Its not a perfect diagnostic test by any stretch of the imagination, but if it does act up when taped on it is 100% bad.

 

Of course we read the plugs! It goes together. AFR, plugs, dyno session.. At some point though, you have to trust your instruments.

 

In my experience a wideband gets relied on too heavily on and probably the single easiest way to get yourself into a point where pistons turn to aluminum dust.

 

SbFormula:
I did not use a screw driver thought, I think it was a small wrench, so maybe I should try with a screwdriver!

FAST355:
Its not a perfect diagnostic test by any stretch of the imagination, but if it does act up when taped on it is 100% bad.

I was being sarcastic. Man these threads get so serious and sometimes dramatic.

 

I very much appreciate the help. I would like to enable highway mode if I can eventually because I am daily driving the car back and forth to college (Harrisburg PA to State College PA) and the fuel economy bump would really help. My heads are iron (Double hump 370 casting for a 1969 Z28 over the counter replacement head), so I don't know if that changes things or not. I am an engineering student so I tend to try and figure things out myself, and a helping hand never hurts.

 

Sure thing. Send me your log with the new tune whenever. We'll have a look at it.

 

Okay so I did a datalog with the new tune. There's a big dead spot of idling in the middle while I was waiting for a passenger too. It looks so much better and throttle response is way better than it was before.

 

Good to hear
I’ll look at it when I get a chance
Happy New year

 

okay!

Much much better!!!!!

Few things:
Knock detected on kick down at beginning of WOT. No other knock otherwise. Again appears to be noise from downshifting.
I see highway mode is enabled. Cool!
I tweaked your MAF tables to enrich idle and lean out a bit from 10-55g/sec.
Error #32 still there
Injector Final PW DC% reaching a bit over 80% in mid 4K rpm. You are getting maxed-out.
Engine temperature was really good and stable. UPDATE: I noticed your average was 172°F. it seems low for a 180°F stat. Even idling you barely reach 180°F. Your fans never kicked in. Are you sure you have a 180°F stat?

If you could attach the .BIN your are running right now, I will upload the changes to MAF tables and not touch anything else you have done.

 

Here's an Excel spreadsheet to help adjust your MAF tables.

 

Okay now that we have some fueling tuned, I'd like play with the timing on the next iteration as well. It seems like I have mostly stock curve and wabt t9 play around with a performance curve. Any tips on where to start? Not gonna get rid of the downshift knock so I think it can be turned up a bit.

 

Great to see your MAF tuning is coming around. Remember that if you use a different gasoline, you could throw off your tuning. Ethanol can be a b****. If you tuned with ethanol blend and you end up without ethanol, you will get rich. If you tuned with non ethanol and get ethanol blend, you will get lean.

Regarding your thermostat, you might want to datalog a cold start, drive around and see how the CT graph looks like. Check this thread, you'll see what I mean. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/cool...tested-ok.html

Tuning timing is another beast all together. There is the tuning itself and there is the "what timing does the engine want?". For the tuning, all kinds of parameters interact together to produce a commended Total SA (Initial SA + ecm SA). You'll have to learn how it works. Just remember, what you see on the datalog (total SA - KR) might not be what is actually happening (reading at the balancer). This is due to inaccurate SA Latency tuning from GM. Please read this entire thread: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...ncy-table.html

For what the engine wants, good luck with that one. For cruising, idle and part throttle, you'll have to do your own research and see what others suggest. You might be surprised on the different opinions. For WOT, you absolutely need a dyno session where you adjust fuel and timing to produce best power. Again, some might tell you otherwise. Timing won't make much difference at the wheel if you are already in the ball park. You would have to be quite low SA to notice lack of performance (see post #46). On my Firebird 383 FIRST TPI, 28* max instead of 30* shaved 4-5 hp at wheel. 30* to 32* barely gain 2hp at wheel. That's just and example. On my Camaro 89 bone stock, playing with timing did not yield much performance gain on 0-60mph and rolling 1/4 mile run. I tried between ave 20* to 30* on WOT runs and it did not make much difference as the knock control would just kick in more often. I have bad quality 91 octane gasoline in my neck of the woods. What really made a difference was adjusting factory AFR from too rich (low 10s, high 9s) to 12.5:1. Gain 0.3sec on 0-60mph and 2 mph on 1/4 mile.

For your knock (KR), there is a way to reduce the effect of your false knock by changing a few things. PLEASE search TGO as there is lots of info on it.

Knock Attack rate
400rpm = 0.16
1200rpm = 0.18
2000rpm = 0.25
3200rpm = 0.25
4800 rpm = 0.25
That will diminish the amount of KR on your downshift. That's an example of what I use. You can experiment. The higher the number the more KR you will get.

Your Knock Recovery Rate vs RPM (%/200ms) is not bad
400rpm = 7.81
1200rpm = 7.81
2000rpm = 10.16
3200rpm = 12.11
4800 rpm = 12.11
Over 3200rpm (where downshift happens), you will recover around 60%/sec (gross ave calculation). So, for example, if you get 8.5* of KR, you will recover in about 5 secs (your log shows 5.3sec), but you will recover more than 50% in the first sec. The bigger the number the faster the recovery. If you double the 12.11 to 24.22, you will get full recovery under a sec. The catch 22 on this if if you get real knock, too fast of a recovery will generate more knock and render the system somewhat ineffective.

You can also cap KR.
I have mine capped at 6* of KR in PE for all RPM.
Yours is:
800rpm = 13.54
1600rpm = 15.82
2400rpm = 15.12
3200rpm = 15.12
4000rpm = 16.53
4800rpm = 14.77
5600rpm = 15.82
6400rpm = 15.82

Voila!

 

Forgot this.

I have corrected your MAF tables based on your last run at post #57

 

I've been playing with the timing and I'm starting to really get the car to feel better, but I ran across something interesting on the Gearhead EFI forums. There's a 6E "extra spark" XDF file that goes out to 6400rpm instead of 4800 and it got me wondering if I could edit the xdf to give myself more resolution in some of the tables like the power enrichment spark advance and the regular spark tables, which leave a lot to be desired and are difficult to get smooth unless you basically disable power enrichment spark adder and up the enrichment at temperature rather than the bulk of changes coming from enrichment vs rpm. More resolution could definitely help but with file size limitations I don't know how much I can increase it or if I can at all with the stock computer actually recognizing what I'm doing.

 

Never heard of that XDF.
What I am thinking is an XDF can only be as good as the mask it displays. If the .BIN does not support pass 4800rpm, you won’t get more resolution. ECM will use the 4800rpm data pass 4800rpm. The XDF cannot change that.

 

Gearhead efi has the wideband extended timing binary and adx/xdf
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...Information-6E

 

Well there you go! I'm going to check that out. Thanks!

 

That's what I was thinking of, yes. Okay. I don't have a wideband so I shouldn't use that I guess. I've developed an excel tool for quickly editing the spark map based around smoothing the spark curve based on power enrichment mode. It's a little rudimentary, needing two instances of TunerPro open, but it takes the base spark map and the power enrichment spark adder, interpolating as the ECU would to spit out a visualized map that includes power enrichment mode. You can then edit that instead of just the base map for smoothness and values, pop it into the spreadsheet, and it'll calculate the difference between the initial PE visualized map and the new one, applying those differences to the base map for use. It takes a lot of trial and error out of smoothing the WOT spark curve.

I'll upload the initial version here for critique if anyone want to take a look along with the next tune I plan on loading for testing. Keep in mind all of my knowledge at this point has come from this thread, a few messages, and a bunch of research through this DIY PROM section and the Gearhead forums. I think considering I don't have a wideband or a dyno, I'm really starting to understand and the car feels like it has vastly improved over the original tune. I'm finally getting it dialed for this engine paired with these injectors. Leaning it out under power enrichment has lowered the duty cycle on my 24# injectors and I may not need to increase size after all. Jury is still out on that one though.

I can't thank @SbFormula and @Tuned Performance enough for all your help with improving my understanding and ability on the tuning front. Everything I've done prior to TPI has been carbureted, so it has been a huge learning experience. It's so much fun and I have so much left to learn on the subject.

 

The wideband bin can incorporate data into D8 of the ecm 0-5v . I think the extended timing has this and is just a display for dash and histogram if you do incorporate. Still runs off narrow band. There is that bin on tgo arapwb for automatic as a starter but would need to compare current bin and modify. I’m not sure if that’s the same bin on gearhead with extended timing or not.

 

Well, I'm glad things are working out for you. TGO is an awesome community!

BTW, I did get rid of PE SA in my tunes by zeroing them out (MAF and SD). I have SA timing table tuned without it. It works fine. I also have a database Excel where all SA data is entered so it can emulate the ECM SA calculation based on parameters including the CT SA correction. It makes tuning way way easier. It generates a chart so I can see different scenario SA at WOT depending on CT. That's what it looks like. Those are for my stock Camaro at 176°F.

 

That looks incredibly useful. I was toying around with the idea of eliminating PE SA but I think without the added fuel in PE, if I gave it that much extra spark at higher loads it would be unhappy. I might play around with it but as a daily driver I do want as much longevity out of the motor as possible.

 

Here's yours base on your last Tune you attached at post #68

I don't have your WOT & Idle LV8 profile based on RPM. You should extract your LV8 vs RPM for WOT & Idle. That will give you a profile in the table. For WOT, it is not a straight line unless you are over 208 all the way, which I doubt.

 

If you map out your table correctly, you'll never be at higher load in the SA table without PE. That's how I tune.
Set your TPS PE RPM threshold at 50% all the way. On my stock IROC-Z, it works way better. On my 383 stroker I have it at 30% lol. Better be rich than lean!!!!
Yours is at 70% right now.

Like I said at post #78, find your WOT LV8 profile and map out your SA table accordingly.

 

How do I find my LV8 vs RPM table? In datalogging I'm at an LV8 over 208 the entire time I'm at WOT. Maximum of 243 at 3300rpm WOT on my latest datalog. I think I would need your spreadsheet to figure it out perfectly.

 

It’s not a table, it’s just something you extract from a data log on a WOT pass. You look at the LV8 numbers vs RPM so you can see the profile. If you are over 208 the whole time, it means at WOT, your SA is a straight line from top to bottom in column 208.

When I looked at your posted data logs, you were not over 208 the whole time.

UPDATE: Looking at your newer data log, you are over 208 on WOT but you are not exceeding 4600rpm on your pass. You get around LV8 226 at 4500 rpm. I expect it to go under 208 pass 5000 rpm since it's a TPI. So in your table you will get something like this at CT 180°F:




I would zero out PE SA adder and tune SA table for WOT using the profile you come up with. The SA WOT profile is the pink colored area. This one is an estimation since I don't have your data pass 4500 rpm. So do a couple of good WOT passes and extract the LV8 vs RPM from data logs. That will tell you where you're at in the SA table.

BTW, the LV8 represents your torque curve

 

Suggestion. Get your WOT SA in the ball park of 30-34* max. When you get a chance, get a dyno session and dial it in. Getting rid of PE SA adder makes tuning easier. 37* seems a bit excessive, but again, it's what the engine wants, not what we think it wants.

 

And also...

Change your BLM Cell Airflow Boundary #3 from 125 to 160. That will be more inline with your engine profile. It will isolate WOT-PE in cell #14-15

 

Just an observation:

In your tune you have Minimum Temp to Use Hot Coolant PE %TPS set at 19.4°F, which means ecm will use Enable %TPS vs RPM when High CT table for PE engagement most of the time. That means every time you will be over 2000 rpm with LV8 over 128, it will only take 14.8% TPS to engage PE (according to your tune). You might end-up burning a lot of gas lol.

Best strategy is to not use that high CT parameter and tune PE Enable %TPS vs RPM accordingly.

See post #73

 

Got it. My goal for WOT SA total was 35* and judging by my latest datalog which was pulling timing down to 35.61* at WOT with the knock retard, it'll be happy at 34-35 if I can get it there. I don't see why it would be going up to 37+ though as on the test I had the table at 35-34 up top and zero on the PE advance. Where are the other advances and would it be worth my time to go turn them off so I can more accurately guess my SA from the base SA table? It does seem to be advancing more than I would like it to by quite a few degrees. My shift points are at 5000rpm as well, so it doesn't go above that unless I am using the shifter to hold the gear longer. My cam specs end at 5500 (COMP 8-502-8) and CamQuest 6 was giving me numbers that would read peak horsepower of 403 at about 4700rpm. I adjusted the governor when I did the probuilt automatics shift kit. Maybe I should go back and switch it out to 5500 with a B&M kit... But that's for a later date.

Ill upload the latest datalog here, please ignore the atrocious commanded AFR, I ****ed that up and have since remedied the tune. Made the mistake of taking advice on another thread and targeted 12.5:1, but the computer for some reason decided it was going to target 13.5:1 instead under PE.

 

OK lots to digest here:

"Where are the other advances and would it be worth my time to go turn them off so I can more accurately guess my SA from the base SA table?
Yep in Coolant SA correction table. You have some degrees there at:
176°F. ------ LV8 144 & 160
198°F. ------ LV8 160
I would zero that out. Makes absolutely no sense, but it's what GM did.

My shift points are at 5000rpm as well, so it doesn't go above that unless I am using the shifter to hold the gear longer. My cam specs end at 5500 (COMP 8-502-8) and CamQuest 6 was giving me numbers that would read peak horsepower of 403 at about 4700rpm. I adjusted the governor when I did the probuilt automatics shift kit. Maybe I should go back and switch it out to 5500 with a B&M kit... But that's for a later date.
I am no expert, but your shift points have to be adjusted base on your HP curve and tranny ratio. Only a dyno session will tell your HP curve. It's all about shifting at a certain RPM and dropping to another for maximizing the "area under the curve" Here's an example with a stock LB9 5 speed. I know it looks weird but it works.




Ill upload the latest datalog here, please ignore the atrocious commanded AFR, I ****ed that up and have since remedied the tune. Made the mistake of taking advice on another thread and targeted 12.5:1, but the computer for some reason decided it was going to target 13.5:1 instead under PE.
Computer has no clue what's going on at start-up, open loop, highway mode and PE. Only in closed loop the ecm targets the O2 windows (not necessary 14.7:1). INT/BLM are there to bring the O2 voltage windows within targets. So how do you tune open loop, HWY mode & PE? AFR gauge, lol

Commanded open loop AFR is a bit complex calculation. And no matter what the ecm calculates, it does not mean you are getting that AFR ratio in realty. Example: ecm commands 11.7:1 and you get 12.7:1. If you search TGO, @RBob has laid out the equation. I can't explain it here, too complicated. It's all programmed in my database and the calculation is done by Excel.

Commanded PE AFR is less complex calculation. Again it's laid out somewhere in a thread on TGO. I think it goes something like this:
PE AFR = Commanded AFR / (1 + %Change vs Cool/100 + %Change vs RPM/100)
For the selected RPM, suppose the percent change to Fuel/Air Ratio from the table is = 3.9 and the percent change to Fuel/Air Ratio from the CT table at the selected coolant temperature is = 18.0,
If commanded AFR is 14.7,
then the approximate PE AFR would be: 14.7 / (1+0.18+0.039) = 12.06:1 AFR

HWY AFR is dictated by a table.

AGAIN: what ever AFR the ecm calculates, whether in OL, HWY mode, PE, DOES NOT mean you will get that in reality. And on top, depending on engine temp, air characteristic & quality of gas, real AFR will change for same given commanded AFR.

Did I say AFR gauge many times? Oh yes, but of course, they are not reliable bla bla bla ... right?

My AFR gauge is my most used gauge of all. I have gauges for: CT (2X), oil pressure, voltage, fuel pressure, vacuum, intake temp and outside temp.

 

From post#62 "Just remember, what you see on the datalog (total SA - KR) might not be what is actually happening (reading at the balancer). This is due to inaccurate SA Latency tuning from GM. Please read this entire thread: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...ncy-table.html "

Now that you are serious about tuning SA, do yourself a favor and read the above thread.

What kind of HEI distributor do you have?

Here's what I suggest if you have a latest OEM HEI distributor with OEM ICM. Modify your SA latency correction table with this:

 

RE post #78.

After reviewing your last log... YEP you are definitely entering PE at light load (just over 128 LV8 and 24% TPS). Not good for gas milage!!!!

 

Here's your MAF tables fine tuned. And I corrected your Minimum Temp to Use Hot Coolant PE %TPS to 235Deg.F and also your BLM boundary

 

Excellent thank you. After incorporating this fueling with my latest timing table, the car feels so much better. The power enrichment mode change has most likely made the most difference. I'm no longer bogging at low-mid throttle and I had a phantom rattle that has just vanished in that rpm range. It feels so smooth now and pulls hard at WOT. I think in order to refine it any further than this safely I will definitely need a dyno session and a wideband sensor.

 

Well my dearest TGO friend. That should conclude this thread. Glad it's working out for you. Keep searching TGO, you'll find lots of info.
PM me if you have any questions

 

I came across a website that has them now, Boostednw.com, looks to be having similar adapters that moates used to sell, THE G1, G2, HDR1 Etc, are all there now with their own names GM1, GM2, and MCA1 respectively

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12202987242...mis&media=COPY

they have a piggyback adapter or it’s easy to solder in a dip socket and burn directly to eeprom after removing the uv chip.

 

I got mine from BoostedNW.com Same exact thing as the Moates HDR1, got here in 2 days

 

Looks like they also have the equivalent of the Moates GM1 Adapter so you can run the Flash EEPROM in the ECM


https://boostednw.com/chips-and-adpt...?product_id=97

 

You came across a website that has them know? Self promotion Jaime? You are the owner and run the site Boosted. You basically are self advertising and not being honost to your potential customers. Let alone, you don't even own a 3rd gen. That's dishonesty.

 

Time to close this thread?