ULTM8Z

Just had another experience which convinces me of this... (my earlier experiences can be found with a search on my user name)

A friend of mine with a bone stock 305 TPI (7730) just swapped out his old Multecs for Bosch III's he bought from a well known injector vendor. Same advertised flow rate as the OEM's => 19 lb/hr.

BLM's immediately pegged at 160. He spent some time trying to fix other things that he thought were the issue...

Vendor said to bump fuel pressure to 46 psi to solve the problem... so he bought an adjustable regulator and set it to 46, but BLM's didn't budge.

Later on he engaged me to try to tune it...

All I did was set the injector constant to 17 lb/hr, put in the closest Bosch-III injector PW vs battery voltage correction values I could find, and zero out the low PW correction table... boom... BLM's back to hovering between 124 and 134.

Anyway, just a heads up for anyone considering upgrading to Bosch-III's.

araugh

Thanks for posting this. This is interesting, upon discovering a few of the OEM fuel injectors in an 89 trans am I bought a month ago were dead I bought a set of Bosch Gen II 19lb injectors from South Bay after reading here they were a direct replacement, no retuning required. Since then I've been chasing down a persistent high idle and running rich with no success. Do you think this could be a tuning issue as well? If so, any tips for things to look out for while scanning beyond BLM?

Thanks for any tips or advice you could provide.

ULTM8Z

I'm not sure about Bosch-II's. My previous set was Bosch-II 24lb injectors that I got with my Miniram kit from TPIS many years ago. Those are the only injectors I ever ran before embarking on my injector swap to Bosch-III's (which itself was an extremely painful learning experience), so I never had the experience of going from OEM's to Bosch-II's. I always thought I had those Bosch-II's running well, but even at part throttle the Bosch-III's run way better... Since I don't think it's anything to do with the injectors themselves, it has to be that the tune wasn't optimal for the Bosch-II's. I also never had a wideband on at the same time as the Bosch-II's, so it's all speculation at this point.

However, I do know that, in addition to the inejctor flow rate constant, the other two tables I mention above are critical with Bosch-III's... Whether starting from the OEM Multec's or from Bosch II's.

Nevertheless, I'd recommend making sure all of the above tables and values are correct when swapping for any non-OEM injectors (even if the advertised flow rate is the same).

Fred SS

iTrader: (3)

ULTM8Z, can you post the Bosch-III injector PW vs battery voltage correction values that you used? Thanks.

ULTM8Z

See post #2

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...r-offsets.html

Fred SS

iTrader: (3)

Cool, Thanks ULTM8Z.


Fred

FieroDoug

In my case, I will be basically starting from the ground up on Lazarus ('61 GMC w/ 5.0 TPI and 4-speed manual). It sounds like it will be worth the purchase of the Bosch Gen 3s and make the software adjustments for the improved drivability.

Does that sound like a better path than the simple Gen 2 swap?

ULTM8Z

I'd go with the Bosch III's. They're not at all difficult to tune for once they're understood and they do run very well.

As with the example in my original post in this thread, I had his car dialed-in in about 15 minutes.

Dartht33bagger

Are these the injectors you guys are talking about: http://www.southbayfuelinjectors.com...rvette-c4-l98/

I bought those for my 350 so I just want to be 100% clear that this thread is referencing the Bosch D3 injectors. I want to be prepared for odd tuning issues

BOTTLEDZ28

iTrader: (9)

subbed

ULTM8Z

yeah thats them

Dartht33bagger

In the EBL bin I'm using as my base tune, I found the table you were talking about (Injector correction offset). The bin I'm using has a higher resolution on the voltage axis vs the offset than the table you provided. Did you notice a similar difference when working on your friends car and how did you decide to round the values?

My table attached.

I'm planning on changing the injector constant to 20#/hr to match the -2 you did with the 19#/hr injectors. I'm also assuming the PW table you zero'd out was "small PW correction"?

ULTM8Z

I believe there's some linear interpolation you have to do when voltages in the injector datasheet don't match the values in the x-axis in the bin.

But, there was such a difference between the Bosch-III values and the $8D factory values, that percentage error between what you enter (which may not fit the Bosch-III curve exactly) vs the ideal value for the injector is very small.

In other words, as long as you're pretty close to the Bosch-III values, should see a marked improvement in driveability and power over hte factory $8D values.

Yes, zero out the small PW correction values.

BOTTLEDZ28

iTrader: (9)

I just spoke to Southbay about this and they are aware of this thread. I'm kind of hoping they chime in here with some information for us.

ULTM8Z

Yeah I'd be curious to get their take as well.

92GTA

iTrader: (11)

Hmmm. I have the SouthBay TPI modified Bosch III injectors I bought from them about 7 years ago. They are 30lb. I had Accel 30lb injectors for about 8 years prior until they ate it. Swapping from the Accel to the Bosch III after readjusting my rail psi at idle to be stock (it had gone off by a couple psi over the years), I didn't even need to change anything in my tune. I did spend allot of time tuning for my Accel injectors originally though.

I don't recall allot of issues going from the original Multec injectors to the Accel injectors but maybe I'm just forgetting because it's been so long.

bdads

how would I convert this info to fit an $6E bin ? the offset area seems to be different values ..... thanx

RBob

iTrader: (1)

See post #5:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...gn-iii-pw.html

For the 0 volt offset entry, use the same value as the 12.8 v entry.

RBob.

IROCThe5.7L

I don't mean to hijack. Are these the same but just at 30#? I cannot find the offsets that will work in $6E.

https://www.fuelinjectorconnection.c...impedance.html

92GTA

iTrader: (11)

Are these what people refer to as "SVO" injectors? Can't answer your question tho, I know nothing about Fo*d stuff lol.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

This should be the correct data for those injectors:

Injector Data Sheet: M-9593-BB302 (EV6 30 #/hr) 280-155-759

Fuel Pressure: 44 psi
Flow rate: 32.3 #/hr

Offset Compensation versus Battery Voltage:
6.4 Volts: 3193 usec
8.0 Volts: 2163 usec
9.6 Volts: 1618 usec
11.2 Volts: 1278 usec
12.8 Volts: 1031 usec
14.4 Volts: 821 usec
15.0 Volts: 784 usec*

RBob.

IROCThe5.7L

You seriously rock. You help this forum out so much. Thank you very much. It's much appreciated.

ULTM8Z

Ain't that the truth!!

bdads

much thanx--- will give it a try !!!

Dartht33bagger

Just a heads up to everyone: changing the injector flow rate matters a lot. When modifying my bin I changed the injector offset correction table and the small pulse width correction tables to the values stated earlier in this thread. But I made a stupid mistake and forgot to adjust the injector flow rate from 22# to 19#.

That small error had me chasing lean issues for 2 weeks. At idle my VE table values were in the low 70s to get a BLM around 128 while still trending towards the lean side. Because my idle VE table values were so high, I ran out of room quickly when going into higher RPM and MAP values.

Then last night I thought to check the injector flow rate value and sure enough, I had forgotten to change it. Once it was set at 19#, my BLMS looked MUCH better. I went back to the original bin I started with before modifying the VE tables for the lean issues, and my fueling was almost spot on. Rich in a few areas even - something I had never seen before making this adjustment.

Tootie Pang

iTrader: (2)

Well son of a gun... I have been chasing this... hopefully this is my problem... but dang, lotsa dollars and elbow grease replacing just about dang near everything...

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...e-stumble.html

So, should I reinstall my Multecs or find someone to pay to program my ECM for these things? I suppose I could learn myself.

Kinda ticked. I spoke to SouthBay and they didn't mention anything about this.

It's like I created a new problem when trying to fix another... BUT I am excited, maybe this is my problem. The car is so close to running perfect OEM.

peterc005

I've got a 1988 L98 350 TPI Mass Air Flow car and bought a new set of Bosch 3 24lb injectors.

In the future I will replace the stock 165 ECU with a new Haltech Platinum GM Sport ECU.

My question is, while still using the stock MAF 165 ECU would I need to reburn the PROM or would the MAF system be flexible enough to handle the new injectors?

ULTM8Z

My friends car also didn't run terrible either... just high BLMs and some mild stumbling.

So yeah that could be your issue.

The injector company I was dealing with wasn't at all helpful with me when I was trying to figure out the issue on my car. And frankly these modified Bosch-IIIs sometimes may not even correspond to the offset tables they're supposed to use. On my car, I had to go get factory Ford injectors and use the table for those in order to be successful. The ones i bought earlier that were 19 lb and modified to be 30 lb were literally un-tunable ( you can search on my user name looking for threads on Bosch-IIIs).

Tootie Pang

iTrader: (2)

I think I am going to throw my old, good Multecs in and see if that fixes the BLMs. That'll help eliminate the D3s if that's the case- or not!

Tootie Pang

iTrader: (2)

Threw in the Multecs. BLMs low-normal now instead of pegged 160. Car drives much better except for high load miss. I will check my iridiums for rich fouling.

Data file attached. I am in the camp that D3's are NOT drop-in compatible.

daferris

iTrader: (8)

I am using the 24# Bosch III's in my car Yes you do have to play with the battery offset compensation table.


It did help a lot with mine. The Bosch III's open much faster than the Multec's and that is why it runs rich unless you make adjustments...


Attached is the sheet that Southbay sent me for the data on the 27# ones I got from them....


I did have to "wing" it a bit as the tables on this sheet and the tables in my EBL P4 do not match but it was a huge help.

Tootie Pang

iTrader: (2)

Yep. Hopefully they will accept my return. They are sold as OEM replacements and they are not.

ULTM8Z

Yeah try to get factory injectors and then the datasheet corresponding to that p/n. That will give best results.

Even if you need only 22 lb and find a 30lb factory injector, you can tune for it. I only need roughly 26 lb, but got 30 lb and it runs fantastically.

92GTA

iTrader: (11)

You guys are crazy. Tune for them. These are freakin light years better than the factory Multec injectors. Your engine will run smoother everywhere and with a tiny increase in power and fuel economy. I can't even begin to convey just how much better these atomize the fuel.

These are as "drop in" as you're ever going to find.

Tootie Pang

iTrader: (2)

This is my "enjoy the car" engine. Stock OEM 305 TPI. I prefer to keep it that way. So far I have been "under" the car far more than I've been "in" it. I just want to get it running right and then I can relax for a bit. Right now it's love and hate. The D3's caused another problem I did not need. Now that that is out of the way I can close in on the chronic, constant missing problem after warm up.

ULTM8Z

By "factory" I mean OEM Bosch III in the flow rate you need, as opposed to aftermarket modified Bosch-IIIs.

With all due respect, you probably need to read the thread more carefully before spouting off with insults...

southbay08

Hey Guys, I'm sure you all have this info but I thought I would post it anyway. If not, hope it helps


The ECM calculates the fuel injector pulse width on the assumption that it knows all about your engine... displacement, injector size, mass air fow, etc. It uses an equation that includes the terms:

..... x (BLM/128) x (INT/128).......

The BLM is the long term fuel correction. This is what is stored in the ECM in volatile memory. The INT is the short term fuel correction, and its not "stored". The ECM recalculates the short term correction for every cycle of the calculation - about 9 times per second. It is intentionally forcing the closed loop A/F ratio to swing back and forth between very slightly rich (14.65:1) and very slightly lean (14.75:1). It has to do that for the cats to work.... when its lean the cat stores the excess oxygen, when its rich the stored oxygen combines with the unburned hydrocarbons (HC) and carbon monoxide (CO).

If the ECM finds that the long term average of the INT's is adding fuel (over 128), it ratchets up the BLM's to try and get the average of the INT's back to 128. It stores those values in the volatile memory..... that's most of what the ECM "learns". If the BLM's are above 128, the ECM is responding to what it BELIEVES is a lean condition. IF the BLM's are below 128, its responding to what it BELIEVES is a rich condition.

The BLM's are developed during part throttle/part load conditions, when the ECM is operating in closed loop (O2's are being used to modify the fuel rate). They are not learned when you are running at WOT, so they are not an indication that the engine is leaning out at peak power output. They are used at WOT to calculate the fuel rate (but only if they are above 128). A BLM above 128 indicates that something in the fuel system is not responding the way the ECM thought it would.

For example, if your fuel pressure is too low, the injectors don't flow the amount of fuel the ECM is expecting, it runs lean, and the O2 feedback elevates the BLM's above 128. If you had a vacuum leak, same result. If you have an MAF sensor and its dirty and reporting less mass air flow than is actually entering the engine, its a lean condition. If you have a speed-density setup, and have modified the intake and exhaust to improve the engine's breathing, but have not had the programming modified with changes to the volumetric efficiency (VE) tables, it would run lean. These are all "TRUE" lean conditions.

But sometimes, the O2 sensors give the incorrect feedback, indicating a "FALSE" lean condition. The main examples of this would be 1) faulty O2 sensor(s), 2) misfires, 3) exhaust leaks before the O2 sensors. All of those trick the ECM into thinking the engine is running lean, and it adds a bunch of extra fuel, using the BLM's, that the engine does not need.

83 Gman

I have the #3 injectors also from SouthBay (22#) Could I use this info for mine? This is for the 19#.
6.4 V: 3.07851247
8.0 V: 1.85340073
9.6 V: 1.30766195
11.2 V: 0.99121428
12.8 V: 0.76537403
14.4 V: 0.60906068
15.0 V: 0.55248610*

Also what else would I have to do on the top of that screen to make it a correct install.

ULTM8Z

Hard to say... once an injector is modified it's not clear that the datasheet of the original injector still applies to the modified one.

Often times the supplier will have to retest and come up with data specific to the modified injector.

Like i said before, my original attempt at BoschIII with modified injectors... the vendor threw some datasheet over the wall at me and it didn't work at all.

southbay08

what do you mean by modified? What bosch lll's are modified? And to what?
I'm confused

ULTM8Z

Edit... double post

ULTM8Z

The ones i had gotten earlier on were originally 19 lb and were evidently modified to be 30lb by drilling the atomizer plate. They weren't South bay injectors....

Maybe yours are not modified in which case my comment wouldn't apply there...

southbay08

No that's ok. I misunderstood Sorry,, my bad
and no...we do not modify our bosch lll's

ULTM8Z

That's fine... no apology necessary... no offense was taken...

But I guess getting back to 83 Gman's question... If they're the correct values, my guess is you'll know it pretty quickly.

After having ditched those earlier modified Bosch-III's and getting the factory Fords, I recall when I started up the car with the factory Ford Bosch-III's and the correct offset values for that exact p/n, I knew immediately something was very different (and for the better) just after 10 seconds of starting it and having it idle.

From there it was pretty easy to get everything in line in terms of the fueling (not withstanding the unrelated PE drop out issue that RBob graciously helped me fix along the way).

southbay08

Just put this post on the other thread about the bosch lll's:
Want to say that I'm sorry that some of you are having difficulty with the bosch lll injectors. It's kind of upsetting to us as we've been selling these injectors for just about 10 years and we've sold well over 10,000 of them.. Our customers have been extremely happy with them. They never called to tell us that they needed a tune or that they're BLM's were too high after installing the injectors. We go by customer feedback. I hear your frustration however I do not have an answer for you....I wish I did. What's confusing to me is that after selling so many of these things throughout the years you would think that I would have heard something and that's why I'm at a loss, not to say that there may have been some issues however I was not aware of them. I spent hours on the phone yesterday trying to get some info for all of you. Spoke to a contact of ours from Ford who tried desperately to help me yet could not find any info. He told me to try calling Motorcraft which I did, they told me to call bosch which I did and spoke with someone in the Bosch technical support department. I asked them for the specs/voltage offsets for the injectors..they have them yet they told me that they couldn't release the info to me for proprietary reasons. They told me to call Ford Again so I spoke with someone in Michigan who could not help me. I'm not sure what the big secret is. I purchased a couple of new ones yesterday in hopes that the info will be inside the box...but something tells me that we couldn't be so lucky. We have been a sponsor on this forum for many years and it's very important to us that you are happy with our service and products. As always we will be here to help in anyway we can. I'll continue to research this issue in hopes that I can come up with some info that will be helpful to you.
__________________

Tootie Pang

iTrader: (2)

You guys are excellent to deal with. IMHO, having a vendor that is so customer focused especially with this sort of perpetual confusion is really helpful to resolving this.

My 2¢:

1. This shouldn't be rocket science. An injector is just a solenoid valve with fuel pressure behind it. These things can and should be measured to eliminate any uncertainty. I have seen flow results tables that show the -771s are actually 17 lbs at 43.5 psi. Going to 48 psi increases them to 17.4 lbs which starts the ECM off at an adjustment disadvantage and could explain high BLMs. Admittedly, I do not know the actual range of fuel adjustment that a BLM unit actually has, but when 160 is shown, it means the ECM cannot go further. Lastly, there is a lot of engineering behind injectors. It is entirely possible that the 19 lb rating is due to burn efficiency increases from the better atomization. Perhaps a more complete burn for a lower amount of fuel (17 lbs actual) effectively increases the injector "rating" to 19 lbs. But I have no evidence of this. In fact, 2. below, infers that this may not be the case. I simply want to raise awareness that injector flow rate equivalence may not be as simple as plug and play.

2. The BLM feedback tells us what the ECM is seeing, whether it is actually occurring, or not. High BLMs mean the ECM is lengthening the "open" duration of the injector pulse and letting more fuel in BECAUSE the ECM is SEEING a lean condition. In our TPI cars the ECMs rich/lean eyes are ONLY done through the driver side bank O2 sensor. For a properly running engine, BLMs are a very reliable way to tune-in the engine.

3. I suspect, but have absolutely zero proof, that a majority of the Bosch D3 orders going into stock 305 and 350 TPIs are to attempt to fix an engine running improperly. It is possible that the effect of installing the D3's offsets the actual problem (maybe sometimes even fixes the actual problem), but likely, with these engines at this age, the D3s are offsetting other problems but does add up to a better "running" engine. For example, if the timing gear set is sloppy and stem seals are leaky, the engine is taking in a strange mix of metered air, unmetered air, slacking valve timing, and oil. Leaning out the mixture may be just what the doctor order but again, I just don't know. In properly running engines, a single change, like an injector swap, will show the actual effect of the swap (high BLMs as discussed here). And perhaps this is where the awareness of the D3's impropriety is revealed.

4. Aside from myself being uncertain as to how responsive my stock TPI ECM and engine is to tweaking the fuel pressure to compensate for different injector rates, I am optimistic that I will be able to dial in the 22 lb, -700s, which, according to bench tests I have seen, actually flow 18.4 pounds at 43.5 psi fuel pressure. Crank that to 48 and I should get 19 lbs dead on. I will report back (I get to play with this this weekend).

Again, the support of a vendor, to the discussion and fact finding is very helpful to us all getting to the bottom of this "simple" concept.

Tootie Pang

iTrader: (2)

To start my feedback:

I am starting with a stock 1989 MAF LB9 with all stock, fresh components.

• Idle solid and smooth at 550 RPM
• Vacuum 17 psi idle, 0 psi at WOT, 5000 RPM
• Fuel pressures 37-45 psi in all operating conditions. 37 idle, 45 WOT, 5000 RPM
• Secondary air injection, EGR, PCV functioning properly
• New timing set, new stem seals, new Wells MAF, new everything. Yes, I am now broke.

1. With the -771 D3s the BLMs were pegged at 160.
   
2. Multecs swapped in (no other changes). BLMs went to 115. Indicating slightly rich but within adjustment range.
   
3. -700s going in with adjustable FPR. No other changes. Will report back.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

One thing to note, is that unless you are looking at the BLM information, you wouldn't know about the lower flow rate.

RBob.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Im interested in the fuel pressure change if a few psi and lower the int and blm. I think the only way for total correction will be with offsets.
I am working on a members 383 no data for the 32#hr injectors . The blm was 138 and I changed the offsets and it went to 120. The engine was clearly running rich bye plug inspection . Keep us posted how pressure effects the lean condition.a great psi flow rate calculator.
http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/minj.htm

ULTM8Z

I agree with Tootie Pang...

Which is why I opened the Bosch-III sticky thread saying that I'm not trying to slam anyone and that I still definitely recommend people to buy Bosch-III's for the performance benefits.

After all, I can see Southbay's perspective on this... crying out loud how would anyone know there's a problem unless the customers speak up about it!

Any rate, I'm not sure why this is coming to light now vs over the last 10 years, so I agree with Southbay that it is a little confusing. But for whatever reason, I guess the issue hasn't been documented and quantified until now.

As RBob alluded to, unless the injector causes an extreme operational problem that's noticeable from the driver's seat, you may not know there's an issue unless you can view data and know what it's telling you.

Nevertheless, there's definitely hard data now to support the fact that there is a potential issue with these swaps.

Too bad Bosch is being so tight-lipped with their data... That would have been a tremendous resource to have all that data available. Sometimes we get lucky and find it on the net... (which is how I decided on those OEM Fords... after scouring ebay and looking to see which injector p/n's had data available).

Any rate, Southbay, don't feel too bad... in reality we applaud your efforts to work with the rest of us on trying to resolve the issue.