K.C.Kustoms

Hello, everyone this is going to be my first post so be easy on me.

*To see my problem and skip the background story of the car skip down to the starred line.

I bought a 1991 Firebird v6 in the summer of 2009. When I bought it ran great until I brought it home. That's when the problems started.

The car would not start. So, we gave it a charge and then it started right up.
Well, the only problem with this is that every time after, it would not keep a charge. So we decided to take the battery to Autozone to make sure it was ok. But they said our battery was fine. So, then we looked at the alternator and it had a crack in the case so we replaced that with a new one. And that seemed to clear up the problem for about a month. Then it started not being able to start on us again in parking lots when we would go to the store. But then it would start up after a little bit of time. Then we parked it in the driveway for awhile, about 2 months because it needed new brakes. After those 2 months there was an emergency so we needed to use it and after charging it again. It started up fine but then it died on us in a parking lot once again. Then started up a few hours later. We then parked it in our driveway until the Summer of 2010. When I decided to take it on a test drive. It was running okish for about 20 minutes and then the engine just turned off on me completely. Fortunately, it was just on the side streets so there was no cars around. We tried to jump it for about 10 minutes when it finally started. I just barely got into my street when the thing shut off on me once again. So someone had to push me up my driveway with another car. Now its been sitting there ever since. I am planning on putting a new engine in some day and restoring the bird but right now I just need a car to drive.

*So, from reading past posts on this website I have come to the conclusion that it is the "Vehicle Anti-Theft System" or (VATS). The previous owner of this Firebird did a horrendous job with the wiring with wires cut here and there to put in a new radio and then a failed attempt to put in a Bull Dog Remote starter. Now I do believe that the VATS wires are located on the drivers side kick panel and hook up to a black box. Well, in attempt to put in the remote starter, they cut that box out and just hardwired the large green and large yellow wires together and then put the small black striped yellow wire and yellow small wire together. Now I'm guessing this is why the thing still starts but I am just really confused about this car's wiring. Half the buttons on the dash panel don't work along with all the lights inside the car and the air conditioner. I don't know if this is linked to the other problems but I just thought I would put it out there. I did however try to rewire a 1991 Comaro's VATS black box into my firebird but I don't think it helped, it might have even made the problems worse.

Now that you know the problem, I would like to know what you guys think the solution could be. Should I just re-connect the hardwired VATS system or is it a fuel pump problem , or starter problem or something else?

Thank you guys for looking at the post and hopefully you can help.

Here are some pictures of the Firebirds engine, engine compartment, driverside kick panel wiring and a 1991 Comaro's VATS black box.

Front view of the engine compartment.


View of the passenger side's engine compartment. It looks like wires are cut from the air box.


View of wires spliced into the battery.


View of a hose coming from the engine that has a screw in it.


View of the drivers side upper firewall with a wiring harness.


Driver's side kick panel with a comaro VATS black box.


Close up view of the Comaro's Black box.


Disconnected VATS wires.


Side view of the engine compartment.

K.C.Kustoms

View of wires that were spliced in the drivers side kick panel.


View of fuse block.


Comaro's VATS black box.


Comaro's VATS black box # view.


Comaro's VATS black box close up of numbers.


Side view of VATS wires.


View of battery underside.


Front view of engine and engine compartment.


View by air filter box.

K.C.Kustoms

View of cut wires on the air box.

cIaRmOaCrZo

sounds miserable man. but can you tell me exactly what eveything is doing when you get in, turn the key over, ect?

are the lights dim when you turn them on (engine off), is security light on, are you getting ANY kind of starter action when you bump the key over, does it crank over, click, nothing, ect.?? tell me those first before i dig in deeper.

K.C.Kustoms

Here is an update. Today I decided I would work on the Firebird a little bit. To see If I could get it started.

So, what I did was reconnect or hardwired the (Large Yellow Wire and the Large Green Wire) together along with the (small yellow wire and the small black with a yellow stripe wire). I do believe that these are the "VATS" wires.

I then charged the battery of the car and then I proceeded to start the car.

When I turned the key the Bird started right up, and it ran. I did not drive it because it sounds, smells and looks like it needs to be tuned. But, when I did start it, I did notice that the security light stayed on and then turned off after a few seconds. So, I hope that me connecting the "VATS" wires together solved the starting up problem and the spontaneous shutting off problem. But am unsure. If anyone can reassure this to me that would be great.

Thank you guys for taking a my post to try and help me.

K.C.Kustoms

Now, the problem still remains of the car losing its charge? Which could be just a battery problem. Why the lights on the inside and basically all the electronics don't work in it? Why wires are cut and not connected on the inside of the engine compartment particularly on the air box, and also on the inside of the car? Also why are some of the hoses on the engine plugged with screws? And why does the air conditioner not work?

If you guys can answer any of these questions it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again guys.

camaronewbie

OK - leave the large yellow and large green connected to each other. The two small ones, do not connect together - the yellow small wire is a positive, and the black/yellow small wire is a ground - you are creating a short!

Your problem is not VATS. The car would not start if it was VATS. Once the car starts, VATS is out of the system, and the car will run until YOU shut it off, so if it starts and later dies, it's NOT VATS.

Here's how VATS works, so you know ...

Your key has a pellet that is a resistor. You insert key, the pellet edges make contact in the cylinder, sensing this resistance value to the VATS module (which is NOT what you have pictured there, it's way up in the dash, not in the kick panel). The VATS module gets the resistance value, tests it, and if it's right, it works, if wrong, the module locks up for 5 minutes. So, it works, and 2 things happen - 1) a ground is sent to the Starter Enable Relay (SER) - this is the small black/yellow wire - to the SER, and 2) a pulse wave is generated and sent to the ECM that 'tells the ECM to alllow the injectors to fire.

Now - what you have pictured is the SER - it has 4 wires, 1) a small yellow wire which is positive from the fuse block and has power always, 2) the small black/yellow wire which is the ground from the VATS module, 3) large yellow wire that comes from the ignition switch located on top of the steering column under the dash, and 4) the large green wire that runs to the Neutral Safety Switch (NSS).

The small yellow and the small black/yellow complete a circuit that energizes the SER, when the SER is energized the large yellow and large green wire are connected together via the SER. Thus 12v is sent to the NSS - if in Park or Neutral (auto) or if clutch depressed (manual), then the 12v is passed through the NSS and out on a large purple wire to the starter through the driver side main harness.

That is the ignition side of what VATS controls, and can be bypassed by simply connecting the yellow and green wire together, or by grounding the small black/yellow wire anywhere.

The fuel injection side of the VATS cannot be bypassed through wiring - the VATS module HAS to get the resistance value (from the pellet key) that it is looking for, UNLESS you bypass the VATS by installing the correct resistor in the circuit so the VATS module always gets the right value (see www.thirdgen.org/vats).

NOW - you know the ignition circuit. BUT - it's not your problem.

YOUR PROBLEM lies elsewhere. I'd check in order.....

1) make sure your fuel pump is running
2) make sure you have correct fuel pressure
3) change fuel filter (might have debris in it that's clogging when you accellerate)
4) check for any codes (http://www.thirdgen.org/service-engi...ht-error-codes) and check/replace anything that comes up
5) replace ignition module and pickup coil inside distributor

You've basically taken out the SER by connecting large yellow and large green wire together - you can replace that SER and rewire as it should be once you get the car running again if you like - it's a $13 item. But for now, get those small SER wires disconnected from one another, and get the ends wrapped so you don't have any shorts (which is killing your battery), and then stay away from the VATS until you find the real issue for the car not running longer.

Hope that helps.

K.C.Kustoms

Yes, It does help. Thanks a lot for all the information. I will tell you how it all turns out.

K.C.Kustoms

I disconnected the (small yellow and the small black and yellow) wires from each other. So, what should I do now. Connect the (small black and yellow) wire to the car so it will be grounded and then cover the (small yellow) wire with something so it wont short?

Or just cover both the wires so they wont short?

K.C.Kustoms

Today I drove the Firebird to my local auto parts store thinking I had fixed the engine trouble. But when I came out the thing wouldn't start. It would start stay on for about a minute and then while driving it would just shut right off.

So I left it there and decided to check the codes on a code reader.

The code reader then displayed the following "Code Errors."

33. High voltage (low vacuum) at mass air flow sensor (or MAP sensor)
43. Low voltage at electronic spark timing circuit
54. Low voltage at fuel pump OR Low voltage at Fuel pump relay OR Output failure at quad driver module.

Now I'm not exactly sure what these codes mean or how to fix them so if anyone could help it would be greatly appreciated.

I do have a feeling though that it has something to do with the fuel pump because it sounds like the engine is starving for fuel.

I put my ear to the gas tank while we tried to start it and I could not hear the pump running.

So, my first thought is the fuel pump. But still am unsure.

dmcnew

Excuse me for being an idiot here...but where is the MAF sensor on the 3.1?

ATOMIC

iTrader: (1)

it sounds like it could also be the control module inside the distributor,
i've had those go bad exactly like that, runs ok then cuts off, runs ok then runs bad,
won't start, will almost start.
and that part WILL NOT set a check engine code or light.
it could also be the pick-up in the dist. below the module, for that you have to remove the distributor.

Base91

iTrader: (1)

No MAF sensor. It's MAP on the firewall passenger side. follow the small vac line from the back of the plenum.

backyardwrench

What you are looking at in that kick panel is a relay. The vats is up in the dash. The 2 heavy wires come off ignition switch. The black/yellow stripe goes to vats module. All the vats module does is recognize the resistor in the key and grounds the system.
I am currently working on the same thing. I have done research for 2 days now. I found a shop that had experience in this problem and gave me some electrical schematics to help me out. All the dealerships told me that the car was to old for them to help me. I found out that they would send the car to this shop so I cut the dealer out and called the shop myself to ask questions.
I hope to have car running tomorrow. Battery ran low because of cranking engine so had to charge it overnight.
From what I'm taking is you ground the black/yellow stripe wire to bypass the vats. You should no longer need the chip in the key.

backyardwrench

Someone has that car butchered. You may need to go get some new harnesses. I know that that relay in the kick panel has to be there. I don't have schematics on me, they are in car, but that relay is for starter if I recall.
Call Pontiac at 1-800-762-2737 and ask for local dealer. Once you call service dept. ask them where they would send your car since it is to old for them to work on. They take out all info of any car over 10 yrs old from the computers. Then all you do is call that shop and hopefully you can get the same kind of help I did.
Good luck and I can hopefully update how I make out tomorrow and tell you more how it's done.