87WS6

iTrader: (1)

Today I was reading some stuff on the board about 305 Vs. 350 and that sort of thing. I was also reading about Willie's blown 305 setup on this site and so fourth. Willie got me thinking about his setup and what he has achieved. I have similar goals in mind. I will most likely take a much simpler approach to handling my car than he did as his solutions for cooling and other things are quite frankly beyond my abilities for the moment.

On the note of ability I wanted to look at crate engines alone. I know the more work you do yourself the more cash you save. I know that if I built an engine myself I would see much lower prices than any of these.

I have concluded that a 350 is cheaper to build than a 305. This really isn't to much of a dispute. However I have been doing some research on this particular subject.

My goal is to reach low 12 second 1/4 times on my car. I don't have to go N/A or forced induction. I do wish to avoid N20. I may have an irrational fear of it due to something I saw once and a few other horror stories. I do know that in the hands of the pros it's one of the cheapest solutions for power you can get, and is perfectly safe.

In the hands of the novice however it can spell doom. So I will not be using it as I am not a pro.

With that said I will share some of my $$$ to performance information I have uncovered. My research is from sites I have found from this site and message boards from users that have bought from these companies. Also they are all smog legal setups. If I didn't have to worry about being smog legal it would change alot of this information skewing it another direction.

Total engine only setup solutions and prices to achieve my goal. Please do not mention what I have to do to the rest of the car to make this happen. That is another subject and beyond the scope of this post. We are talking engine and power adders only here folks.

The possible powerplants. All smog legal and perfect for my application.

335C.I.D w/ATI Procharger 558 projected HP at the crank. $4600 Rebuild, stroker kit, and ATI Procharger (assuming some accuracy of the superchevy article.)

350C.I.D 326HP/383TQ $2300 //www.desertperformance.com

350C.I.D Unknown HP/TQ ratings from Enginefactory.com $4800 (Turnkey)

350C.I.D 357HP/416TQ $3400 http://www.sdpc2000.com

383C.I.D 328HP/410TQ $3000 http://www.desertperformance.com

383C.I.D 380HP/478TQ $3500 http://www.desertperformance.com

As you see the HP/TQ advantage Vs. Total dollars spent goes to the mighty 305 stroker/ATI Procharger combo. It's not the cheapest setup. But the best for the money I think out of what research I have done. Remember this is for crate setups alone. The 335 combo is not a crate motor but it is something I would have a machine shop do. I think installing a supercharger is easier than building an engine.

What I am looking for here is comments on my findings and for you guys to tell me what I have missed. I want to spend my hard earned dough on something that will acheive my goals in the long run for the least amount of cash at the greatest return. So if you guys have another non N20 solution for getting into the territory of kicking some LT1/LS1 *** than I want to hear it. Thanks for the advice.

87WS6

iTrader: (1)

I am still not sure what I am going to do here. I may go the longest route and swap in a 383 then add the Procharger to it.

I don't know. I've got plenty of time to decide this.

Any thoughts on the subject?

RB83L69

What induction?

You're not getting there N/A with TPI on it. Don't forget to factor the cost of a performance induction system to replace your TPI with. Depending on what you mean by "smog legal", your only alternative may be the SuperRam. By the time you replace that bottleneck with something that is capable of the power you're looking for, you may find that you have spent more the N/A way than you would with the blower.

Low 12s aren't much challenge with 400 HP at the crank, a somewhat lightened car, and traction. Obviously, 400 HP is essentially impossible to get out of a N/A smog legal 305 (magazine articles notwithstanding), but doable with a 350. The more cubes, the easier it is. Again, TPI will defeat that; its flow is so low that what you'll end up with is the same HP with a bigger motor as a smaller motor, you'll just get it at a lower RPM. HP is after all directly proprtional to flow (fuel/air molecules per minute), and very little else.

As far as buying an entire engine from somebody, I have no clue what would be the best, I would personally never do such a thing. But that's just me.

If I were doing what you say you want to do, I would start with a 400. I would not fool around with a small 4" bore. I would not use TPI (duh). If I could, I'd use a MiniRam, or an Accel Pro Ram, or a carb; but neither of those FI systems is completely smog legal since they have no EGR provision, and a carb would certainly not be emissions-legal either. With a bigger motor, I would not particularly worry about the bottom end, since that low of a HP level (1 HP per cu in) is not much of a strain on it (RPMs don't have to be very high). I would spend my money on FLOW: heads, induction, exhaust; and design the motor to to be all done by 6000 RPM.

Justin 87 GTA.

going low 12's isn't easyif you want it to last. It'll cost WAY more than that, if you wish to do the car right. The sb and blower idea is what i like, but that gets very expensive. you need to think about dfi, tuning, addtional miscellaneous stuff. You can build a blower motor w/ a used ATI and a crappy 350, do 12's and then break. I'd hate to see you put it all together and break it. As far as the NA motors you were mentioning, most of them don't have enough hp to do it either Unless you gut your car, put in great drag suspension,rims, tiers, rear, tranny etc. But you can see, that get's very expensive too. All I am saying is, you can go fast for a few $k, but it'll grenade easy. Unless you build a carburated non compu 383 for $4500. just my opinion. good luck. my car is costing me an arm and a leg to get there.

87WS6

iTrader: (1)

Well the reason I would use a crate engine is because I don't have the skills to do an engine rebuild myself. I am willing to learn to do it if that's what it takes.

And as far as smog legal, I want it to pass the sniffer test. I will probably use the miniram. A friend of mine has one and he was able to pass inspection with it. I know about the TPI's shortcommings. I will stick with FI. That's just my preference. I am sort of leaning twords the SDPC vortec TPI engine. It offers alot for the buck. I can change heads and maybe cam to get more out of it if needed.

I am interested in reliability but it's not going to be a daily driver. Not by any means. And I don't plan on hammering the thing. I know I need the gears, rear end and transmission work to make it good and reliable.

Justin 87 GTA.

I like the superam for emmsions because it has EGR.
Don't buy a crate motor that you're not completely happy with. You don't want to waste money later changing heads cam. If you want to make low 12's power, w/ 110mph you're ok. If you want to RUN low 12's, that's where it's gonna cost you a lot more, rear, supension, wheels, tranny etc. the motor will run you close to $6000 on the low end. That's w/ the blower, if you go cheapo, and get a used blower like i did and used miniram stuff.. THEN you'll spend more on cpu or dfi, fuel pump, gauges, etc, etc. I made 2 mistakes, i built what i didn't want at first, and i ran out of money, now i'm stuck, don't let that hapen to you. good luc hope this helps.
an N/A motor will cost you the same w/ minram to make that much power, considering all of the factors like inj, tb, intake, heads internals etc. good luc

87WS6

iTrader: (1)

Well that's good information. The SDPC Vortec motor would make me happy. I want in the 12's but it doesn't have to be low 12's. I may aim for that one day but not right now.

The Vortec 383 on www.desertperformance.com would do the job nicely for me as well. Either one of those should get me into the 13's right?

gtabadboy

One note... NEVER assume that teh price the setup cost will be the same when you end this project. Add at least 30% to whatever the base motor is for costs. Also, it takes some good money to reach teh 12s with a stout motor. Dont go cheap just to get these it will cost you more in teh end. IMO I would get a blown 355. Trying picking up a decnt crate or getting teh motor built with low compression pstons and a blower cam. Then I reccomend procharger. My motor in the sig runs 12s all motor but I dropped about 8k on motor, 500stall, 3k rear with brakes,1200 on headers and exhaust, couple hundred more on rims. Ands numerous tuning hours. I went with top quality except for the pro 1 heads -- AFRs were just too much.You get what you pay for these days!

Justin 87 GTA.

gta bad boy, is 100% right. I was trying to let you know that it would cost alot, w/out totally discouraging you. But for $6000 you should be able to get a nice zz4 or fast burn or something w/ a miniram and some DFI, and go high 12's all day. It does take a stout motor like he said, but they are. The 30% rule might apply, depending on how it all works when you get it to run. You may break something also, don't forget. But, the possibilities are endless, and w/out trying to be to harsh, you're not going low 12's w/ $6,000. But you should have a nice high 12 car, w/ potential to go quicker w/ other stuff like the suspension, weifht, tires, wheels, tranny rear, forced induction etc. And being that you said high 12's is your target now, then you're right on! Go for it! just be sure to check the guys w/ each of these crates, and see what the run, paying closer attention to mph. like i said they may run 13.4, w/ 108 mph. meaning that they are spinning the tires, and could run 12's . good luc

87WS6

iTrader: (1)

That's good advice. That is the stuff I need to know to get pointed in the right direction. I know that there is alot more to the project than the engine. I expect to pay alot of money over the next couple of years and devote a lot of time into this project.

As far as the cost. I figured I would spend alot more than I plan on spending. That's the way everything has been on this car so far anyway.

I appreciate the good advice.

Does any one know how much it would cost if I built the engine myself? I am not sure as to the going rate of machine work. I know engine kits run around $500 or so that have pistons and the other essentials needed to do the rebuild. I can get short blocks cheap.

I have never put an engine together before. But I have the time to learn. Would it be worth doing Vs. buying a crate motor? Or would I just be better off getting the crate?

Black363IROCZ

you could get high-mid 12s with a TPI 383. I'd bet about 70% of its potential though. It only takes about 350 RWHP to hit low 12s, so figure what you need to do from there. If you are looking to get a really nice racy street motor, I'd avoid TPI and go with aftermarket FI. in fact if I were you, I'd pickup a short block and mix and match components that you feel would work best for your setup. If you want a good, powerful daily driver, a low RPM, TPI induction motor like that 330/420 383 cid one from desertperformance.com would be great, making a lot of low end torque. If you just want a bad *** weekend toy, saturday night special/street thumper, I wouldn't bother with any of those engines. I'd get a 302, 363, 377, or 383 solid roller, high rpm motor with a mini-ram FI type unit and some very very good flowing heads and exhaust. coupled with a 3.73 rear and a 3500 stall and scrape at the 10s on drag radials. an engine like that peaking torque at 4500-5000 rpm pulls like a bat out of hell and will win a lot of races at the strip or on the street. Speaking from experience here.

Justin 87 GTA.

10's,..... huh,.....sounds expensive. I see he gave you a whole lot of ideas,..... i could tell you to get a big block, or a 406, or a supercharged 383, or whatever,...but what he's talking about is way out of your league. However, he is right about 350 rwhp. That's do-able and you'd definately pull some low 12's,... but again, if your car was setup. Anyway, just stick w/ the crate motor idea, make sure it;s a good one, nice intake, AND TUNING TUNING TUNING! you'll be high 12's easy.

Black363IROCZ

it is expensive, the question is how fast do you want to go? a blown 383 would have cost more than my 363 and wouldn't be much faster. I ran mid 11s on STREET tires so...

Justin 87 GTA.

read back, in his post he is a little more budget orientated, although he's willing to spend alot long term,....but he's not gonna lay out what that would cost now,.. not to mention, why would you build a weird expensive combo like that, when you can build a 355 or 383 cheaper per hp? just curious, not to slam you or anything, but unless you do all the engine work yourself, and even then, the parts are more. What is the point behind that?

Black363IROCZ

it's not weird, a 363 is a very popular and common racing motor, I wanted something like that, but streetable, expensive yes, but I've got mini-ram and vortecs. I put down over 450 to the wheels, I pull harder than any 355 or 383 on the highway and from a dig, it's just as fast (if not faster) than any other very well built all motor 383, a 355... well, that isn't enough, haven't gotten a comparable power level from them yet, if it was I would've done that. The rotating mass cost the same as any other forged crank rod, and domed piston setup lol. if I went carb'd with standard heads I would've been a lot cheaper, but I wanted vortecs (fast burns to be precise) because they were the best for volumetric efficiency. A 355 or a 383 couldn't give me the same results as a 363 could. I really want a 377, I might build one later on. lol, I'd also like a 302 SBC in a lighter '83 Z with a tall gear manual and 4.56 posi. Building an engine is always gonna be expensive, I initially wanted a mean, torque monster engine that was gonna make 500+ ft. lbs @ 3000 rpm, and could haul buttload, but I learned that taking advantage of gearing and making torque higher up in the power band is ultimately better for racing since I'm gonna be spending most of my time there when I'm drag racing, and I don't have too many traction issues. I can get out of the hole decently, and then pull like mad from 2500-7000 rpm, really fun on the highway. it's fun, if you've ever been in a Z06 you'd know what I'm talking about. I just wouldn't bother with a 383, that's my opinion no offense to anyone.

Justin 87 GTA.

I'm not taking any offense, don't worry, just dicussion. I just find it hard to belive that these motors pull harder or make more power, AND on top of that, they are more expensive. I'd guess if you put the same money into a 383 as you did a 363, the 383 would be faster. But correct me if I'm wrong.,.... just wish you had some #'s or something to support your claim. But, I do believe it's a nice setup,... any sbc is nice if built. Just don't turn him off from the 2 most popular small blocks of all time! There is a reason that they are so pupular. later

87WS6

iTrader: (1)

Well I think the 350 or the 383 are the way to go for me. Maybe down the road I will get a little wilder. As my knowledge improves so will my methods.

Justin 87 GTA.

definately 350/383

Air_Adam

Wanna hit 12's for cheap and have a good daily driver too?

Go with a big block

Like its been said previously, the more CI you have, the easier and cheaper it will be... and the motor will last longer too. A big block isn't too hard to put into a 3rdGen if you know what you're doing, so I'd suggest going with something like a 454 or a 502 (which BTW, can now be had with something similar to TPI or LT1 fuel injection, i forgot which)

Anyway, as far as drag goes, bigger is better. So I reccomend a big block like a 454 or a 502 Ram Jet. If you still wanna use a SBC then use a 400. its bigger than a 350 or 383, so will make more power with the same money.

wesilva

iTrader: (35)

Can you explain your shortblock combo to me? How did you arrive at 363 CI. 3.25" crank in a 4.165" bore? 3.65" crank in a 4.030" bore?

Black363IROCZ

it's a 4.030" x 3.562" bore x stroke speedomotive kit. where did you get your numbers from???

wesilva

iTrader: (35)

Just pure guessing. I didn't do any math. Hot Rod Magazine came out with an article titled something like "25 new ways to build a small block Chevy. Those figures were two combinations out of that article but to be honest I was too lazy to come up with the actual displacement. I just arbitrarily threw those out there.

CHEVY_EATER

I don't think it should be that ahrd to run low 12's with a well built 350 or 400 small block. A 400 small block with a nice set of heads, I like Edelbrock myself, good intake, and a custom spec cam should do it. Just a Edelbrock RPM heads and intake with even an Edelbrock cam should do it right? I'm more familiar with Ford's but my friendhas all the Edelbrock stuff on his stock bottom end 30 and ran a 12.9@111 with steet tires in a heavy 95 GT. A 400 with say 3.73 gears, 3000 stall, good tranny, and suspension mods should do it right? A kid around here rana 12.4@110 with a home built 400 small block that had TFS heads, a cheap cam, and a tunnel ram that was too much really. All this in a lighter S10 though.

ctandc

Same old argument.

IF you want to take the TIME And LEARN how to burn your own chips and invest about $350 to get all the stuff to do it low 12's with the LOWLY TPI induction is not hard.

You're going to want to concentrate on suspension mods for good traction before anything.

IF you're starting from scratch, and don't already have TPI, then buying a Stealth Ram is cheaper $ vs. HP, that's IF you don't have TPI NOW.

Easiest way?

Find a good 400 core... $300
A good machine shop will rebuild the shortblock for you with good parts for $800-1200, just depends on who and where.
Cam kit $200
Pro Top line heads Vortec style castings $400 bare
Another $75 or so to drill steam holes in the heads for the 400 app
Another $250-300 to assemble the heads.
$400 Vortec TPI intake
$400 aftermarket runners
Port plenum, etc yourself
$400 58mm throttle body
$200 for various parts/ bolts etc


You're still under $4000 for the engine, say $4500 on the HIGH SIDE w/ the tuning equipment etc etc With a DECENT cam, and a DECENT tune, there's NO WAY this engine won't put out 450 HP / 450 or HIGHER ft/lbs of torque to the flywheel.

Say 20 percent drivetrain loss with an auto that's 360 to the rear wheels.

Work on traction and rear suspension and launch, and if that thing doesn't run low 12's IF NOT 11's, you're probably driving it in reverse.

PLUS, you'll get good enough gas mpg and part throttle driveability in ALL Weather conditions, you'll find yourself driving it ALL The time.

Cheaper to go to carb? Sure....but wait...

A good NEW carb ( to be fair in the comparison ) is $300
Vortec carb intake $175
Air cleaner $40
Misc BS you will need to convert $40

So COUNTING The PROM burning stuff, I'll be generous and say you'll save $700 over the Vortec TPI setup.

IF you drive the thing, you'll make that up in gas money in no time at all.


But hey that's just me...

Or go ask Mike Crew, his Vortec / TPI post is still going strong...and his is a 383 w/ the GM heads and he runs right at 12 FLAT.....

Just my lowly 2 cents


And those prices are on the high side, and paying someone else to screw the motor together.


HTH

87WS6

iTrader: (1)

Well I think I am going to go with a crate engine this time. I have quite a bit of the cash saved up now. I don't have confidence in my abilities to assemble and engine at this point. It is something I would like to do in the future though.

92 305 BIRD

ya a 350 and 383 sound good but a 302 has more than a 350 and mod a 302 and it will kill a 383

Justin 87 GTA.

money money money, who runds them? nobody. too expensive, i can't believe i have to say it again, 350/383 crate, for budget oriented people, best way to go! I could build many motors that are better than the crates if funds were unlimited!