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I’m gonna start this off by saying by no means am I an expert but I do know how to handle a wrench. I’ve looked through about a hundred forums and haven’t found one with an answer to my question
89 camaro rs , 305tbi 5 speed manual
problem: starter clicking when cranking.
when it happens: intermittent, I live on a hill so I bump start it to get it running. I can drive it for an hour but when I park and shut it off , when I crank it will click many times as if the battery is dead.
what have I done: new alternator, new battery, new starter , new positive and negative cables. Sanded down my connections to ensure good. Cleaned the junction box up with new terminals. Added ground strap on motor to frame for peace of mind. Tested the new battery to make sure it’s not a dud.Not sure what else could be robbing power from the car. Problem occurred before all of these parts
I may be forgetting something but any questions ask away, thank you in advance
Click-no-crank happens when the starter tries to throw the pinion gear but it can't clear tooth abutment with the flywheel. Or in some circumstances it could be due to solenoid contacts that won't carry current for the motor to crank, but you already replaced your starter and eliminated that as a possibility.
Main causes for not clearing tooth abutment are low voltage at the solenoid switch terminal (purple wire) during crank attempt, or the other cause could be burrs and damage to flywheel ring gear teeth.
Basically it's either the circuit that operates the starter solenoid, or it's physical damage to the flywheel.
Does the negative cable go from the battery to the block? Or has it been "improved" such that the neg cable goes to the "frame" or something, then there's (or maybe there isn't) another from somewhere to the block?
I don't know the stock layout for battery cable but I can tell you best practice (regardless of what factory did).
If there is a ground stud on the starter then use it. If no ground stud, then they are expecting the starter to be grounded by physical contact to the engine block. In that case it is important to make sure the mating surface between starter and engine block is a clean, bare metal surface because that's where the current is going.
Best practice is to have a ground cable (same diameter as starter B+ cable) between engine block and battery to handle the high current of the starter while cranking. It's fine if that cable jumps to the frame first, just so there is another cable of that size to the battery.
The starter has two electrical circuits: (1) solenoid; and (2) motor. The big starter cables are needed to carry the high current of the motor circuit. It doesn't actually take a big cable to operate the solenoid, it just takes a good connection without excessive voltage drop.
Does the negative cable go from the battery to the block? Or has it been "improved" such that the neg cable goes to the "frame" or something, then there's (or maybe there isn't) another from somewhere to the block?
not sure if this is how I reply to you, but the ground is just a new cable stock location, everything was sanded down to ensure good connection. Then I put a ground strap on the opposite side of the motor to the frame. I tested my ohms and I have .5 ohms from block to frame and same from battery to block.
I don't know the stock layout for battery cable but I can tell you best practice (regardless of what factory did).
If there is a ground stud on the starter then use it. If no ground stud, then they are expecting the starter to be grounded by physical contact to the engine block. In that case it is important to make sure the mating surface between starter and engine block is a clean, bare metal surface because that's where the current is going.
Best practice is to have a ground cable (same diameter as starter B+ cable) between engine block and battery to handle the high current of the starter while cranking. It's fine if that cable jumps to the frame first, just so there is another cable of that size to the battery.
The starter has two electrical circuits: (1) solenoid; and (2) motor. The big starter cables are needed to carry the high current of the motor circuit. It doesn't actually take a big cable to operate the solenoid, it just takes a good connection without excessive voltage drop.
There is no ground wire on the starter (at least I didn’t have one) but there is a bracket that looks like it’s supposed to attach to the starter. It was not connected to my old starter so I did not reconnect it I just didn’t have the tools on me at the time. I will sand and connect that today and see if it makes a difference
Click-no-crank happens when the starter tries to throw the pinion gear but it can't clear tooth abutment with the flywheel. Or in some circumstances it could be due to solenoid contacts that won't carry current for the motor to crank, but you already replaced your starter and eliminated that as a possibility.
Main causes for not clearing tooth abutment are low voltage at the solenoid switch terminal (purple wire) during crank attempt, or the other cause could be burrs and damage to flywheel ring gear teeth.
Basically it's either the circuit that operates the starter solenoid, or it's physical damage to the flywheel.
Its clicking a lot of times, as in not enough amperage getting to the starter. When I inspected the flywheel teeth they were fine. I will check the alignment of the new starter to see if there’s anything off there
Same thing on my '91, ended up installing a Dodge starter relay from the purple key wire to the starter.. no more issues..
you know I didn’t even think about that, do you have the part number for the dodge starter relay?? It’s cheap I know so it wouldn’t hurt to put one on there. 32 years of age on the car it doesn’t hurt to replace anything this isn’t a customers car and I would like to restore it to its former glory XD. Also any reason why you chose a dodge relay instead of factory???
Whenever I heard "click click click click click click" in rapid succession, it was a dead battery, not enough juice to engage the starter to crank over.
Whenever I heard "click click click click click click" in rapid succession, it was a dead battery, not enough juice to engage the starter to crank over.
that was my original thought. So I tested the battery and ended up replacing it anyways. No luck. Then I replaced my cables because I know it’s a lack of amperage getting to the starter. Still no luck. Alternator was replaced a few months back but haven’t driven much , That tests good as well.
not sure if this is how I reply to you, but the ground is just a new cable stock location, everything was sanded down to ensure good connection. Then I put a ground strap on the opposite side of the motor to the frame. I tested my ohms and I have .5 ohms from block to frame and same from battery to block.
As a slight side, testing ohms is not the best test for this application. Doing a voltage drop test, while the circuit is loaded, is the best way to determine any bad connection point. You can have a decent ohm reading but find it can't carry much or any measurable load.
As a slight side, testing ohms is not the best test for this application. Doing a voltage drop test, while the circuit is loaded, is the best way to determine any bad connection point. You can have a decent ohm reading but find it can't carry much or any measurable load.
All of the cables were new so I figured ohm it out and see what it looks like. I didn’t want to assume they were good but you have a point. If you think it’s worth checking and could be related to my problem how would I put the car under a load ? Bump start it and get it running with headlights radio etc on?? Also does anyone know what dodge starter relay the other guy was talking about ? (Btw we share initials JT)
Where exactly is your ground wire hooked up to? The block? Alternator bracket? Etc?
Can always use one leg of jumper cables to go from the battery negative to the starter body and see if thats your problem.
If that doesnt work, take a screwdriver and jump the battery positive on the starter to the "S" terminal on the solenoid. It should crank fine. Maybe you got a bad starter and/or solenoid, or you have a wiring issue along the purple wire going to the "S" terminal?
you know I didn’t even think about that, do you have the part number for the dodge starter relay?? It’s cheap I know so it wouldn’t hurt to put one on there. 32 years of age on the car it doesn’t hurt to replace anything this isn’t a customers car and I would like to restore it to its former glory XD. Also any reason why you chose a dodge relay instead of factory???
Just a link I found real quick search so you get the idea.. - https://classicbodyparts.com/product...69-model-w-mt/
I used the Dodge one over the Ford relay because it's small and I could mount it closer to the starter on the firewall.. Yes they are cheap, for some reason the purple wire on mine didn't excite the starter but it has enough power to trigger the Dodge relay to crank it,, even sounds like a dodge cranking over now funny enough.. Just google "Dodge starter relay" think I paid under $10 shipped.. rockauto maybe i forget.. the ford one works too, just bigger.. maybe search 76 ford f150 starter relay for the ford one, they are all basically the same for all the older model cars and trucks.. Pic of the dodge relay below..
Last edited by Camaro86IrocZ; 03-20-2021 at 01:24 AM.
Where exactly is your ground wire hooked up to? The block? Alternator bracket? Etc?
Can always use one leg of jumper cables to go from the battery negative to the starter body and see if thats your problem.
If that doesnt work, take a screwdriver and jump the battery positive on the starter to the "S" terminal on the solenoid. It should crank fine. Maybe you got a bad starter and/or solenoid, or you have a wiring issue along the purple wire going to the "S" terminal?
ground is hooked to the passenger side head, I will go today and run a ground jumper wire. I don’t really want to jump the starter as it will crank it’s just it only cranks if the battery is fully charged and on a jump pack. Could you tell me where the purple wire goes from the starter? I will test the ohms from end to end and see if there’s a break or resistance , also I obviously should have 12v at the b+ on the starter and the small terminal on the starter should only get 12v when in the run position , now how would I test voltage drop on it to test if it is my solenoid/starter that is bad? Hook multimeter to starter and ground and crank? What number should I look for and what would they tell me. Thank you all for the time and help
Just a link I found real quick search so you get the idea.. - https://classicbodyparts.com/product...69-model-w-mt/
I used the Dodge one over the Ford relay because it's small and I could mount it closer to the starter on the firewall.. Yes they are cheap, for some reason the purple wire on mine didn't excite the starter but it has enough power to trigger the Dodge relay to crank it,, even sounds like a dodge cranking over now funny enough.. Just google "Dodge starter relay" think I paid under $10 shipped.. rockauto maybe i forget.. the ford one works too, just bigger.. maybe search 76 ford f150 starter relay for the ford one, they are all basically the same for all the older model cars and trucks.. Pic of the dodge relay below..
so when you Hooked this up did yo remove the existing relay? Or did you just wire this one in, and do you connect all the legs of the relay or did you leave out the fuel pump one? Thank you I will try this if I can’t figure out my problem
Okay so I’m currently testing the car. Battery has 12.98 volts when the car is off (I was letting it charge over night) starter has 12.9 volts , alternator has 12.95 volts. When I start the car it has 14.7 volts to the battery so alternator is charging and when I put it under load (all lights on radio on etc.) 14.5 volts. Started right up today with fully charged battery. So now I know that 1.) my battery is perfectly fine. 2.) my alternator works. And 3.) my starter is properly aligned and doesn’t need shimming. All I’ve done since the original post was put an ignition coil on it since mine wasn’t in the best shape. However I don’t think that has anything to do with not enough amps at the starter. Will update soon
I drove the car for about 45 minutes, long enough to get it hot and fans kick on etc., coming to a stop light I had no lights on no radio and I hit my turn signal and the cut shuts off. I turn the turn signal off and car fires right back up and made it home. Now it starts back up perfectly fine. Only thing I’ve done was the ignition coil. Does that make any sense? Ignition coil replaced and now the starter doesn’t click click click??? Turns over perfectly fine. Also what would’ve made it shut off at the light? I’m glad it’s working now but I don’t think the ignition coil had anything to do with it. So maybe my problem is intermittent and it’s not showing now. I’m kind of lost because it’s running fine minus the shutting off the one time. Can’t get that to repeat either.
If the starter solenoid is chattering then the problem is likely in the solenoid switch circuit (purple wire), not the cranking circuit (battery cables). The solenoid will drop out somewhere around 4V. It's normal for battery voltage to momentarily go low when the starter first begins to crank, but it shouldn't go so low that the solenoid drops out. What's happening in your case is the solenoid drops out the moment the starter motor wants to crank ---> That stops the starter from cranking and voltage goes back up and solenoid pulls back in ---> Process repeats itself.
You'd like for there to be less than 1V difference between starter B+ (battery cable) and starter Switch terminal (purple wire) while the starter is under load cranking the engine. If the switch terminal has low voltage then you'll need to chase that circuit back to the problem. You can do a quick test to see if the problem goes away by jumping between starter B+ and solenoid switch terminal (this test bypasses the purple wire).
The purple wire goes to firewall by the brake booster through a large bulkhead connector called C100. It goes into the interior to a gear or clutch safety switch, thru a start relay, thru a main ignition switch on top of the steering column, and then back through C100 to one of the fusible links where it gets power from battery.
My guess is one of the switches in the interior need maintenance (safety switch, start relay, ignition switch). It could be the ignition switch because you're having other intermittent problems with powering devices. That ignition switch on top of the steering column powers most the car.
As a slight side, testing ohms is not the best test for this application. Doing a voltage drop test, while the circuit is loaded, is the best way to determine any bad connection point.
The battery cables are teeny tiny resistance, supposed to be less than 0.001 Ohm for the whole run of battery cables. A hand-held multimeter can't measure resistances that low. If you're really seeing 0.5 Ohm, then that's ridiculously high and maybe a real problem. But keep in mind that some bolts don't have a very conductive coating so you can see high resistance if probing at the bolt head instead of the ring terminal.
If the starter solenoid is chattering then the problem is likely in the solenoid switch circuit (purple wire), not the cranking circuit (battery cables). The solenoid will drop out somewhere around 4V. It's normal for battery voltage to momentarily go low when the starter first begins to crank, but it shouldn't go so low that the solenoid drops out. What's happening in your case is the solenoid drops out the moment the starter motor wants to crank ---> That stops the starter from cranking and voltage goes back up and solenoid pulls back in ---> Process repeats itself.
You'd like for there to be less than 1V difference between starter B+ (battery cable) and starter Switch terminal (purple wire) while the starter is under load cranking the engine. If the switch terminal has low voltage then you'll need to chase that circuit back to the problem. You can do a quick test to see if the problem goes away by jumping between starter B+ and solenoid switch terminal (this test bypasses the purple wire).
The purple wire goes to firewall by the brake booster through a large bulkhead connector called C100. It goes into the interior to a gear or clutch safety switch, thru a start relay, thru a main ignition switch on top of the steering column, and then back through C100 to one of the fusible links where it gets power from battery.
My guess is one of the switches in the interior need maintenance (safety switch, start relay, ignition switch). It could be the ignition switch because you're having other intermittent problems with powering devices. That ignition switch on top of the steering column powers most the car.
sorry it took me so long to get back to this. I have a few questions
1.) if the starter is misaligned would it be intermittent or a definite, I agree on something is an intermittent problem and needs to be fixed.
2.) I’m not worried so much as to diagnose it because everything is so old in it , could stand to be replaced. I’m not on the smallest budget out there so I can replace the ignition switch (not the cylinder) the start relay and the clutch safety switch. But by replacing the ignition switch will I have problems with the anti theft? If not I will replace them all and not worry about the damn headache it’s Been.
until today I thought it was a wire or something on the starter battery alternator side of things until it’s been acting intermittent, which makes me believe starter relay and ignition switch for sure. So if replacing those along with the clutch safety switch should fix my intermittent problem and not give me more problems like the vats then I will go ahead and replace those and get back to you. I appreciate all the help and insight
(side note , today it cranked up 6-7 times , drove around got hot still cranked, put a load on it still cranked. But one thing I did notice is when I crank it SOMETIMES it will crank crank crank click click crank crank then turn over. Like it has the voltage and amperage but it drops out and then comes back in. That’s what lead me to ask the starter alignment issue which I believe is separate hopefully it’s as simple as if it’s aligned it’ll start and if not it won’t.)
Starter being misaligned would cause issues with gear engagement, not solenoid chatter.
The "ignition switch" is a big electrical switch on top of the steering column. There's a bunch of big wires that go in and out of it. There's a metal rod that extends up to the key switch. Turning the key switch pushes that rod up and down which moves the ignition switch into the different positions for off, run, and crank. I think there's a way to adjust the throw to make sure the ignition switch is hitting all its positions.
My ignition switch got flaky after the car sat for many years. I took it apart and cleaned the copper contacts and it's been working good for years. It's a pretty simple device and not much to go wrong with it.
Starter being misaligned would cause issues with gear engagement, not solenoid chatter.
The "ignition switch" is a big electrical switch on top of the steering column. There's a bunch of big wires that go in and out of it. There's a metal rod that extends up to the key switch. Turning the key switch pushes that rod up and down which moves the ignition switch into the different positions for off, run, and crank. I think there's a way to adjust the throw to make sure the ignition switch is hitting all its positions.
My ignition switch got flaky after the car sat for many years. I took it apart and cleaned the copper contacts and it's been working good for years. It's a pretty simple device and not much to go wrong with it.
I found an ac Delco one for $20 but I’m goin go to call my old dealership (used to work for Chevrolet LOL) and order that me ignition switch and the starter relay.
Testing and troubleshooting isn't just about saving money, it's about finding the problem so you can be done with it. You might have half the car refurbished before you get this figured out throwing parts at it. Right now you're working off the hunch of a guy on the internet. It's pretty hard to troubleshoot from a keyboard and I might have a different opinion if I was actually working on the car.
Testing and troubleshooting isn't just about saving money, it's about finding the problem so you can be done with it. You might have half the car refurbished before you get this figured out throwing parts at it. Right now you're working off the hunch of a guy on the internet. It's pretty hard to troubleshoot from a keyboard and I might have a different opinion if I was actually working on the car.
you’re absolutely right and I don’t disagree with you, my problem is getting someone to help me turn the key while I test the two wires on the starter. “Make sure there’s less then 1v difference” being that it’s intermittent and I’ve already replaced the most of the parts. It’s hard for me to get a friend or family to help me even for a minute so worse case it’s only down to 4 things
1.) starter relay (ordered)
2.) ignition switch (ordered)
3.) clutch safety switch
4.) wires on this circuit, broken or corroded
I will do my best to get someone to help me out worst case I’ll go buy some extended test leads and alligator clamps to do it by myself. I will test it before swapping another part though even if it wastes my time being intermittent
Get on matchmaker and have your first date troubleshooting your car. There won't be a second date but maybe won't need to if you get it fixed.
XD that’s funny as hell, I have a girlfriend I just don’t like asking for help (this forum is an exception) I will get someone’s help , do you mind giving me a check list of things to check and how to do them so I don’t have to read through this whole thread to come up with an answer
I have my ignition switch and my starter relay, today or tomorrow I will try and get those both installed and tighten my steering wheel (tilt column is loose) will report back after install
Hold off on the relay as a last ditch effort, didn't realize your column was fubar..
I should’ve mentioned that in the original post. You think that would mean ignition switch correct??? When I replace the ignition switch (not the cylinder) would I have to worry about vats or keys? I was going to do it today since I have the parts. But I couldn’t figure out how to tighten my wheel. The cover around it doesn’t look like it comes off. Do I absolutely have to remove my wheel to do it? Any info on how to fix the wheel and ignition switch simultaneously would be greatly appreciated. Also I think my voltage regulator on my alternator is going bad so I’m going to exchange my alternator and hopefully you or someone else will give me info on how to fix the tilt column and if the ign switch requires any other work besides replacing and aligning it
Checked battery at 13.1 volts
checked alt at 14.6 volts
alt under load at 13.89 volts
Battery after being driven 13.1 volts
let car sit for about an hour. Noticed when starting that during the crank it would click and resume cranking
crank crank crank click click crank crank click crank turns over. Trying to be as detailed as possible because I’m not sure what the hell it could be after all I’ve done I’m not sure what would cause this to happen. Car did not start. Any ideas?
03-18-2021, 06:49 AM
