should be.

The engine is idling well though. Same as with driving but I just feel that the car is not tuned properly.

I am using the wideband as a narrowband signal as well...Tried to switch between the stock O2 but the same AFR is showing so I guess the problem doesn't come from the lambda. Mayby the LC1 signal to the gauge is wrong???

 

What is the A/F in CL cruising? I would tend to believe the gauge.

Do both the ECU and the LC1 have a solid ground? I believe it is recommended they be a common ground.

 

It shows about between 12.8 to about 13.4 or something like that.
I guess it could be the gauge but I just think that is funny also since the LC1 kit is brand new.

I have solid grounds on both of them directly to the negative port on the battery.

 

I don't have that specific WB but is there any" free air" calibration that needs to be done before you use it?

So your using the wideband as a guage only, and then useing a simulated narrow band off the LC1 controler to run into the ecm?

Where did you place the new WB o2 sensor? Did you basically take out the stock one and put this new one in its place?

I grounded both my ecm and my SLC WB kit to the same place but it was directly next to the ecm where it was originally grounded.

What does the Mv of the simulated narrowband say when?

 

I did the heater calibration test AND the free air calibration test as explained in the Lc1 user manual. Now I am using my Lc1 as a narrowband signal also. The Lc1 has to output's so you can use it as a AFR gauge AND as a narrowband signal to the ECM.

I have placed the sensor just before the cat. I drilled out a hole and put a bung there instead. My Lc1 did show AFR about 14.7 before I changed my heads though. Could this affect it so much??..

I upgraded my engine recently with corvette heads. (L98).
They have bigger intake and exhaust valves than the stock heads on my Lg4.

 

I understand what you mean with the simulated NB output. What does it read?? Say when your afr is 10-14? In Mv..

The heads could make it run quite different. Is it rich the whole time? Or just at idle and lean up top? Opps I just read that its stinking rich up top. Well I would "think" that with the better heads that it would actually be leaner up top since your moving more air in the car. But I could be wrong. Check the NB Mvolts and see if it is basically on pace with the WB AFR.

 

Alex: I would run your question by the Innovate tech or Innovate Forum.

I believe the issues you are having are not uncommon but can be corrected. Seems this has come up a few times in past threads.

Is using the WB as a simulator for NB differrent than using the WB voltage direct to ECU? Rather than a simulation? That may be specific to aftermarket ECU's only.

 

I agree and would look to contact Innovative for some help on the issue.

There is a difference between using the simulated narrowband output into the ecm and the wideband linear output into the ecm. The 0-1vt and 0-5vts is the difference.

There is a linear output on the controler that is for 0-5vts for the wideband into the ecm if you choose. Depending one the ecm and the ADX file you can use this. You don't need to do this if your just reading the guage and not datalogging.

There is a simulated narrowband output on the controler for 0-1vt for the NB into the ecm if you choose. The NB can easily be added to the ecm if you use the same pin as the original NB o2 sensor you had prior.

 

sorry if stupid Q but does Alex have a controller? My LM1 has the controller. Does LC1 have same?

 

I hope he does????

 

I have thought about contacting the innovate forum (support) help but I just wanted to check on this forum first. There are so many experienced people around here that have helped me out much before.

Anyway you are understanding correct about my wiring now. That I am using the Lc1 as a narrowband signal for my ECM AND using the other analog output as a AFR ratio to show the AFR on my gauge.

But 2 weeks ago I used my stock o2 sensor on the header. Everything was excactly the same back then. The reason why I now use the Lc1 as a narrowband signal instead of the stock sensor is that I wanted to check if there was any difference using the WB sensor. But since I still got the same AFR on my gauge and car is running the same I guess this is not the problem.

I chekced my mV at the o2 today after some ALDL logging. And on idling the sensor reads about 2-300mV but several pulses that jumps up to 8-900mV...I can post one of my ALDL log files here if that is helpful for others. I appreciate your help so far. :-)

 

Post a log up if ya can. Ill look at it, but can you post it in cvs/excel format? I have tunerpro stuff and dont have your Xdf.

 

Here you go fasteddi.
I am sorry that it took so long but I have been so busy the last days with another project car I am working on. :-)

I just converted the log file to *.cvs format. Hope you can sort everything out in Excel because I havent done that. Thanks for helping me by the way :-)

 

Just for example my simulated NB reads almost .500mv on the dot when my WB reads 14.5-14.7. So they do spit out the same readings.

How do your plugs look again? Running sub 11:1-10:1 AFR's without boost and mods like that is just stinking rich. Even with a turbo, sub 11:1 AFR's is way too much fuel and will fowl plugs and wash out the cylinders. They should be black as can be. Go WOT from like 0-80Mph then shut the car off as soon as you let off the throttle and cost to a stop. Take a few random plugs out and look at it, if its not black or somewhat sooty and your reading sub 11:1-10:1 Afrs then you do have a issue on it reading false. I tune personally for 12.5:1 without my alky injection and that will produce a beautiful tan color on the plugs if you shut it down as soon as you let off and pull a plug.

The spark plugs are a nice "reality check "when it comes to Afr's and spark knock.

 

Actually..the csv file you got from me was when I used the stock bosch sensor on my headers..It is brand new so it should be working.
I am actually getting a bit confused on my tpi system..i installed the system several years ago and still I am not getting it to work as it should..I have started to wonder ifbthe used Ecm i bought on ebay actyally can be bad..is that a possibility??..The bin file I am running now comes from a 89-fbody car with 2.73 gears.
I havent done much tuning with the car but I still feel that the engine is running as bad as the first time I started up after converting to tpi..everything was stock back then but still not runned good...do you agree that the ecm itself could be bad??

 

First check id do is get a new set of plugs or clean yours off. Run at cruise or idle for alittle while and look at wide band air fuel. Stop and check spark plugs. Idle and cruise around 14.7 to 1 should look tanish or slight white. If its dark blackish color then it is rich and wideband is correct

If not then wideband is wrong.

My turbo car was idling 12 to one or so and my fresh exhaust pipes and o2 were thoroughly coated black soot. I know its rich and guage is pretty accurate. Leaned it out 15 to 1 and its getting better

 

I have a brand new set of plugs installed now..I am actually sitting in my Camaro now when I am writing at the forum..Got my laptop with me so I can tune.
Now I am running the stock sensor again..And still I have so big variations on the mV inside the TunerPro. It is idling at .700 to.939 or so and have small drops down to .153 or so..I guess this is causing a rich idle???

I know you want me to check the spark plugs but I just cant understand how I am supposed to tune a car with that method.
And then again what am I looking for when I say tuning. That is of course the most power out of my engine when I want it, and that the engine stay lean or economic when light cruising :-)

And thanks to you Orr89RocZ you have learned me that adjusting the MAF tables are the way to go. And then the PE vs RPM tuning and also the timing tables.

 

Here is another quick ALDL log I did today. This is also with a brand new O2 sensor connected to the headers. I got the same numbers as when I used the WB as the narrowband signal.

Any idea what could cause this rich idling??...

 

Plugs are to check fuel mixtures. You look for color patterns and such. Once you can verify wideband is normal you can tune off that.

If you are setup to run closed loop, o2 mv will fluctuate above and below 450 mv or so. Its a rich lean swing to check for fuel mixtures and make corrections as needed. Open loop wouldnt do this or shouldnt. In closed loop watch blm (block learn) and int (integrater). Ecm targets 128 for stoich fuel ratio of 14.7 to 1. You want to make all part throttle stuff close to 128

 

The NB O2 signal in that log is normal. That is how it is supposed to look. The ECM forces the AFR to oscillate, which is what is shown.

Since you are using $6E you can enable highway lean cruise mode. That will help with mileage.

Be sure to visit the Tuning Guide Book sticky up top. The section on the '7165 ECMs has a lot of good information in it for you.

RBob.

 

Did some more testing today and things got better actually. I did a new Air calibration test to my Lc1 and after that it seems like the gauge is showing more correct values for the WB.

Anyway, my problem now is that it is still showing to rich. I tuned it to around 14.7 - 15.5 in idle at OPEN loop mode. Car idles ok.

As soon as I enable the closed loop mode it changes to around 13.7 at the gauge...Car still idles fine..Actually a bit better.

So what could be causing this?...I mean the LC1 kit is brand new. All the calibration settings should be good as well. I have reset the whole unit using the correct settings as mentioned in the LC1 user manual. And done the calibration tests. Could this actually be something with the Lc1 itself??..I just think that is weird...

 

Did you post on Innovate Forum or speak to Felipe at Innovate Support 1-800?

I think this issue came up with others. I would do a search here for outcome fix. All I recall is a need for common ground with ECU

 

To clarify, Is the problem
a.) that the gauge reads differently than TP?
or
b.) They read close enough together that you feel the tuned values are not running as good as they should?

If "a" then confirm actual voltage into the ECM is reading the correct value out in the datastream. IOW input a 2.5 volt signal and verify it is middle of the road in counts. There could be a pull up/down circuit on the pin being used for the WB input that would make the gauge and ECM scales different.

If "b" then its a matter of finding what the combination likes.

 

I am sorry if things seems a little bit unclared now because I have mentioned several issues on top. I will try to explain.

I am using the stock sensor on the headers. In other words that sensor is connected to the ECM in the car. I run the ECM with Ostrich 2 so I can do realtime emulation.

I have installed a WB sensor just before the cat and that WB signal goes to a DB gauge that came with the LC1 kit installed on my A-pillar.


So what I am saying is that my gauge did show some rich values with the stock maf tables used (I am using a BIN file called APYM)

I forced the ECM to stay in open loop mode and tuned the MAF tables to more like 14.9-15.5

And then as soon as I turn on closed loop mode again, it just goes back to the 13.5 AFR...

 

Not sure if this of help but have you tried running lambda instead of 14.x/1?

Delco sensor? The swings look normal?

 

I'm not sure if I follow you on the Lambda part?...I am using the stock sensor as a lambda signal yes, if that is what you meant?

I have also tried using the LC1 narrowband signal cable and got the same results there...

 

I meant have Lc1 report in Lambda on gauge. Like .910 is rich. 1.00 is stoich. 1.005 is lean.

 

I came back from the car again now..I actually adjusted a little bit on the MAF scalar 1 constant.

I know I shouldn't be doing much adjustments on those but it was standing on 16. And after I tried to set it to 15 it got leaner on the WB gauge in closed loop. I put it at around 14 and now it is idling at 14.7 15.2...

 

Car did not run any better at all so I adjusted the MAF scalars back to the stock settings and took the car for a new ride today. Did a lot of WOT acceleration and observed that I should retard the timing a little at higher RPMs...Really a lot of knock if I am not wrong.

I will add an attachment of the trip today as well so you guys can have a look at it. This time I was using my Lc1 kit as the narrowband signal.


I feel the car should have more power with the setup installed now but I guess that is just something I feel. I am using almost a stock prom (APYM)
Only that I have disabled AIR pump and EGR.

So what do you guys think???

 

That is alot of KR there and counts as well.

I dont know much about MAF tuning at all, so I can't say much about your scalars or anything like that. I use speed density, here boosted apps.

That is the stock bin file basically? And you have heads, headers and mods like that? I bet your lean up on the top rpms. That can cause your KR. Did you get the AFR readout on the guage to be right yet?

If it were me though I know I would be taking out timing chunks at a time to get the KR gone asap. 10*KR or as many knock counts your seeing must be taken as real knock and gotten rid of if you wana keep doing WOT pulls to tune, and have piece of mind.

Ill be honest here in saying I don't know much about tuning a N/A car period. What is the correct AFR to aim for under WOT... 13:1 or so when the compression is somewhat low. Under 10:1? Or is that too lean? Im not sure and mabey you already know....

 

Hey Eddi.

I just leaved the MAF scalar tables to the stock settings since those aren't meant to be touched in the first place. The MAF tables is where I want to tweak things leaner or richer after what I have learned on this forum.

Yeah that is a stock BIN file as posted called APYM. Should be the stock for a 89 305MAF TPI with 2.73 heads. I guess there should be some minor changes since I have 3.42 heads now but anyway the fuel controling should be the same if I am not wrong.
Mayby it is too lean or mayby it is to rich I don't know. What I do know is that I can't trust the Lc1 gauge I have installed because that one still shows to rich values. I have adjusted the LC1 to send signals from 0V to 5V where 0V should be 7.35AFR and 5V should be 22.39AFR.
I just don't understand why my gauge shows about 13.4 when idling fine on stock settings. BLM's are about 130 as well.
When I start to drive the gauge goes down to about 12.9 - 12.5.

When I hit the WOT the gauge shows 9.5-9.9 which is way to rich if you ask me but it must be wrong

When it comes to the knock counts and those big knock retards i guess I need to retract some degrees in those areas. But then again I think I could advance a degree or two in the areas which doesn't knock now. Just to check how much timing I could perform. I know that over 10degrees with knock retards is not a good thing at all but this was some really WOT driving with manual shifting. But I would try to get rid of it. :-)

 

Well from my own experience I know that if its a overly rich condition spark knock can show its face and its false KR. Don't ask me why as the person who told me this said the same thing, but once I was leaning it out the KR went away. Weird I know.

Usually I will just remove large chunks of timing, if the KR goes away then you found the issue. If it doent go away and or gets worse then you may be fat rich? Just a thought.

My buddy is usuing the same bin you are, I tried to tune it for him a few times and only modded the timing with small increments of fuel. I cant remember what exact table I used. I know it was the MAF fueling table but I basical read up on it as i tuned. I like speed density much better for its simplicity, so im basically bias twards it ATM.

If it is really 9.? AFRs in WOT, yes that is way way to rich? Did you ever try the WOT pull then shut the car of, coast to a stop, and chanck a random plug. (afrs will produce a very dark plug if the guage is reading right)

 

I just need to reply here that I got rid of the "gauge showing to rich" problem.

It is really something as stupid and easy as the wiring to the Lc1.
When I connected the Lc1 for the first time I made a new ground source straight from the negative terminal on the battery. Then I spliced one of the wires on the fuse box and routed that wire to the positive side of the Lc1.

It seems like the main light switch is affecting the gauge a LOT. When cruising the AFR gauge shows 13.2 with light switch on and 14.5 with light switch off.

So now I am just embarrased, but now you know how simple the problem was. I really didn't know that something as simple as this could affect the voltage.