HELP I am in real trouble my car is acting up and will not start, well sometimes that is.PLease its long but i need help $50 bucks to the man with the answer!
First off it’s a 1990 Iroc 5.7L TPI, and as long as I have owned it (about 1 year 8 months now) randomly when I go to start the car it does not start. When I say it does not start I mean everything is normal that I can tell and by that I mean that I have tested everything on the car had three shops check everything out and nothing can be found.
I put the key in, I get power my volt gauge shows 11+ volts every time all lights turn on I hear the fuel system pressurizing itself and I turn the key all the way and nothing, the starter does not turn at all the car make no attempt to start itself no matter how many times I try, to make all my experiences short the only way it will start again is with time. By that I mean I just have to leave the car alone for about an hour and then bam stick the key in and first try is starts up and runs strong, and she does run strong . When I first got the car it only did it about once every month or two, but within the past three months or so it has gotten very bad and now it happens almost every time I drive the car but it happens so randomly there is no way to predict when it wont start again.
Sense I bought the car I have put a lot of work into it because I really do love it, she is my third f body and my favorite of the three, sense I have owned the car I have had quite a bit of work done to it all in shops which is all listed below. But more to the point the exact time I can say the problem got worse is about four months ago when I had the car put in a shop because it was starting ruff and the exhaust smelled like gas, ended up getting a fuel system cleaning, new fuel pump and my rear brakes done and ever sense then it has been getting worse and worse. Right after I got it back from the shop it started not starting again when it had been at least three months or so sense the last time. I ended up taking my car back to the shop about three times where the shop said the checked my starter, battery and various other parts and the batter was a bad battery, well I ended up going through three new batteries in a month of time everyone testing bad after a few days but the were kragin batteries and once I finally got once that tested good at a shop before I bought I have had the same good one for four months now with no problems that I can tell from the battery.
Well sense the problem kept going I ended up taking it to Lehr Electric in Sacramento, CA and these are the guys that have at least like 10 cop cars and 5regular customer cars at any given time the are the best around and they checked all the electrical which all came back normal the only thing the said was that the battery should be 315A but only holds 275A, but they said that was just the max for the battery the way it was made and it would be fine as long as I did not plan on upgrading to a large sound system or anything else that might cause more strain.
I am all out of ideas totally broke at the moment and I am afraid to drive me car anywhere, this problem seems to never happen at any certain time for any real reason the answer is always just waiting it out. The only even idea anyone has given me that it might be is one guy said my year of Camaro has a chip in the key and maybe mine has bad and not being read all the time at least to me it made some sense as when ever the car didn’t start it does nothing not even trying to start and when it does start again hours later it starts no problem an runs fine but I located my extra key to the car when two days ago when this happened last neither key did anything and I am all out of ideas. Please any ideas I need any and all ASAP I cant get to work without my car but I am afraid to drive it what could it be that would let me come back and start it later please anyone help !!!!!

 

You may have a VATS problem. read this tech article and search foe VATS it is talked about a lot on here. VATS is the system that uses the chip in the key.

https://www.thirdgen.org/vats

 

+ 1 on the vats issue.
Perform the vats bypass

It is not usually the key that goes bad, rather the wires rub though on the colum or the contacts in the key tumbler get worn.

 

Wish you hadn't said that now we might have to split 50 bux

 

Heat soaked starter? Leaking fuel injectors?

 

im thinking heat soak... if you leave it overnight does it start up everytime?

 

As the guys already asked here: does the no-start condition appear only when the car is warm/hot? And when it cools down, it starts again? That would be heatsoak.

You can easily rule out the starter by putting the front of the car on jackstands and putting a voltmeter (or even a test light) on the purple wire on the starter. Turn the key to Start and if the light lights up (or voltmeter reads 12V) and the starter does NOT crank, the fault is in the starter solenoid. And if you don't see any voltage or light, it could be VATS.

Let us know.
Lou

 

i have already rulled out the starter i took the car to an electrical shop about a month ago and these are the readings that they got
battery rates in at 275a at 1300 gravity (which is low should be 315a but just the battery is only made for a max of 275)
starter draw 230A
alternator 100A
14.2 batter voltage
.01A battery drain
so i really believe it to be the vats at this point, it does start less after i have driven the car so somewhere but i can let it cool all the way sometimes and it still wont start till its ready im ready to go buy a resistor today and just bypass the vats i just need to get my hands on a mulitmeter first

 

What you can check is whether it's the ignition cylinder (seen it before).
There are two thin black wires under the steering column (SOMEBODY PLEASE FILL IN HERE!). They have a connector. That's for the key resistor pellet when it's in the ignition cylinder.

You can disconnect the connector, take two small wires and stick each of them in one hole in the connector (the part that goes into the dash harness). Then put the free ends of the wires on each side of the key resistor pellet. Hold it tight with your fingers (don't worry, no shocks involved and no your fingers won't affect the resistance). And have someone try to crank the engine (or do it with your other hand).

Next thing to check would be the starter enable relay (part of the VATS system). I can't remember its exact location but it's either under the dash next to the fusebox or behind the driver side kick panel. You can identify it by its wire colors: thick yellow, thick dark green, pink, black/yellow.

Three checks you can perform: turn the key ON and measure voltage on the black/yellow wire. It should read zero. And the pink wire should read 12V.
Turn the key to start and measure voltage on both thick wires (yellow and also the dark green). They should both read 12V while you're trying to crank.

Let us know what you find.
Lou

 

ok will do tomorrow i have to get me hands on a multimeter first hopefully all goes well thanks for all the help thus far

 

That doesn't not rule out the starter. A perfect starter will still be inop if heat soaked, was the starter bench tested in 500 degree heat? I had the same problem- as do most 3rd geners. I installed a remote-ford style-starter solenoid and bypassed the solenoid on the starter. Starts everytime no matter what ever since. I bought the kit off Summit for under $20. I definately suggest the test procedure above- PITA but it is better than chasing ghosts.

 

get a remote solenoid before you start hacking up wires. one of the few things ford got right.

 

If starter is getting heat soaked you can also install thermal wrap around it, took care of the problem for me.

 

SUM-G1750 Summit part number for the remote solenoid $20.95

SUM-350108 Summit part number for cheapest heat wrap $16.95

IMHO I think the solenoid is more reliable, will last longer and is the way to go but the wrap is less expensive and easier. I would worry about it falling off and leaving me stranded or deteriorating.

The kit comes with everything except, I believe, a new battery cable going to the solenoid. I bought a 4 gage cable from Walmart and cut it to length, bolted on the battery terminal and crimped the ring terminal, you could also modify your existing starter cable the same but with just one ring terminal; then mount the solenoid anywhere you want (away from the exhaust!) It takes a bit of work to do and will prolly cost ya around $60 total. Good luck and keep us posted!

 

I know I am not the sharpest tack in the box but explain how the remote solenoid actually solves a true heat soaked starter issue.

When a starter becomes heat soaked the rotor expands at a higher rate than the stator and "binds or contacts" with the stator not allowing the motor to spin or allowing the drive gear to extend into the ring gear and the plunger inside the solenoid can suffer the same effects resulting in a no click. This effect is more pronounced with normal wear as the starter ages. The normal operating wear on internal bearings and bushings allow for more opportunity for the "binding effect" by not maintaining the rotor in the optimum position which is centered in the magnetic field the stator.

Looking at the remote solenoid kit from Summit, it still uses the same starter motor and solenoid, effectively all it does is replace a cable, the purple start wire to the S terminal is relocated, and the only difference in operation I can see rather than power from the battery is not constantly on the original batt terminal solenoid but routed from the remote solenoid.

What I don't understand is how the remote solenoid can eliminate the physical effects of heat on the starter motor/solenoid assy.?

 

The starter-mounted solenoid is jumpered thus removing the entire solenoid from the exhuast heat. The only wire going to the starter assembly is the battery cable. I'm no electrical engineer but I know it works and I've never heard of the Ford guys having this issue.

 

VATS have it removed from your eprom

 

is your tilt steering column loose?
with my '89 when i bought it the column was loose and sometimes it wouldn't start. i hotwired a push button so if the key won't start the car all i had to do was turn the key to th on position, hit the button and it started right up. but that was just until i had time to take the car and get the column fixed. everything worked perfectly after that.

 

It was the VATS on my car. I replaced the ignition switch once and a year later it did it again. Now I did the resistor trick and it starts first time every time. I'm going to have it erased in the EPROM next time I have it updated.

 

With the solenoid jumpered when you apply power to the battery terminal the starter mounted solenoid still energizes and kickes out the drive gear and spins the starter motor. The exact same way as putting a screwdriver across the battery terminal and the s terminal at the starter. Which means the only thing different is there is an extra solenoid in the start system and three new connections. With the remote solenoid you are referring to, all it does is use a new cable which eliminates any possibility of heat causing the cable resistance to go up and cause a lower current available from the battery to the starter.

Ford did not have the problem beacuse they did not put a solenoid physically on the starter til just a few years ago. I do have a degree in electronics and do lab research on electrical components for Caterpillar. Before that I was a ASE Master Tech for 10 years.


Here is the section out of me 89 Firebird for the VATS system. There may be some differences such as component locations but the info should be the same

 

thanks to everyone that has offered advice thus far.
i couldnt find a multimeter to borrow so i am going to buy one my next day off but there is something else
my car acted up once again the other night not starting and just as a test i had my buddy come jump me
my volt gauge read around 11 volts and i have tested to make sure it was accurate before so i trust it. but it started right up when jumped.
i have no idea if that means anything im sure it does but i dont know what

 

also has anyone actually done the bypass with the resistor? i am just wanting to check the specifics like where to measure the resistance on the key ( i am assuming on the little black bum towards the top of the key. anyother advice would be helpful
thanks again

 

Measure between the 2 metal spots on either side of the key to determine the resistance.

On the bottom of the steering column you should find a 2-wire plug (can't remember the colors of the wires but there was an outside cover that will be white). Anyway disconnect this plug and I soldered the resistor(s) between the 2 wires on ECM side of the plug. If you've done everything correctly the car will start every time now.

 

Essentially you are suggesting that I cured my starting problems by replacing the battery cable to the starter? It is still routed to the same terminal by the same heat. By jumpering the terminals on the starter-mounted solenoid does that not permanently close that coil thus removing the entire switching function from the exhaust and applying power directly to the mechanical portion of the solenoid? Perhaps the coil is too weak, windings too thin or poor design I don't know. Yes, it is exactly like sticking a screwdriver on the solenoid. I have done my best to explain this to you, if this is a misinformed procedure please advise us as to why IT WORKS because it's been done for years.

 

Mine came with the remote starter kit, and that's the first thing I thought of when I read your story.

 

I know it works never said it didn't. I did say the original starter works EXACTLY the same as it did before the mod. No it does not permanantly close the coil it is not the design of the starter it is basic electricity. It works by reducing the effect of heat on the wires, heat increases resistance and reduces amount of current the cable is capable of carrying. More specifically the start wire to the S terminal, 1) the wire is relocated out of the heat area, 2) the S terminal is tied directly to the battery terminal allowing the same amount of current to apply to the batt terminal and the S terminal at the same time. A 4 guage cable is capable of carrying more current than a 14 guage wire. Correct? As I said the original starter works EXACTLY as it did before the mod, there is 0 volts on the starter battery terminal until the remote is energized versus 12volts in the pre-mod configuration. It works because there is more current available to the starter (battery AND S terminal), and that higher current is enough to supply a hot starter with the current to overcome the thermal expansion and higher resistance I described earlier. The same as replacing a 300CCA battery with a 1000CCA battery more amperage is available.

My issue was when you said "I installed a remote-ford style-starter solenoid and bypassed the solenoid on the starter." It does not BYPASS the original solenoid. On a GM starter with the solenoid mounted to the starter I do believe it is physicaly impossible to bypass/remove the solenoid and be able to operate the starter normally.

 

Did some reading, I think we are both right. It replaces (or bypasses) the switching on the starter-mounted solenoid but solves the heat soak condition by removing the wires away from the exhaust. You are right, it is impossible to operate the starter without the mounted solenoid.

 

I bet is a falty connection on the starter. I had this same problem with my S-10 it would start sometimes and sometimes the starter wouldn't do anything. Either the wire is bad or the connection has some serious rust or something on it. But, do try the bypass, if that is not it I would check the starter connection.

 

crazyirishguy,
I have done a ton of vats bypass with the resistor. It works great and I recommend doing it even if there are no symptoms with the vats. The vats
ignition cylinders always wear out, bad design. You do not want to be left on the side of the road because of one. You might also want to check the neutral safety switch on the console shifter as they wear also or may be mis-adjusted. I have come across 3 bad neutral safety switches while doing a vats bypass for people. It was misdiagnosed by another person first. Try pushing the shifter kinda hard towards park while cranking. Or even try to wiggle forward and back without pressing the button while cranking.
Hope this helps......Randy

 

Another interesting thing to check would be the ignition coil... sounds odd. but I was having the exact same problem as you.. would not start at random points. could be cold. could be warm. didn't matter. changed the coil. started every time.

I missed though in there. Does your starter crank the engine over and it just doesn't start. or does it give you the dead battery slow run and then clicking? or nothing at all?

 

If you seriously think it's the VATS and are having troubles disabling it, I'd be more than happy to disable it in the chip for you if you want. No charge, just for parts prolly around $50. PM me and I can give you the specifics. Anything to help.

 

nothing at all but everything reads normal, voltage gas oil

 

Oh. well. yea could be the vats then I guess. thank go I have never had a car with that in it.... Other than that bad grounds will do it too.

 

um one new question would my security light be coming on if it was in fact my vats??? a few places i was reading was saying i should be seeing that light and i dont believe that i have ever seen it on once?? someone anyone?

 

Have you performed the troubleshooting from my earlier post?
What results did you see? Is it the ignition cylinder? The starter enable relay? The starter solenoid?

Lou

 

im betting on the solonoid when hot.and sometimes they stick even after they cool down, 230 is a high draw for the starter too, if you replace the solonoid onthe starter replace the battery cable also while its out everybody overlooks this and its only 8 bucks!

 

How about the ign. switch in the steering column?