I was looking at the paper today and I found a Pontiac 350 with GTO heads, carb to oil pan, was running when pulled for $350

 

no thanks, to much money for a boat anchor

 

Does it suck that much?

 

small bore long stroke and it is a pontiac motor. $$$$ to get it runnin fast. Not to mention it is like a $1000 motor swap.

 

All these chebby lovers shoving the hating on Poncho mills , anyway, verify it is a 350, should be cast on block. What # heads? Might be able to buy it & part it out for more. Score a 400 block, get new pistons, swap everything else over, there's a killer mill :rockon:

 

With a little bit of work(yeah and some extra money). A typically built 350(non FI) would get it's *** handed to it opn the street. A poncho 350 can easily make 400hp and well over 500 lb/ft with the right heads and cam.

Do some reading on the engines first.

 

With a $800 set of heads a chebbie 350 can make 400 hp. Fine me a set of heads for a pontiac for that. And add in 1000 for motor mounts and headers to fit a 3rd gen. and what ever it costs for a BOP tranny. There is not really a good reason to put a poncho motor into a 3rd gen when chevy motors are so cheap pleanyiful and bolt right in.

 

Not to argue but, both Spotts Performance and SD Performance sell ported and complete 6X heads for $900. Why do think it will cost $1000 ANYBODY can drill a thirdgen crossmember to use stock pontiac mounts you don't need fancy adaptors but your right the headers will set you back some .

 

Check out chiefmanyhorses.com. Its all poncho performance and they sell cheap mounts and headers to swap right into ur third gen. I'm building a stock 400 and turning it into one of their 467 motors. Its all in what you want out of your car. Pontiacs are great torque motors. Stock they had around 350 FT TQ. But granted all performance parts are spendy for ponchos but its always worth it. Cause not only did u not follow what everyone else does by swapin in a plentiful bowtie but u have a great torque monster as well. Deffinatly orignal and no one will look the other way when u pop your hood.

Even though its a 350 all you have to do is bore it and put a 400 crank in and you have a poncho 400 or bore it out more and have a 455 crank mains ground down and you can have a 455. The bueatiful thing about pontiac is its all the same block from 302-455. just different bore and stokes were used. Have fun and check out that website!!!

I say go for it and dont look back!!!

 

Fbirdta878787, it's good to hear that your going to run a pontiac motor in your car
Just few things about turning a 350 into a 400. A 350 pontiac is to a 400 pontiac as a 305 chevy is to a 350 chevy, they allready have the same strokes.
You can't bore a 350 out to a 400 but you can bore a 389 out to a 400.
The pontiac 326, 350, 389, and 400 already share the same 3.75" crank, so switching the crank between motors is pointless unless your upgradeing to a N or an ARMASTEEL crank for strength.
So if you allready had a 350 with a good crank and rods, you could go find a good 400 block and swap the 350 rods and crank into it along with a set of 400 pistons, then you would have a 400.

 

Those engines are powerful but weak.
The block's lifter valley cam bore area has very little supporting strength, and if your going to invest in a used motor that you want to makegobs of power with. I would carefully inspect, tear down, and rebuild it completely.
Years ago the man who taught me all about engines (Crazy Horse loudpipes.com)told me he saw one of those engines broken in two right down the middle.
I think your better with a buick engine anyway........in any car.

 

The lifter bores that snap off in pontiacs only really happen when your running a really nasty solid roller cam, but even then they have bore braces that have been proven to work in strengthining the block in the 2 bad areas. The pontiac blocks that split down the middle that you speak of are the 421 - 455 blocks with the 3.25" mains (400 and smaller pontiacs mostly have 3.00" or smaller mains) that are makeing extreme HP and are running high RPMS, the 3.00" main blocks (as in a 350) dont have this problem beacause they have a little more meat in the bottom end.
For a street motor the lifter bore and lower block problems are nothing to worry about, and if they do worry you both problems have a fix.

 

Buicks are also good.

 

Hey thanks SOLID for clarifying that. I knew I was wrong somewhere in there.

I plan on building the motor that summit racing did. Check out there Street & Strip section on their website for th build up. Its really mild, but I figure thats plenty for a starter drag car motor.

 

I don't know how engine prices are in your part of the country, but here in GA at Pull-A-Part you can easily find any BOP or Cadillac engine you want, and they're a little over $100 complete. Find a block you want, but it has lousy heads? Swap the heads from another one, same $100. I have bought a 73 Pontiac 455 for my 87 TA there like that (actually just bought the short block for $50, I'm building it and going with Edelbrock heads), and two Cadillac 500s for other projects. The Cad 500s shouldn't be overlooked either; stock a 71 Eldorado 500 made 365 HP and 535 torque, and it takes very little to make 450-500hp and near 600 torque...all out of a relatively compact engine that weighs 75 lbs less than a big block Chevy, 100lbs less with an aluminum intake! The last 500 we got had a fresh valve job and all new valvetrain parts, and probably only really needs a timing set to be a strong runner (we're going through it just to be sure). However you go, I'd get the most cubes you can! I've always been a small block Chevy guy, but there ARE other engines that can do as much or more (esp if you're looking for torque) for the same or less $$$...without having the same thing as everyone else!
Oh yeah, BOP transmissions (TH350 or Th400) are usually cheaper than Chevy ones...Pull-A-Part charges $50, and there are TONS of them there! Cheap to rebuild, too.

 

I was told if you find the 500 caddy motor and put 472 caddy heads on it it bumps up the compression a bit but not too radical.

 

All 472 and 500 engines through 73 or so have 76cc (small chamber) heads, so within those years there would be no advantage. The 74-up low compression 472s and 500s have 120cc heads; put the earlier 76cc heads on them and you have about 12:1 compression, but lousy quench. It'll work, but isn't really recommended, and won't run on pump gas well at all.

 

what he said

 

Forget that idea.

 

Maybe what you heard was about swapping 96cc 425 Caddy heads onto a 500. That's a good hotrod way to get some power, but it's not really optimal because of quench. I'm a Caddy novice, but check out www.cowboyseven.us for really good Caddy Big Block Tech.

 

Maximum Torque Specialties is another good source of info. Personally, I'd just stick with the older 76cc heads with a valve upgrade (2.19/1.84) unless you have the cash for the new Bulldog aluminum heads.

 

It's hard to remember now, but the '82 (which was supposed to be the '81, launched in '80) was supposed to have the Pontiac 301 in the T/A, and the optional Turbo in the top-dog model.

Pontiac tanked when the Shah left town, they shut down B-Car production and closed the V8 engine line. So much for that idea. Formula and HO guys at least got the hood.

A Pontiac 400 is sweet in a thirdgen, especially if you are starting with an earlier car that doesn't have or need the complex TPI/TBI electronics.

Blocks don't fail until the 6-700 hp range, and only then under rare circumstances. Even a 350 can be built nicely, but considering how cheap a 400 core is (less than a comparable Chevy, for example) it's an easy swap when you get with the Chief-Of-Many-Horses guys. Shoot, just buying the Edelbrock kit (heads/cam/intake/etc.) and doing a solid TRW rebuild on the bottom end is the easiest 410-425 hp you ever did. With the alloy heads and intake, and tube headers, the weight is nearly a wash with the stock SBC with iron heads, intake and manifolds.

BOP 200 R4's can be built easily to withstand even hard street use, (GN guys are routinely hitting them harder and living to tell) and better yet, usually don't require a gear swap in the rear axle because of the 3.06 low and the assload of torque in the 400 Pontiac. I wouldn't put any big bets on the long term life of a typical F-Car posi if there was any kind of decent tire under it; narrowing a late rear end, or scoring a Currie 9" would be a lot better for longevity.

The rest is just shadetree engineering, nothing out of the ordinary. F's were designed in the late '70s, so the electronics aren't that hard to figure out. And when you hit the cruise night, the strokes will never know what hit 'em.

 

Im considering stroking a 455 pontiac and putting it in my 84 Z28 thats going to be my next project when the 91 is done. I think it would be different and since chief crazy horse made it easy with the mounts http://gallery.bcentral.com/Gallery/...58&Dept=198646 and the headers for third gens it would be a clean install. I just think it would get alot of attention.

 

 

you guys remember that hot rod build of that caddy 500 they did a few years back...

the did a junkyard buildup of a 500 motor and did the head swap like you guys mentioned, turbo 400 and they put it in a CHEVETTE..ran mid 11's on a stock motor hahahhaa

 

Most of the parts for my 500 Caddy buildup just came in Friday, just waiting on the pistons (custom forged) and pins now. Hopefully within about six weeks, I'll be able to post chassis dyno and 1/4 mile results of a built Caddy motor in a Chevy Dually! Talk about a Hemi eater!

 

I am thinking about building a 500 with 368 heads on it. Thats right I am going to use the 8-6-4 heads complete with the cylinder deactivation system. Top it with the port FI intake, a TBI throttle body (minus injectors). I would use the TH 400 and drop to 3.08 gears. That way I could have 370+Hp, 550 Ft/lbs and almost 20 mpg when my foot is off it.

 

some good info here, and a few wild misconceptions. Pontiac engines are excellent street performance pieces, especially the 400s, which are plentiful still.

For some excellent Pontiac heads, check out Kauffman Racing. Better than Edelbrocks, they have modern chambers and spark plug locations, and better ports.

Split blocks are not going to happen unless you are pushing over 800 hp. That's a wives tale. Lifter galley braces are available everywhere, but are also only a problem on very aggressive cams.

Buick Motors are also good, better bore-stroke ration and better bottom end pieces stock, but the valve sizes are a bit small, and the heads are not as good as the Pontiac.

Caddy motors are excellent, very light for the swept area, valves are a little smallish too, but the rocker design sucks. Aftermarket shaft rockers solve this easily. Probably the best potential for the $$

2004r Trannies came with BOP patterns, and well built ones run 8's in Buick Turbos, and still run on the street.

Most people who always suggest running SBC do so because they know nothing else. It is the cheaper, simpler way to go. Life is not always about cheaper and simpler.

Troy
So Cal

 

Most of the 4-6-8 setups got replaced with conventional heads due to lots of problems, so I'd be careful. Supposedly the mechanics of the system were brilliant, but the electronics of the day weren't up to snuff. Maybe that can be overcome. Interestingly enough, GM is going to be offering a similar system on many of its new cars, and supposedly (according to a very knowledgable, trusted source at GM) its seamless in its operation.