Ok guys, first let me set the scene. I'm 18, in high school, and working full time so installing it myself is not gonna happen. Now all I need is a friendly reference to a reliable place to have an LS1 dropped in, similar to hawks in opperation but perhaps a little closer to home.
Any help is much appreciated.

 

Wait till you have the time, money, and ability to install it yourself. You definitely won't have the money right now to have someone install it for you if you're paying for it by yourself.

 

I think you have a problem. I had to drive my car down from New York to South Carolina to Hawks. I then flew back to NY and back down when when the car was done. The good news is Bruce will drop off and pick up at the Greenville S.C. airport

 

what are they even charging for these installations now days? use to be $2,000 back in the day but that was drop of car and engine, recieve and turn key.

 

Not for a LS1 swap!! Too many mods need to be done for a cheap price. The biggest problem is finding someone that can do it right in the first place. As for price it's almost one of those deals... If you have to ask you can't afford it.

 

if someone offered me 2k to install a LS1, id tell my boss im taking off all my sick days right now.. lol.

its not hard. i dont know why people have this impression that its a daunting task. perhaps because it looks diffrent? doesnt have a carb?

with parts anyone could have a LS1 running in a thirdgen in a day.... give them another couple days to finish up details, and thats it.

of course, thats assuming you have parts.

 

yeah thats assuming people have all the parts.. such as a notched K member.. all the modded air lines, fuel system parts, motor and tranny mounts.. then theres the exhaust fabrication..

then the wiring... you completed all the wiring in less than 1 day.?


definately not a 1 day job even with all the parts you need.

people think that since they have a complete LS1 with harness, that the swap is easy.. no..

would make it easier without the A/C.. and if you had a complete, ready to hook up wiring harness that was already spliced into the thirdgen harness. then all you would need to do is set the motor mounts, and tranny cross member, and fab up an exhaust, and run some fuel lines.

definatley a week long job with all parts.. that is if you want to do it right.

this scenario is based on a single person doing this..

 

yes i could do all the wiring in one day. does it really take 12 hours to do about 12 wires? working at a relaxed pace, you could still get it wired in one day... add in the fuel system, and like i said "could have a LS1 running in a thirdgen in a day"

would it be done? no.

but the "hard" part is over...




you know what? ***** it. perhaps im the only person on this whole damn board that thinks something is easy because the work isnt hard.... that has to be the case... since anytime the subject comes up, everyone tells me how phucking hard it is, even thought i JUST DID IT.. sometimes the night before they tell me how hard it is...

perhaps im just that phucking amazing..

***** it.

a LS1 swap is hard.. dont even try it yourself.. throw money at hawks until it runs...

oh, and theres a billion wires

and it costs twenty thousand dollars

ohh, ohh, and a 400 is a better choice for a street car because you'll get lower ETs after changing every single damn part in the drivetrain compared to a stock LS1...


and dont forget, everyone here that posts about doing it has actually done it, so you can trust whats said about it 100%.....


























if anyone has some real phucking questions about LS1 swaps, PM me.. if i donno the answer, i'll tell you who to ask... in the meantime, my real advice is: "get your advice somwhere else"

 

Its not hard, your just egotistical. After helping two-three people with lt1 swaps, which is far easier to install. I still couldn't do everything in a single day. I could do the wiring in one day, but it wouldn't look pretty. Just becase you spliced 12 wires won't mean they will be shooting around everywhere. You also have to do the power steering and A/C. Some people might need to keep smog. I have often times said "OH ****! I forgot something!" had to run to the store and buy it or order it online, it takes time. Looking back, I could do the entire lt1 swap, from coolant to driveshaft in four days, IF I had all the parts available to me and I work fast!

 

stock LS1 PS lines work... but yea... i know the hard part is remembering all the little parts.

thats why theres the header "if i had the parts"


i dont think im being egotistical... i think you, having never done a LS1 swap before, could crank the car up at the end of the day... and finish it up the following day.

 

btw, if you cant figure out the sarcasm in my rant 2 posts above... then i ment it and i hate you.

 

, I know ya better than that. I know someone here in town who did a LS1 swap in his thirdgen, he is runnign 11's with a 150 shot. Took this guy over 2 months to get it running. Now these people being first timers, its not gonna happen in one week. The same for a LT1. Me and you, having previous experience can shorten that time span, but its seriously not gonna happen within 1-2 days. 4 I would say minimum.

 

this was the first EFI swap i ever did....


anyhooo


im not going back to edit it, but i apologize.. its not like me to just go off like that..


i didnt get to bed until 5:30 this morning... and im really grouchy... not like me at all.

 

you can get a ls1 or any engine you want install at high performance salvage in san antonio texas. phone number in white pages.

 

Mr Dude sure doesnt know what he is doing. He should have had it driveable this week, but he was too chickin to fix it and drive it to FLA. He just wanted to drive mine, since its nice inside and his is crap..lol.

Its not that difficult to swap, I was surpised at it. If I had a 1st gen Camaro, I would consider doing it too. LS1's are just so much better than small chevy's. I guess if you arent too knowledgeable about cars, then it would take you a while. if you are afraid of wiring or just doing something then it will take longer. Still some people should never be allowed to have a wrench in thier hands, I usually end up fixing what they mess with.

Cant wait to see it run Travis.

 

lol...

thanks, you answered my question perfectly. so i suppose the $1,500 for the swap at most shops out here isn't bad then? hmm.

 

I'd say $1500 for labor alone is a pretty good deal, overall. I've gotten prices of anywhere from $1500 to $3000, depending on how much customizing you want to do, with $2k still being about average. (Assuming a stock engine that won't require tuning or extra parts).

 

MrDude_1,

You OBVIOUSLY have some issues you need to deal with. Contrary to your huge ego, you are NOT the biggest expert on LS1 swaps on these boards, I don't care if you have finished your swap or not.

Yes, I agree with you on one thing - swapping a STOCK LS1 into a 3rd gen is not that difficult anymore. The necessary motor moutns and trans crossmembers are readily available for those who aren't good at fabrication, and with a stock engine there is no need to replace the rest of the drivetrain or exhaust (beyond the y-pipe).

But MOST of us do NOT want a "stock" LS1 simply shoved into a third gen engine bay. We want POWER - and lots of it! That means things are going to get complicated and expensive really quickly. Even on a 346ci LS1, the minute you do a medium to big cam and heads, you will need to start looking at upgrading the rest of your drivetrain, and possibly exhaust. Even with a STOCK LS1, you should be upgrading your brakes and suspension - there is a days work just in brakes, suspension, and exhaust alone. Sure, you might get an LS1 "running" in a day, but there will be at least a few more days to finish the rest of the stuff.

ALso, many of us want the "factory install" look - not for it to look like someone dropped a new engine into an old car. If you are building a trailer queen race car, than you've got to build the engine. If you are building a daily driver, then you want to be PROUD of how it looks. Looks take time (and money) as well.


I kind of took your post personally - regardless of your "apology" for being "grouchy." I am having most of my work done at Hawks, I had SpearTech do my custom wiring harness (that will fully comply with California emissions requirements, by the way), I am spending over $20k on my car, I'm going with a 402ci LS2 engine, and I have not "completed" my project yet........ seems like every one of your points applies to me. I don't know if that was intentional or not (since I see your name on Ls1tech.com a lot as well), but it sure seems like a big coincidence!


I think your real problem, like so many people on these forums, is that you are comparing APPLES to ORANGES. You did one of the MOST BASIC SWAPS that anyone doing an LS1 conversion can do. Of COURSE it seemed easy! You had motor mounts, trans crossmember, perhaps a little custom fitting, and some wiring (at which you are obviously experienced and proficient), and then just drop in your engine and turn the key. MOST of us are doing MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more to our cars than you did. You swapped in the "apple," while most of us are doing "oranges."

Here is MY swap, in comparison to yours:

Goal: A 10 second car, that will be fully CALIFORNIA C.A.R.B./emissions legal for when I move to San Diego later this year.

The following is a list of parts and APPROXIMATE costs:

$1300 1989 Firebird Formula 350 (TPI) with 156k miles
$3000 for body restoration and paint
$6500 for custom-built 402ci LS2 stroker with forged internals, totally ready for adding forced induction at a later date
$1100 T56 trans with 21k miles
$600 McLeod Street Twin Clutch with less than 2k miles and only a few passes on it
$1600 Brand new Moser 9" with 35 spline axles and 4.10 gears (yes I got an excellent deal through patience)
$1500 Chassis, brake, and suspension upgrades
$1200 17x11 rear and 17x9.5 wheels, complete with new tires
$475 Ported Stage 1.5 heads (bought these for the LS1 that I was GOING to put in originally, may upgrade to bigger heads now)
$730 Cam kit with TR224/224 112lsa, springs, retainers, pushrods (again, I will likely upgrade to a bigger cam now for the LS2)
$125 Jantzer Ported Throttlebody
$375 Coated PaceSetter Longtube headers (will probably have to go with Hawks custom LT header @ approx. $700-800, and then go Turbo instead when I hit CA)
$330 Custom Chromoly 3" driveshaft from APE
$950 3rd Gen Specific LSx Swap parts (tubular k-member/a-arms, trans crossmember, speedo converter, vats box, etc)
$750 SpearTech Custom Wiring Harness
$400 Misc gaskets, bolts, etc
$300 4th Gen seats (mint condition, front and rear)
$100 4th Gen M6 center console
$600 4th Gen gas tank, 4th gen fuel lines, and hi-flo fuel pump
$500+ for dyno tuning to make it all play well together!

If you can GUARANTEE that you can swap all of that onto my car in less then four days for a total of $2k, than I will consider firing Bruce Hawkins and hire you instead!! Hell, it took a half a day just to ASSEMBLE the rear end!! A BASIC swap - a see about 3-4 days absolute minimum. Most swaps are going to take MUCH longer!

Like I said - you are talking apples while most of us are talking oranges. I could have stuffed the stock LS1/T56 into my car and left it like it was - but it would have looked like crap, would not have given me the performance or reliability or streetability I am looking for, and I would NOT have been happy. Hell, for the cost of the LS1 engine and trans I bought, I could have rebuilt the TPI engine (with EFI OR a big carb!) to match the speed of a stock LS1 for 1/4 mile race purposes, and had more low-end torque around town for pure driving pleasure!!

Just because my swap isn't done, doesn't mean I (or certain others) don't know as much RELIABLE AND ACCURATE information on swapping an LS1 as yourself. Sounds to me like you took the easy way out for bragging rights, and now want to be some kind of resident expert just because you finished quickly.

 

You guys are funny.

You wouldn't know it from his posts, but MrDude had help. His first stab at his wiring map was a real mess, a few generous LS1tech.com people helped him fix it. I didn't help a bit for two reasons:

1.) He was going to write it up into a How-To, and...

2.) I noticed on his T56 how-to thread he kind of forgets to mention where he got his info, and makes it sound like it's all originally his. Little tiny 'thanks to the thirdgen.org guys' at the bottom of the page.

Now we see him posting about how marvelous he is, take a bow for the magnificent 1 day swap, but again he forgets to mention he had help early on...and he needed lots of it.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259981

89FormulaLS1, the other guy who dropped major cash having his swap done for him got thrashed here too. Mostly from people who can barely pick up a wrench. It's like when my neighbor's little Poodle barks at my Chow/Retriever mix...just noise.

 

So here's the pecking order:

89FormulaLS1 trashes stock engine guys for not going bigger, because he went w/ a 402.

MrDude trashes 89Formula and others who have a shop do their swap, because he did it himself.

Kevinc trashes MrDude for begging for help on ls1tech and here, because he digested a Helms and figured out all but the cyl head air bleed by himself.

Kevinc trashes MrDude again for taking aforementioned help he received and passing it off as his own "expertise".

Now...who out-did me and wants to take a shot?

 

Holy crapballs, you spent $750 on a wiring harness!!!!! I wish you would have called me, I'd love to make $750 for throwing together $25 worth of wires and connectors.

 

What needs to be done to make it CA emissions compliant? I'm assuming sensors and what not? Where did you get a VATS box? Is it just the 4th gen VATS box? Are you changing your key cylinder out too?

I'm in your boat, planning on doing it, and doing it clean (and fixing up some body issues). I'm gonna do the work myself, most of it, with help from friends if necessary. I'm planning a budget of about $12K, I want tubular k-member and tubular a-arms. I will eventually get LTs and need a plug and play exhaust system to go back and forth between LTs and stock manifolds. Also the little things will probably nitpick that budget down to < $0.

I'm in CA and contemplating this swap, whilst adding up the costs of the misc parts (and writing down what I need to do). I'll eventually have to pick up a Helm manual for a 4th gen for an 02 to work out all the wiring (looking to pick up an 02 drivetrain, gas tank, fuel lines, and *** knows what else).

I'll be doing some of what you said, doing a head port, TR224 cam kit, though I'm not sure if I should do it before going to the referee or not.

If you can give me the gory details on what you needed to do or did to make the car (and wiring harness) CA smog compliant, that would be great!

Thanks much!

 

IMHO, I wouldn't buy a VATS box. I would just buy HPTuners and change the VATS option from Serial to PWM, or off all together if you don't already have VATS. HPTuners is pricey, but when you factor in O2 sims, CAGS elimiator, VATS, and all the other things you won't need because they can be programmed out, plus the flexibility of changing whatever else you need (i.e. tuning, speedometer, etc...) its more that worth it.

 

kevinc - I am NOT trashing stock LS1 swaps in any way, shape, manner, or form!!! I have a lot of respect for stock LS1s. For someone looking for moderate power and great gas mileage, or for a "modder" on a budget, who eventually wants to continue upgrading and modding for better performance, gas mileage, etc., I think the stock LS1 is DEFINITELY the way to go!!

The only thing I was criticizing was MrDude's arrogance and attitude, based on a number of posts he has made on both forums. He makes it sound so simple, yet he only did the simplest of swaps. There is NOTHING WRONG with a "simple" swap - until you start calling other people stupid for doing something more than you did yourself. I hope that clears it up.

If I may redo your pecking order:


MrDude trashes 89Formula and others who have a shop do their swap, because he did it himself.

MrDude trashes anyone who does more than a stock LS1 swap, ridiculing the necessity for upgrading engine internals, rear ends, and other components

89FormulaLS1 trashes MrDude for trashing everyone else and calling them "stupid" on multiple posts and threads

89FormulaLS1 trashes MrDude again for criticizing the buildup of LSx series engine swaps that consists of anything more than he did himself

Kevinc trashes MrDude for begging for help on ls1tech and here, because he digested a Helms and figured out all but the cyl head air bleed by himself.

Kevinc trashes MrDude again for taking aforementioned help he received and passing it off as his own "expertise".

 

You are missing the point of the VATS box - it is NOT to "eliminate" VATS, it is to ALLOW YOU TO KEEP IT!!

By putting in the Vats box under your dash, you can simply and quickly disconnect it and put it in your pocket. Now it serves the same purpose as the chip on the original 3rd gen VATS key - sends the right signal to the computer to make it work when installed, but keeps the car from starting when you take it out.

Considering that car theft is one of the top crimes in San Diego (where I will soon be moving), AND that Camaros/Firebirds are among the most popular to steal, I CHOSE to keep the VATS option. I did NOT want it programmed out or bypassed!!

For those who don't wish to keep VATS, however, it is definitely better to just program it out with tuning software.

 

I think I'm the other guy! I did't pay any mind, Just a cranky kid in need of a nap.
I was building and installing engines long before most of you guys were born. When you get a little older (49) you find that no one gives a rat's a$$ who built what. It' just a toy! When you think about it a hotrod will cost you major time or major money. At this point in my life I have more money than time. I didn't want to be another middle aged guy with a project in the garage that he never gets around to finishing.
That said... I really do wish all of you the best, even MR Dude.
Tom
P.S. If anybody cares, I did the interior myself and next week I will be replacing the complete front end.( got those spohn A arms).

 

PM me, and I'll give you the details. I think this thread has been hijacked enough from it's original question. But like I said, PM me and I'll be happy to share what I know about passing CA requirements - there is actually quite a bit to it!!

 

Well thanx for all the help guys. No, I'm just kiddin, but I'm probly gonna call hawks and consider makin the drive. It's a pain but as mentioned above ls1 is the best way for power and gas milage, plus I keep seein engine and tranny pakages from 04 GTOs with 1k on them. The question I have now is, how hard is it to make my auto a t56?

 

No problem for Hawk's. Bruce changed mine from 700R4 auto to T56 six speed

 

Great. I hope you realize that the wiring changed every year or two in each of the third gens, and that you can't just tie into the dash harness with the stock 4th gen harness - you've got to integrate ALL of the sensors from the engine all the way back to the 4th gen emissions compliant gas tank.

Even at a low rate of $40/hour labor, I would say you'd easily have at least $750 in RESEARCH TIME, labor, and parts.

Making a wiring harness work to just "run" the engine may be easy. Making a fully emissions compliant (especially California) car takes a lot more than "$25 worth of wires and connectors." Plus, my SpearTech harness does not LOOK like it has been modified - it is very professionally done and looks Factory-built. I would NOT put a $25 home-spliced **** looking job into my car just to save a couple of bucks.

 

Auto to Manual is quite common. Hawks can do it quickly and easily.

 

lol

dammit, i wish i caught this thread sooner.. i was in daytona...

when i wake up, i'll reply more but in a nutshell:

i have no prob with working on any internal part of the ls1.
or any of the drivetrain.

been too damn busy to write up any tech anything.. i get 5mins of time here and there.. but not enough to finish anything big

no, i didnt do any of the emissions stuff, and no my car doesnt look like i just thru it in there.. i pay good attention to detail, no matter if its somthing big like the fuel system, or as simple as making all the hose clamps face the same way.


btw Kevin, it doesnt matter where i learn somthing.. if i learn it and do it.. then why shouldnt i tell someone else who asks how to do it? or so i need to make a "i learned this from cornholio on LS1tech.com" disclaimer after every LS1 post?

 

Actually it's "The Great Cornholio" and yes it's considered polite/ethical to attribute your information back to the original source.

Do not make my bunghole angry!!!

 

Anybody?

 

what, you didn't pose a question, you just quoted a statement you made from earlier. I assume you're asking where to get a wiring harness from. If you don't want to fork over the money to buy one, do it yourself.

 

Anybody, what?? I replied to your earlier statement. I don't understand what you are asking/saying now.

here too

 

...He wants to know if anyone will pay him 750 to make a harness just as good as what you got from your source. Although I'm sure he'd do it for less and just as well.

 

Okay, this has gotten stupid enough. The original question was answered within the first couple of replies, and the originator hasn't been back since. The rest of you can go stroke your cyberegos somewhere else.

Since this was a regional question, it should have been asked on the appropriate regional forum. I let it go in case it actually yielded some generally useful information, and the blatant abuse of Board rules does not fit that criteria.

Next time, with regard to the original question, either Regional forum, or forget it.

The rest of the stuff - read the rules. Again. Which many of you obviously need to be refreshed on content and intent.