I was wondering if its possible to run a Mechanical advance distributor on a TPI Car? i know the computer is made to advance the timing ect. but i doubt its possible to change it out if im not mistaken the fuel air ect. is calculated also with the rate of advance in timing.

 

You are correct in your thinking. I can answer you in one word though: MegaSquirt.

 

i was thinking about getting that for my other car. but id probably not like the tuning part of it, too many calculations ect.

 

Calculations? What calculations? It is only as hard as you make it. The msefi boards have grownn large enough that you can simply borrow another tune untill you develop yours. It is the same amount of work as timing an engine is. Increase or decrease a variable.

 

do you calculate the rate of increas yourself or do you change only plot points on the rpm range? is that how it works? what about fuel settings ect.? plus i forgot how much it was. and that would replace my stock computer setup wouldnt it?

 

You need an electronic Dist with TPI or megasquirt!!!!
The Dist "tells" the computer how fast the engine is spinning. Without this RPM info, the computer can't fire the fuel injectors.

 

hmmmmmmmm

 

You're wrong. You're all wrong, lol
The ecm uses the MAP sensor to measure engine vacuum. Using that signal it can make a 3d surface plot of advance for engine vacuum vs RPM. This is completely adjustable for every f-body ecm, check out the diy_eprom board and better yet, read the beginners guides to burning your own chips.
Fuel and spark both use the MAP sensor but they are completely seperate from each-other. The MAF sensor uses the MAF as it's load variable, this is very similar to what MAP does only it's more direct and adaptable. So in the MAF code it uses Lv8 (load derived from MAF) vs RPM to come up with a "mechanical dizzy slope".
In other words, everything for controlling the engine is in the chip. Set fuel pressure and base timing and everything else can be done through the chip tuning.
As for the mega-squirt. It WAS a nice project but now that the GM ecm's have been hacked so well it's rather pointless. I don't understand why anybody would want to go backwards with technology that is already so inexpensive. It's cheaper to tune a chip yourself than it is to buy one mail order or even the cost of a mechanical advance dizzy! $100-140 buys you everything you need. Why more people don't DIY is beyond me. It isn't rocket science, it works just like a vacuum advance dizzy only it's in software

 

Mega Squirt is able to use a Mechanical or Vacuum advance distributor. The ecm gets it's signal from the negative terminal on the coil.

"It WAS a nice project but now that the GM ecm's have been hacked so well it's rather pointless. I don't understand why anybody would want to go backwards with technology that is already so inexpensive. It's cheaper to tune a chip yourself than it is to buy one mail order or even the cost of a mechanical advance dizzy! $100-140 buys you everything you need. Why more people don't DIY is beyond me. It isn't rocket science, it works just like a vacuum advance dizzy only it's in software"

Sounds like the information you have on Mega Squirt is grossly out of date. Mega Squirt is better than GM for many reasons. Mega Squirt can have new code easily written for it, any function you want, you can write it. Last I heard the 730 ecm could not.

In the V1.000 code, a low and hi rpm set by the user (alpha_lorpm and alpha_hirpm), you can have:

1) pure Alpha-N,
2) pure Speed-Density,
("specific" cases of the blended code), or
3) a blended Alpha-N / Speed-Density fuel curve (and ignition curve!) that goes from pure Alpha-N to pure Speed-density between the two rpms in a linear fashion. And if that's not fancy enough, you could use a non-linear algorithm easily in a few lines of the code to do so. Just kidding - I'm doubting anybody would bother tuning that, but since this is an open project WE can do it if we want!

I'm just wondering - do ANY of the aftermarket EFI computers allow a blended algorithm? Mega Squirt offers "improved transient fueling". That probably has to do with TPSDOT and MAPDOT stuff though.

I am able to say my car's EFI has something in common with the Ferarri F40 - dual mode fueling algorithms .

The MSII and Ultra Mega Squirt have 100% overhead, does fast or Holley? The baud rate of Mega Squirt, MSII and UMS are many times faster than GM. They do this by taking advantage of Motorola's "Cold Fire Processor." This means I can take my car out and do a 0-60 or whatever and get a plot for every .01-.001 seconds. Rather than GM's 2 per second or so.

UMS also allows you to tune your car with dual wideband O2 sensors. Try doing that in the GM computer.

Remember the phrase "Don't knock it until you have tried it?" I tried GM. I have used it succesfully too. It is great and people have proved that with their cars. But there are better and newer ecms and software out there.

I can go on but that should suffice.

 

I think you missed my point. I was talking about removing the electronic dizzy, not that Megasquirt was inferior to GM stuff! He's talking about go back 20 years and installing a vacuum advance dizzy.... I say that's the wrong way.
As for the Megasquirt's usefulness, this should be in another thread but let me ask you this. Do you think that a relatively mild TPI setup is going to fun better and be tuned faster with the Megasquirt (even with it's wideband inputs) or a computer that came with that engine .
I'd say the only thing the Megasquirt has over GM as of right now is it's flexability. If I had an odd engine and wanted EFI I'd have 2 fully built Megasquirts myself, for GM engines, I'll stick with GM computers because they're dime a dozen. I just broke one of my ecms and went out and grabed 2 for $40, hard to beat that for a complete fuel and spark control computer .
My only other beef with the Megasquirt was the small fuel and spark tables. I had looked into it 2 years ago for tuning a Honda F4i and we NEED at least 16x16. I can't begin to explain how important it was for us to have that granularity.
One thing that's impressed me is it's progressiveness. It looks like there are some solid add-ons for it and lots of support (just like linux when it was a few years old). This is good stuff but here's one last question for you. Can your Megasquirt control an electronic trans because GM's had that for almost 10 years now .
Oh, and you missed something about the source code for the p4's (749 and 730 etc.) It's called $60 code. It's source code mostly for boosted engines so there, it's source code . I do like a lot of the features that the Megasquirt offers but I find the GM stuff to already have most if not all of those features.
As for the Alpha-n stuff and blending, have you ever tuned an alpha-n car? I've tuned 2, a v8 and a 600cc 14000rpm inline 4, it's tuff! I can tell you know that NO engine running TPI is going to want to run in alpha-n if they don't have too. Even with that said theres a member here that's been running a 165 ($6E) without a maf without any troubles. GM seems to have their stuff in order when it comes to working with their own engines .

 

Again, your information is dated. I would really appreciate it if you did some more research on Mega Squirt and it's systems before you say all of this as fact.

 

How much is the MS, i looked into it a few years ago but it never caught my attention.

 

Mega Squirt can be had for around $100 depending on where you purchase the supplies from and shipping and if you get the display, relay board etc,.

MSII will be a tiny bit more expensive and UMS is supposed to be in the $200 range.

Mega Squirt has grown enough to have many different set-ups avalible. Many people including myself have posted their runtime parameters. So if you were firing it up for the first time you can download someone else's setings and get started that way. I started out with the settings from a 400 sbc with edelbrock heads and carburated air gap gone FI. Worked fine and I did not have much tuning left to do.

From my experience on the boards I have found that most people are secretive about their tables. Ususlly if you ask for a person's tables they will tell you to learn how to do it yourself. Which makes it harder to get started if you have just put your new engine in. I view that as a problem for beginners, and I think the board here might suffer from it also.

 

So where is my information out-dated? I picked all of it directly from the "official" website
Okay, you win, the Megasquirt is better for this guy, lol.
Tell me where my research is wrong, everything I posted came straight from the official website and forum.
As for the wideband stuff, why don't you read what I was telling you and not what you think I was telling you. I never said tuning with a wideband wasn't worth something but guess what, it doesn't take a SUPER DUBER ULTRA FAST datalogger to tune a GM ecm with a wideband. If that's what it takes to get the megasquirt running then I pitty you.
The wideband is an invaluable tool and it CAN easily be datalogged at every 0.1 second with every P4 TPI computer , how about you do a little more research first.
Oh, one last little tid bit of information, it only costs $175 for the Prominator which gets rid of the chip burning equipment .
One more thing, I have a problem with you thinking that the DIY eprom board should be giving out fuel and spark tables to all the new guys. That's just stupid. I wouldn't expect my professors to give me all the answers and I sure as hell wouldn't EXPECT the research professors to give me all of there findings for free.
The idea is DIY, as in DO IT YOURSELF. Being given everything is only handicapping the person in the long run. Now if you are actually actively tuning somebody's car hands on and you know what you're doing then it's okay. But the whole "give me a fuel map for this motor" is a terrible attitude to the DIY community.

 

I spent my entire last three posts pointing out where your data was out dated. If you got it from the websites and groups than you should know most of what I know, but you did not as I pointed out.

Making everyone figure out everything for themselves is good, it makes sure that if you are doing it then you know what you are doing. But it does hinder growth of the field. It is not comparable to giving out the answers, it is comparable to giving out a study guide, a sylabus or an outline. A platform to mold your own out of. There is more abuse that way, but it opens more minds up for new findings.

You don't expect the researchers to give out findings for free. That is what Al Grippo and Bruce Bowling along with every other Mega Squirter do every day. They (we) do not expect more than knowing we have helped someone, and they will continue to learn. If you are going to go to all of the trouble of buying the accessories to burn a chip, chances are you will make the most of your investment by continuing your tuning efforts.

I said the part of MS having a faster baud rate to point out that it could make MS easier to tune than a GM. I even tuned my Mega Squirt without an O2 sensor at first. I really only rely on it now for part throttle cruising. MS or the people that use MS do not need a wideband, it is a helpful tool, as you said, to make things easier. Much like using someone else's settings as a platform to build off of.

I am sorry this is angering you soo much but the use of negative tones, rolling eyes, bold letters and colorful words won't make your point any better. We have a difference of opinion, but both things will achieve the same results in the long run.

 

You're right, I was wrong for getting a little angry but please PLEASE tell me where I posted out dated information regarding the MS and it's derivatives.
You make it out like I haven't been following the MS project. I've been looking and watching for years now.
Read what he's been saying and you'll see why I think the GM electronics are where he should start. The MegaSquirt is for more advanced tuners and people with different engines. Oh, and no TPI should be run on the street with alpha-n, there is no way of measuring load so you'll have to either run it lean or rich at WOT. Trust me, alpha-n should never be used when you have a good MAP signal, it's just a waste of gas and spark plugs.
I can't see why you're pushing this MS on this poor guy. From his replies he's 100x better off working with what he already has. For $250 (prominator and moates adaptor, ebay max cable interface for datalogging) he'd be all ready to start getting into the tuning underground
Eventually I want to get a MS and am thinking about it for our FSAE team.
Remember, the orignal purpose of the ecm was because the GM stuff was still not sourced. Now that it is, guys can right any kind of code they want. The MS still has an advantage now with it's faster clock speed and large 4k ram (MSII). The original 512k is the same size as the GM p4's and even GM's stuff has room for upgrading the RAM size, the location is on the board just waiting for some lovin' .
Again, sorry for my negative tones but I don't appreciate being told I don't know what I'm talking about when the opposite is true.

 

I totaly agree with your last post. GM would be better for him to start with if wants to start. MS is not for a begginer. It involves assembly of the ecm, parts selection, re-wiring and at least as much engine theory as GM.

My only other beef with the Megasquirt was the small fuel and spark tables.----MSII and UMS have 16x16 and 32x32.

It WAS a nice project-----It still is.

Can your Megasquirt control an electronic trans----Yes they all can.

The wideband is an invaluable tool and it CAN easily be datalogged at every 0.1 second with every P4 TPI computer ----You do not need to go out and buy a WBO2 meter because UMS has one built in. GM does not.

GM computers because they're dime a dozen. I just broke one of my ecms and went out and grabed 2 for $40, hard to beat that for a complete fuel and spark control computer . ---
it only costs $175 for the Prominator which gets rid of the chip burning equipment -----$100-140 buys you everything you need.----There is a conflict there. $175+$40=$215. MS can still be had with around $100.

for tuning a Honda F4i ---H**da, isnt that a bad word?

 

where can i get the tuning equipment for gm computers?

 

Everything you need for tuning a p4 ecm depends on how much you want to spend.
This is where Tido thinks I'm posting conflicting info , when I'm not, there are like 100 combos on how to tune a GM computer.
I've limited them down to my favorite as it stands right now;

Option 1: Craig Moates (moates.net) get the Burn1, a couple AT29c256 chips, and his G1 memcal adaptor. Priced including shipping will be $140. Keep in mind this doesn't include the datalogging cable which you can grab off of ebay for like $40 shipped. So for everything you're looking at $180 shipped, that's all the hardware you need to scan, datalog, edit, read, burn. You only get about 10,000 burns with that flash prom though so pace yourself

Option 2: Prominator (speedtronics.net) get the basic version for $175 and he also sells the adaptor (craigs adaptor) for $35 so it's a bit more expensive but you'll never need to worry about chips and burning software. This hardware replaces the burner and the flash prom with a stand alone unit JUST like the MS project. Again, add or build your own scanning cable hookup and you're rocking everything you'd ever need.

Option 3: Autoprom (moates.net) expensive at $325 but that thing includes EVERYTHING YOU COULD EVERY WANT OR NEED . Very cool product that has the scanning hardware, a burner, and an emulator all in either serial or usb versions. This is the ultimate tuning tool that has good resalve value for when you're all done tuning your car .

Then there's the software. I reommend TunerPro, it's free . TunerCat has a few more bells and whisles but I think it's a tad expensive for all of these OBD1 stuff. Although if you plan on burning a few 94 and 95 LT1's you can use your scanning hardware and TunerCat to flash them! Just a side thought but it'll be like $100 in software .

 

Tibo, you yourself are talking about 3 different things here. The MegaSquirt is not the same as the MSII which isn't the same as the UMS, plus add-ons etc. When it's all said and done you're not saving any money.
As for the wideband o2 controller being built into the UMS, can you show me where this is? I couldn't find it. Oh, and it's not a meter, it's a controller , just pulling your chain.
I also haven't seen anybody or anywhere talk about controlling the e-transmissions. I'll look again but I'm turning up empty. I don't doubt it, I'd just like to see more than 1 guy do it because that's not much of a sounding board for help...
I must say, after all this I've come to the conclusion that the UMS and MSII are indeed nice options, I will however stand by my comment about how the MS WAS a nice project. The MSII and UMS are far better options.
The reason I was looking into the UMS a couple months ago was for the ability to run the f*rd edis with relative ease. I'm not an EE so it takes me months to understand this stuff where it would probably only take some guys a few days to come up with a working circuit .

 

Because MegaSquirt is an educational project, we hope that you will learn something. Just as important, we hope you will share what you learn with the group, so we can all learn. In order to do that, you need to understand the current state of the MegaSquirt, and this can only be had by reading the docs and these forums.


Read this about transmission controlling: http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t...ighlight=4l60e

And this: http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t...ighlight=4l60e

Then this: http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t...ighlight=4l60e

For wide band read this: http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t...highlight=band

This is good too: http://www.megasquirt.info/UMS.htm


I forgot to mention it earlier also that UMS can also control wastegate and Nitrous applications.

 

I found where it has the wideband built on board, that's awesome.
<-- still doesn't like MS vs a GM p4 ecm
<-- wants to build 3 UMS's when they come out. One for my team, one for the car, one for backup and bench.
So again, the original MS is not worth the $100 for the original poster. He's far better off without having to deal with the headaches and down time, just get craig's adaptor with a zif socket and burn1 if he's cheap, a prominator if he's smart .
That UMS is going to be my toy, b-day present. That computer has so much overhead that I'll write the code in a high level object oriented language. This will be very awesome... when it comes out and if the price is resonable.

 

Thank-you for reading them. I am glad you are considering this.

 

lol, I knew your were biased
Seriously though, the original MS is rather weak compared to the GM stuff wouldn't you agree? I especially didn't like how they had the 8x8 load tables for fuel.

 

Yes, a larger VE table would be more usefull. It would mainly be for improved streetability though. It has been proved by many people that good power can be had with the reltivly small VE table. When composing a VE table the goal is to make it as smooth as possible while still fullfilling practicality as much as possible. So if smooth is the name of the game (for Wide open power) then a series of 8 linear points can yield close to the same results as a series of 10-60 points.

More points can give a few more horsepower and better gas mileage. But remember that people have tuned carburated cars for decades with geat results and not been dead on like FI can be. It will be interesting for me to see if I notice a difference in a VE enlargement from MSII or UMS when under wide open throttle. I will have to tell you my findings.

 

GM also offers a space to mount their ecm's to. I have to make my own. Bummer.