I am wanting to build a 383 with a vortech setup and had a question about the heads. Can anyone remember the article a few years back that Car Craft did about the comparison between the stock cast vortech heads and the E-Tec Edelbrock aluminum vortech heads? I am doing a HiPerf. build and want some good power (around 500 HP) and am wondering which heads I should go with. The E-tec are lighter, but are aluminum heads recomended for a street driven vehicle? I was also going to have the heads ported, and have hi-perf. springs, etc. put on so would I see much of a power diff. between the cast vortech and the E-tec? Plus for the $500 price difference between the two, is it worth it? Thanks for your time.

 

Does anyone remember?

 

well, considering the fact that all F-bodies and corvettes from, definitely 1993 and up have aluminum heads, I dont really think there are any street issues. but I cant help you with the vortec's, dont know anything about them.

 

well I think I read somewhere the etecs are good for about 15 to 20 hp out of the box over cast vortecs.. I think they come with better springs too.. and srew in studs.. they are lighter and you can run alittle higher compresion with aluminum. depedning on the cam you get the reg vortecs are good to like .440 lift. for another 150 or so they are good up to .550 lift. they flow about 230 cfm @0.500.. I would go with the etecs.. Just my opinion... Kevin

 

None of these heads will make 500hp out of the box.

All will need extensive proffessional porting to get 500hp.

You should start with a better/ more powerfull head to start with.
It will be cheaper in the long run.

Look for a head like a brodix TRACK 1, or ported -8 , AFR 195cc,
Edelbrock Victor JR head.
you will need 270+ cfm intake flow to make 500 hp.

Brodix just released 2 new Vortec style heads
very interesting.

www.brodix.com

 

Car Craft made 500 HP with the E-Tec heads right out of the box, so I know they're capable of making 500 HP. Plus if someone was to have them ported, which I probably would, with aftermarket springs they could make even more power.
However I checked out the Brodix web site but coudln't find there new Vortec heads that they offer... I requested a catalog so maybe it will be in there.

 

jharms

I own E-Tec 170s and am building a 383 right now with them. 500hp is pretty lofty goal no matter what heads you got but is acheivable if the motor is built properly. So far you have only given one clue to the build, 383. What intake you gonna run and how much cam are you willing to tolerate. Your gonna have to go big on the bumpstick to churn out 500hp. 450hp is damn healthy and within reach of both 170cc heads plus you will have gobs of torque.

Anyway I will have a 383 with E-Tec 170s and a Superram sitting on a 383 with a Comp xr276hr.

As far as porting or hogging out the E-Tecs there is no point. They are excellent casting right out of the box on both the intake and exhaust side, there are no obstuctions or inperfections and the runner designs are great. Of course grinding out the casting flash and an overall smoothing is another story as this should be done on all heads as they come out of the box, simple sanding rolls only. Also they come with all the good parts out of the box: screw in studs, big spring seats, performace stainless valves, pretty decent springs, guid plates, heli coils, cnc port matched runner opening, bronze valve guides, and alluminum!

The vortecs are cool too. But your gonna end up dumping about 850$-1000$ in em to bring em up to spec. They need a full massage to make them usable on a race motor! Here is what another guy has into his heads.

SDPC Vortec heads - about $450 (I think), Manley valves (stock size) $100, screw in 3/8 studs $125, pocket port and/or bowl blend - $125, TPIS springs - $125 = aprox. $925. (Yea - I know that's a lot for a set of Vortec heads). per Mike Crews

Anyway about this crap of people trying to compare the base prices of these heads is BS. First off the only things these share in common is the fact that they bolt up to the new 8-bolt manifolds with tall ports. Anyone who has looked inside the intake ports of both heads can see they are different and the exhaust ports on the vortecs actually dont flow real well and need serious bowl work while the E-Tecs flow real good right out of the box.

Anyway thats my .02 cents, BTW I bought mine from Summit in Dec when they were on sale for 10% off, 899$.

 

Oh by the way they made 530hp with the E-tecs. But those were the E-tec 200 heads and the motor had an absolutely huge cam.

 

You're right, the cam was HUGE when they made the 530 HP. (It's really not feasible for me with that big of a cam...) To be honest I don't know much about cams, so I have really no clue what cam would make me 475 HP and still be streetable with my 2,500 stall converter... 450-475 HP is something I would definately be happy with, but I'm surprised you went with the E-Tec 170, I was leaning towards the 200's. I am going to use the Edelbrock RPM AirGap manifold, so would the 170's or 200's be best with that? (Or does that depend upon the cam being used?)The only reason I was thinking about not going with the E-Tec's is because they are aluminum. I heard for the street that aluminum is not good due to flex and cracking, etc.

 

Well you really need to settle on the cam and intake you will use as this will determine what size heads you will need. The 200s will need some pretty good lift in the cam as they flow eqaul to the 170s until about .400 and then they take off at .500 and .600. This means that with a big old cam you are gonna get into a single plane type intake or a Miniram III and turn your project into a higher rpm application. Sounds like you really need to do a little more homework on what it means to be streetable as far as cams are concerned. If you have a poor mismatch of parts no matter what the engine is you be very dissapointed.

 

http://www.brodix.com/onlinecatalog/...page15-16.html

Here is the brodix page that has the new Vortec/ fastburn style heads.

PN# fb1000 and fb 1001

 

Thanks for that link! But what makes thr Brodix better than the E-Tecs?

 

Oops I looked at the rest of the Brodix page and found that I can just compare the numbers between the two heads for myself!

 

F-BIRD'88

The Brodix product looks pretty nice. Any idea of the price? Springs and pockets are a bit small out of the box though. As far as the flow numbers go for the Brodix heads, the intake numbers look good for a 200cc head but the E-Tec 200 outflows them, but not by a huge marigin, and the E-Tec 170s are only a few cfm behind them and as far as the exhaust flow they seem to be lagging a bit more compared to the E-Tecs.

Anyway I would love to see a magazine do a shootout between all the new style 8-bolt tall runner heads.

Thanks for the link.

 

jharms


If I were gonna do carb I would do it like this.

E-Tec200
Super Victor Vortec
Comp XR288HR

Streetability and emissions would be a stretch but boy it sure would be fun on the big end!

 

The emissions thing is a mute point for me, Kansas doesn't test! But the streetability is an issue. I allready bought a new rearend with 3.23 gears, a little low now I wish I had gone higher, and a 2500 stall. Probably can't get to extreme of a cam with that combo so maybe I should swap out the gears for 3.70's...

 

I just bought the etec 200s and plan on finishing my motor this month. The rest of the car is a different story though. Anyway, I dont know what this is worth, but desktop dyno 2000 says about 500 hp with the 200s and a hot cam retarded 6 degrees with 1.6/1.5 rockers flat top pistons and headers. Also edelbrock claims 10.2 to 1 comp ratio with flat tops and 64cc chambers. How does this work if stock flat tops and stock 64cc heads produce 9.3. I dont think gaskets make that big of a difference, do they?

 

All I know is this. Gaskets DO make a difference in compression ratio's... The thicker the gasket the lower the compression, and vice-versa.

Now I have a new quandry. I was looking through my Jegs catalog, even though I prefer Summitt, and found some Aluminum Vortec heads, complete (I'm assuming made by GM) for only $589.99 It's on page 35 of the magazine along with there crate motors. Does anyone know about these heads? In the description it recomends that they're ported for all out comptetition but that it isn't necessary. Well heck, even if they don't flow as well as the E-Tec's if I spent the extra $200 to have them ported they're still $300 cheaper! I did notice that the combustion chamber is 62cc as opposed to E-Tec's 64cc. Again, does anyone know anything about these heads? Are they worth the price or should I spend the extra $$$ for the E-Tec's?

 

I just looked at them in the magazine and they appear to be the fastburn heads which are made by gm. I assume this because it says that they made 30 more horsepower when bolted onto a zz4 and the fastburn 385 which is a zz4 with fastburn heads makes 30 more hp. Anyway I they are supposed to be pretty good heads, but they do have 210 cc intake runners so that could require a decent cam. I think that due to the design of them they may not require as big of a cam as most aftermarket heads of that size though. I mean, they seem to work well on the fastburn 385 and it only has 208/221 duration and .474 .510 lift. Also they didnt seem to make anywhere near the power you want. They only made 385 hense the name but you could use a bit bigger cam and being a 383 ought to help.

Ben

 

Very cool. I would suggest lookin closer at that price tho. I think it may be 590 for a reason. Check to see if thats per head, or for a pair.
Matt

 

The "Aluminum Vortecs" in Jegs are the Fastburn heads. The price is per head. I bought them last July and put them on my 406 with the Super Victor Jr. intake. I did not get the car to the track since the upgrades but there is a definate improvement. The springs that come on them are good for .525 lift, they have screw in studs. When spring comes to the frozen Canadian prairies I will get it to the track then I will know if they are worth the money.

 

Wow, those were some quick answers! Thanks for the additional info. I think I will stick with the E-Tec's since that price was per head. Now if I can only find the right cam...

 

How do you plan to use the car? Alot of street time or only for fun?

 

not sure why aluminum or iron heads have much to do with street use. aluminum heads will allow you to run a higher compression ratio, be lighter, and if they're CNC'd you'll probly have a better chamber and runner design. What i've found is that the higher the numbers, the less streetable theyre gonna be. Big number 1: High lift springs means you need a big cam, which means you'll probably have streetability issues. Big number 2: The longer runners also make power at high rpms, which means less lower end torque, which also means streetability issues. Again, im not an expert here, this is just what i've learned on these boards, so if im wrong, somebody will say something. Shoot, they'll probly say something anyway. Those edelbrocks sound nice, i've also heard good things about pro lightnings. Do a search to see what people are running and how they like them. Good luck
Matt

 

Alot of street pounding fun, with some occasional track visits, just to have a time slip to boast about... That's why I'm looking for a cam that is streetable with this setup and yet makes around 475 HP. It should be plausible. I'm going to give compcams a call when I have the money to actually build this motor and see what they recomend, unless someone already has a suggestion or two.
I don't think the E-Tec's have high lift springs that would require a big cam, sure it'll need a fairly large cam, but not one so big that streetability (is that a word?) will be an issue. As for the longer runners, I'm okay with losing some low-end torque as long as the high end compensates for it. With a stroker I'll have low-end torque to spare.

 

To make 475hp and be streetable, you will need some really good heads such as AFR's, a roller cam, higher than 2500rpm stall and larger then 3.23 gears. Even this wil not be very streetable at all. It will be very expensive to build this with out power adders.

Forget the 475 hp thoughtand build a 375 hp streetable motor and add a 100hp shot of nitrous. You will be much happier in the end with your setup.

 

Well if you want really decent streetability and still a buch of power to go with it running the Comp XR282HR should do ya just dandy. You will need a decent amount of stall 2800rpm-3200rpm depending on brand of converter and a 3.73 gear. CHP made 490hp with a 383 and this cam and here is the big shocker, it didnt have AFR heads, ya right whatever!!! You dont need to fork out for AFRs inflated prices to make 475hp as many heads that sell for less will get you there with an at home clean up if you have the tools and brains to do it. What I mean is if your going to build your own motor you should be able to take some sanding rolls to your heads.

Anyway I hope it all works out for ya.

http://www.compcams.com/information/...HP0902-001.asp

 

the etec 200s are good to 575 lift. So it say on the papers you get with them

 

Just my thoughts . When going with larger cc runners , its not length thats adding the volume its diameter . The larger the cc the less volecity of air you are going to have at low lifts , to over come that you are going to need a higher lift cam . You will also need to keep volecty up by spinning the engine higher . But you have a 383 stroker engine , so you just lost alot more of your high rpm capabilties . I hope for your sake you opted for a the 6 inch rod in your engine . If not your asking alot of your crank ....
If i was in your position , i would not go any higher than a 200cc runner , i would probably look some where in the 190 , 195 cc . Also i would do some home work , call all the head companies you are interested in see if you can also get some swirl numbers . Because even if you have the flow , you might not have the fuel and air atomizeted to burn efficiently . All so you should get the heads clean them up a little bit , most importantly around the valve boss . I read a technicue of offsetting the valve boss just off center from the runner cause the air to swirl into the combustion chamber , thus increaseing the swirl number . After you have your flow numbers , then call the cam companies . not just one but atleast 3 different ones , see what they recomend , then see if each reccomendation is close to the same.... Most likly not . then do this call agian to all 3 the next day and see if they reccomend the same cams as the day before ... most likly not
Anyways thats my thoughts , i am in the research part of my 383 build .... I'll i got is a block , 6 inch rods and a crank . Another 30 hours or so of block work and im reading to clearance the rotating assembly ....


:lala: :lala:

 

Breadfan, I agree with a lot of what you said but I dont agree that he wouldnt want large intake runners BECAUSE he has a 383. I think it will depend on his cam choice, but a 383 will flow more air at lower rpms which will be able to keep more velocity at the same rpm in a larger runner than a similarly built 350.

Ben

 

Now why 6" rods? I figured with the larger crank, the 400 crank, that you wouldn't want to run a 6" rod because it would bang up into the head... (I'm still digesting the rest of the what you said and will address that when I'm not so tired.)

 

I dont feel that 6" rods are totaly necissary, but the reason for them is that it keeps the pressure on the piston more straight up and down instead of the angle of the rod pushing the piston into the side of the bore. Also, you can change pistons to accomodate for longer rods.

Ben

 

First you should run a 6 inch rod to one put your rod angle back to a more optimal level. A better leverage action by doing this . The second reason is more dwell time at tdc , less piston speed .
Thus making your engine more efficent .
As for the head runner cc's . I my self woulb't run bigger than a 200cc . remeber you can always port them bigger , but you can't shrink them . Just my thoughts.

 

So what good does that do me if they continually give me different answers to the same question? I'll definately look into the 6" rods.

 

It just proves that even the cam companies don't have this down to a science . Or that the person on the other end know as much as you or less . I reccomend looking into this site
www.davidvizard.com

 

That's a great website, thanks for the info.!

 

Well, i think its perfectly possible to do this, remain streetable, and still get good gas mileage even. It all depends on how much youre lookin to spend. Its perfectly possible to do well with a 400, good heads, a good cam, EFI, and a blower. Just build it solid, with a relatively high stall lockup converter and overdrive. Somebody on this board is making about 500 hp on street gas with 20 some odd MPG. I'd look it up but im busy studyin for midterms. Try a search on the power adder forum maybe. Good luck.
Matt

 

I'm not really looking to add a poweradder right now. (I'd want a blower if I was and that would set me back another $2,000 at least!) I want that option later though, so I'm going with all forged components. Would a steel cast crank handle the job of around 650 HP when it's all said and done?

 

Before you ask for any more advice you really need to figure out exactly what it is you want to do. Otherwise it is pointless for anyone to make recomendations for you.

 

I've been clear about what I want to do. I am wanting a 383 that will make around 475 HP, and am planning on forged pistons, a vortec Edelbrock Performer RPM AirGap intake, and E-Tec heads (probably the 200). [All the info from you guy's have helped me settle on the heads.] I just haven't decided on the cam, but that website, when I have all the numbers I need, will help me out with that decision. It's just a couple of years from now, maybe even 5, I would like the option of going with a power adder. (Honestly who wouldn't want that option?)

 

Well, if you want a power adder, and you're thinkin forced induction, you will probably want lower compression. Either dished pistons or bigger combustion chambers. Either way that means less power without the boost. Or you can go nitrous, which would make more sense if you want higher compression before the flattops. I honestly think there is no replacement for displacement, so unless you allready have the 383, why not a 400? More displacement means the motor isnt working as hard to make the same power. What kind of induction are you thinking of? Carb works with roots blowers, but turbos and centrifugal blowers tend to do better with EFI. Carb and EFI both work well with nitrous, but i think carb is cheaper if you go with a mild plate system. A power adder could also affect your choice in cam. You can get a nitrous cam, a blower cam, or a N/A cam. You still kind of need to elaborate on what RPM range you want this to make power in. Just out of curiosity, why do you like the Edelbrock heads over any of the others? Just my 2c
Matt

 

My reason for the 383 was because of how easily the 350/383 would drop into my firebird. Would a 400 have any problems? Would I still be able to use the brackets from my 305 with a 400 if I go with one? Plus, if a 400 would fit easily, couldn't I stroke it also? I'm going with Edelbrock because the E-Tec's are reasonably priced, especially for how good they are and they're aluminum! Plus the RPM Airgap is a very good intake. I agree, there is no replacement for displacement. You're right a blower would require a lower compression motor. I was thinking around 9-9.5 compression. Again that's much later down the line, either way I want to be able to use pump gas....
John

 

Well, a smallblock is a smallblock is a smallblock. With that said, there will be a few things you will have to consider whether youre dealing with a 302, 350, 383, 400 or anything in between. Are you going to use a one piece or two piece rear main seal? The 400 may also need a different balancer, but i think that the 383 will too. Aside from that, brackets should be the same. You'll want to dump the stock heads from the 400 and get a set of performance ones, but make sure you drill steam holes. Thats why 400s have a reputation for overheating, people forget to drill steam holes when they get 350 heads. I believe boring/stroking a 400 is perfectly possible, but has limitations. The boring factor is that 400s has siamesed cylinders, which limits the amount that they can be overbored without resleeving or using an aftermarket block. You can look at a 400 as an allready bored and stroked 350. To stroke the 400 will require a custom crank with a fair amount of machine work to make it fit. It'll probably be easier to stick with a 400 rather than stroke it, but the common stroke is to make a 427 smallblock. I believe thats what Lingenfelter uses on his Corvettes. If you shop around i think you can probably find good deals on a lot of heads. Again, i hear good things about pro lightings. Try a search. With aluminum heads, you may want 10.5:1 compression and just use nitrous down the road; you can use pump gas either way if you take it easy on the bottle. Just my 2c.
Matt

 

I didn't realize they considered a 400 a small block, so thanks for the info. I take it a 454 crank, due to the fact that it's a big block with probably a larger crank, won't work in the 400? I'm still thinking about a vortec setup though. Will these E-Tec's work or will they still need steam holes drilled in them? Also, what's with the prol ightnings? What makes them better than the E-tec's? Will I still want to go with 6" rods or will I want to go longer? Thanks for the help!
John

 

I think you'd be better off with 5.7" rods. With 6" rods, the piston pin height is only 1.125", thats not leaving much space between there and the top of the piston.

 

Mad max you should do a little more research before you assume a 5.7 is better than a 6 inch rod . some may say well the short rod reduses piston motion at bdc allowing to trap more air , but the increased piston to wall friction will offset any added air . the smaller rod will alos make a noiser engine , and wear out the bores alot faster if the engine is turned to any significant rpm .(383 or 400 cid) with the 6 inch rod the engine will run quieter . it will make more power due to the higher mechenical linkage efficiency , and better volmetric efficiency . This higher V.E is due to that the longer rod delays peak piston speed later in the stroke , when the intake is closer to make lift . With all these pros for the 6 inch rod the only reason i could see stay with the 5.7 would be price .

 

Anyone understand what he just said, other than the "make more power" and the "engine will be quieter" comments? (Both are good though, so don't get me wrong...)

 

You shoulda read my post before replying.

Why dont you do some research on problems of small ring packages and piston pins protruding into ring lands.

 

Couldn't a good machine shop take care of these problems? (I'm not familiar with them so I really don't know.) What other concerns do you see with a 6" rod?

 

Jeeesss , this isn't that large of a rod . The rings are not going to be going through the pin retainer . Its a 6 inch rod ... come on . How much higher do you think the piston pin boss is going to be . as far as rings go its reccomend to use the 1/16in rings a 383 that see's any rpm above 6k I don't fell like geting into some kinda pissing match here. I just think Jharms should have true information not opinions .