OK so i am trying to be short as possble without missing any key points

bought the car about 2 years ago

first year and a half about three times went to start the car and nothing (no click or nosies but battery still had full power) started later (within an hour) with no help just needed time and i never really did anything about it

past six months getting worse and worse only seeming to happen when car is hot I found that whenever it happened that i could jump the car (only with another running car (portable jumpers and cars not running do not work) or i could just come back about an hour later and start it back up, the past two weeks the car rarely starts on its own power battey still always at a good charge but i think the car is too hot now even in the mornings

now i have been through alot of different issues that it could be with no luck so far, vats, batteries (yes plural) i have had three different techs check it out and it only happened once in the shop and he said he believed it to be my alarm but after speaking to an alarm guy for a while he was quite convinced that it could not be that sense it could be jumped everytime with success and he has lead me back towards the starter and heat soak

please somone tell me if its the starter i need to buy one tonight or first thing tomorrow morning i have spent alot of money already trying to fix this one issue i just need to know if a heat soaked starter or a bad one can be jum started everytime like what is happening for me??

I think it is either the connections at the starter,or the starter solenoid.
The solenoid is on the starter. Take out the starter and inspect the large batt connections and the small solenoid wire for corrosion or arcing. While the starter is removed have it tested at the parts store. Most likely it will need the starter. If the solenoid is bad IMO I would replace the whole thing and get one with lifetime warranty. The solenoid has a rotating disc with a coating on it. Over time the disc gets arced out and finally wears out. Sometimes it is just one spot on the disc and only acts up when that spot is reached. But beware that the starter can be damaged over time by bad cables and bad connections. These bad connections cause a voltage drop and in turn the starter draws more amps. That is why a jump start seems to help but a new battery will not. I check for voltage drops by using a digital meter set to volts DC in PARALELL with the suspected cable. Crank the car over while observing the meter. ANY volts shown will be the loss between the two points. My friend replaced both battery's and his starter in his diesel to no avail, I found he was losing 2.5 volts through a salt and water soaked cable. Let me know what you find. As for heat soak, my 88 camaro with uncoated headers never got heat soak to my surprise, I was even using a V6 starter at the time!
Randy

thanks for the quick answer. I do not believe it to be the connections just because i had the car inspected about 5 months ago at a electrical place and the checked all the connections wires and the draw of the starter and the output of the battery and alternator the also checked for parasitic loads and all that turned up perfect. i think the starter has been going bad for a while now and i belive the solenoid to be the problem and i know i have to replace the entire starter but i am still wondering if it is the solenoid or a heat soaked starter is it normal for me to be able to jump start it everytime?

Do you even have headers? Like uncoated ones that are practically touching the headers? Even then, "heat soak" is somewhat unlikely. Ask sofakingdom what he thinks about heat soak.
I'd also be inclined to think it's wiring. How about the ground strap between the PS cylinder head and the body? Battery to ground? Replace those two, along with the power wire from battery to starter. Use 4AWG or better. It'll cost you about $12 grand total. I'll bet that'll help.

If it's not a complete cure, a new starter should do you up good. Your problems really scream "solenoid". So you might as well grab a whole new starter, preferably one of the more efficient mini starters.

I was JUST about to post this very same question, but decided to read through to see if anyone else had this rather unique problem as well. I'm glad I did!

My problem is very close to the original poster's problem - Take the firebird on a drive on the interstate for 30 minutes or so, get to destination, try to start her again and it's a 50/50 chance absolutely nothing will happen. Had this happen to me twice yesterday, and it's very embarassing to ask someone for a jump, especially when you have a fully charged jump pack in the back seat. I've replaced both the battery and alternator and it would do this to me everytime I ran her for 30 minutes or more and she was good and warmed up. When driving around town, short 10 min drives, she had no problem starting.

Looks like it's time to replace that starter. This will be the third starter on this car too

Both Randy and Sonix gave excellent advice on both parts. Often wires appear fine but have corossion on the inside. Starting issues are often best solved through ground replacement/upgrade, power wire replacement/upgrade, and the starter as well.

Side note, do you have headers on the vehicle? I would always check the main power wire running from the battery to the starter to see if it has melted from uncoated headers or direct contact. This would explain why after running the car for a while it would get hot and lose starting voltage by grounding itself to the body.

I used a 2GA welding cable for both battery cables and my starter is to close the headers. Used that on several cars never had a hot start problem. Personally I found the better wire than stock will have thinner but more individual wires in the conductor core.

Yea, my personal experience echos this as well. I think I have 2AWG or 1AWG from battery to starter, battery neg to alt bracket, and battery to frame. I have the same tired old 305 LG4 starter, works great cranking over my 10:1 350, hot or.... I was going to say cold as well, but it doesn't like cranking at below -15*C or so, even with the big battery i've got...

Another idea is to get a higher CCA rated battery, provided that it fits.

It's just a thought

I feel your pain, i have always had starting problems ever since i got my car. Took it to the alarm shop, they never could figure it out. I went to an electrical shop and they removed a relay, worked ok for awhile. Then the starting problems kept getting worse and worse and one day i kicked the undercarriage of the steering column where the kill switch was and it started.

I would turn the key to the ON position and short the two starter wires with a penny and it would start. I got fed up with it and removed the entire alarm system and got a new one and no problems.

Last year my starter gave me slow cranking problems and heat soak and i replaced it with a remanufactured AZ unit and it cranked over like a charm.

Then sometimes i had trouble getting it to crank over, turn the key and it would act like it was constipated. I noticed there was some play in my shifter and if i did not push it up all the way to park or have it exactly in neutral it wouldnt start. After adjusting the neutral safety switch it worked fine.

Recently i been having the same problem you are, it will not crank all the time, no matter where it is hot or cold. Even when i put the car alarm in Valet mode it will not crank, i even checked the N/S switch position. I have to go open the hood, turn the key to ON and short the wires together with a penny and it cranks right over. I cleaned the terminals and links at the starter with electronics cleaner and it doesnt work.

I even noticed lately that it will crank after sitting for awhile but the fuel pump doesnt seem to be engaging or something, since it will crank over for like 20 seconds and not sputter. Hot wire it ...BANG starts right up. Maybe it could be ignition switch?

i had problems starting in heat. my vats wiring to starter kill was bad, my starter relay and i believe thats it. and my car fires up at any temperature!i also replace distributer, rotorcap, spar plugs, wires, fuel pump. but thats another story

Just got back from the local Al&Ed's auto sound.After a variety of starter related problems,it all turned out to be the "POS" alarm system that was added to my 92 Camaro sometime after the car was originally purchased.When I bought the car in Nov.of 05 it had a Bendix problem, so I changed the Starter and discoverd someone in the cars history had applied a "Band Aid" fix to cover the hot/cold/whenever starting issue.After hours spent tracing wires and trying everything I could think of,it was simply an Alarm system going bad. So before you change a bunch of parts and buy into the "Old Wiring" line,replace or disconnect that alarm. This is not in anyway "Vats" related. The Vats system works just fine.

Don`t assume that all is well because a shop checked it out. When I bought my Iroc, the seller raved about the mechanic he used. I found most of the grounds were not connected and only 2 bolts held the 700r4 trans in and they were loose. This mechanic was trying to sell the previous owner new guages because they were not working properly. Duh!!No grounds!! The guages work fine now that the ground wires are connected.

Yup, I had the same hot start problem. I removed the starter and sol. Bought a rebuild kit from Checker Auto for $5.0, had the comutator turned (free) and turned the sol. large copper disc over. Works great, problem solved!

Auggie

If your talking to me,FYI I drove less than 5 miles to Al & Ed's yesterday at 8:45 shut the car off at 9:00.At 9:15 the car was "DOA" in the parking lot. Five minutes later the Tech was driving it in back to change the "Alarm". The car now starts and runs fine hot or cold makes no difference.

I had a problem starting my car at times and finally checked the relay behind the kick panel next to my left foot on the drivers side. (It controls the starter some how). Any way the clips holding the relay to the wiring harness were missing and it had worked itself loose enough to cause intermittent trouble. I put a zip-tie around it nice and tight and haven't had trouble since. Before finding that , it was a real nightmare!
Buy the way, I wrapped my starter completely with adhesive backed heat-barrier material ( made by Cool-It Thermo Tec) and used two long hose clamps around it also before installing my last starter.

I know I'm late coming here, but...

I can't believe nobody suggested heat soak of the solenoid.

I rigged up a Ford remote solenoid, on my 68 amaro, back when I was 17 (now 36). This was before the kits were made to do this.

I used to deliver pizza in the car, so I'd make a short run, come back, and shut it off, over & over. The headers constantly caused heat soak.

It got to the point, I didn't even TRY to start it with the key after a while. I'd run out, turn the key on, pop the hood, use a screwdriver to jump the connections, and it would start. When I got tired of doing that, I did the Ford solenoid trick. Never, EVER had that problem again!

I also believe that it is a starter issue. A lady I work with (coincidentally the original owner of the '91 that I now own) had the exact same problem with her Van. She had the ignition switch replaced and it didn't solve the problem so she took it back and had the ignition switch replaced again but it still didn't solve the problem. Finally, she talked to a guy at a dodge dealership and he suggested replacing the starter. She replaced the starter and hasn't since had a problem starting her van.

See post #14.

Auggie