I found a local shop that uses GM crate engines in their engine swaps/rebuilds and I need your opinion(s) on whether the price is where it should be.

Car specs:
1990 Camaro RS 305 TBI automatic

Quoted engine and pricing:
350 [crate] w/TBI $1295 + sales tax ($106.84) + $850 in labor = $2251.84

Now, I only plan on running TBI for as long as I can to save up the money to drop in an EFI system with a couple of turbos or supercharger(s) down the road. So, I mainly need opinions as to the quote pricing whether its a good deal or not. I DO NOT have the space currently to do the swap myself due to this beauty taking all the garage space.

So as Howie would say, "Deal or no deal?". If you know of a better shop here locally in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area please feel free to give me an address + phone number. Must be within 30 miles of zipcode 75067. Thanks in advance for the opinions.

*edit*
Please remember this is going to be my daily driver and not some high horsepower street machine--at least not yet. I would just like opinions on the pricing and not whether I should get a TBI or not.

 

No deal. Don't get a TBI 350.

 

My apologies, this is route I'm going with for now. This is to rebuild a daily driver, not a high horsepower machine. Maybe I should reword my post to reference this.

 

If just a daily driver, and not turbo or supercharged, then the 350 TBI engine will be fine.

I would equate "EFI system with a couple of turbos or supercharger(s)" with "high horsepower machine". But, if this 350 isn't intended for such a future upgrade, go for it.

(BTW, there's nothing about "that beauty" taking all the garage space that a tow truck wouldn't solve. . . )

 

For daily driving use yes, it is more than adequat enough to make my drive to work fun. I mean you can't argue with 200bhp and 300lb.ft. of torque stock can you? (or whatever numbers a 350 TBI with performance intake+exhaust has) He did list it as a performance tuned engine build so who knows what power it'll produce. He says he drops this engine in most of the classic cars that come his way. I'm sure he's referring to the same 350 crate just with carbs. I'd imagine he's going to bolt on my 305 TBI system. Whch will probably be swapped out with the 454 TBI and higher PSI fuel pump alone with an open element intake.

Let me explain that a bit. This 350 will get a major overhaul when I decide the time is right for a performance upgrade such as an EFI system and a twin forced induction setup. The pistons, cam, and etc will be beefed up before the upgrade you can count on that. For now the cheap route for me is to get it running well enough for daily driving use and then deal with the performance later. Remember, my 3rd gen has almost 242,000 miles on the engine. Its going to be due for another engine soon...I mean it runs great now but who knows what one cold morning might do to it.

I'll take that as sarcasm. The MR2 is my brother's and we are going to stuff a Camry V6 in it and make it quite a powerful go cart. It just might be faster than my Camaro will end up being.

 

No, more like a tongue-in-cheek poke for letting a non-3rd gen get in the way of progress.

A '92 Lumina kept my project out of the garage for over 2 months. Well, ended up delaying it for more than that, even.

 

Yea, but that was a LUMINA and this is an MR2. Big difference. I'm only kidding you.

 

Did you have any luck with this, if so, is there a shop that you would recommend?
Thanks
Dave
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I say just get or rebuild the 305. Your fuel mileage will drop drastically with the 350 upgrade, not to mention the fact that you now have to go find a 350TBI unit or injectors, the PROM and such, not to mention all the sensors to go along with it.

Just rebuild the 305 and pocket the extra cash for future upgrades like rims, suspension, and chassis mods.

 

Define significant. Like .5 mpg or less? Is that significant?

It is in the C.A.F.E. world, but not to someone talking about dual turbos.

Rebuilding a 305 has got to be the worst use of hobby dollars out there.

 

No, no luck finding a good local shop. I've had a few emergencies pop up so my funds were reduced by 40%. So I'm back to saving again. I'm really thinking about just buying a running engine and have someone else put it in and just pay the labor charge. I don't know if building a 305 or getting a 350 crate + build-up is worth the time and money considering this doesn't touch the rest of the car. Spending $3,000 on just the engine just seems like a waste considering the car needs a paint job + bodywork + interior + exhaust.

Anybody had any good experiences with craigslist? I do not want to go the ebay route for several reasons. I'd like to get an LT1 but I doubt I'd be able to find a running complete engine w/4L60E for $1,200 or less. I need a good alternative that won't cost me more than $1,000-1,200 for the engine/transmission and $1,000 in labor for someone to put it in. In other words I do not want to spend more than $2,200 on the drivetrain total. At this point even if I drop in a V6 I don't care, as I can just drop a turbo or two on it for little money in the future--or if its a 3800 Series I can put the Eaton supercharger on it.

 

you wouls spend way more going v6 than youwould 350. Look around on craigslist. Find yourself a 350 longblock. Do some searching, they are on there and cheap. Take your intake and tb and put on it. Go to the pul lyour own place and get a 350 chip and injectors for cheap, and go for it. use your exhaust and your distributor everything. then mod it down the road.

Are there better ways, of course. Everyone would like to ditch everything non performance and replace it all at once. Its just not practical. This way, you can upgrade exhaust and whatnot as you get the money. Those are smaller expense compared to an engine.

 

My problem is I don't have the space to do the engine swap myself. How much extra $$$ is it going to cost me for some mechanic shop to do the swap for me if all I do is bring them a long block?

You did mention craigslist, I take it that is a good place to get engines? I hate ebay for mechanical parts.

 

Good news, sort of. I found a local shop that will rebuild my 305 and convert it to a carb setup for $2,200 total. This includes new accessories and tuneup items. Carb > TBI IMO. The shop in question specializes in restoration of classics. They have several 70's Trans-Ams and a couple of C3 Corvette convertables sitting in their garage at the moment. I'm looking forward to this I think, it will give me the oppertunity to cheaply make power since carb power is abundant. I just can't do turbos. Blowers on the other hand...

So, how much power should I expect from a run-of-the-mill stock 305 w/carb setup? And secondly, how much would it cost me to get to my target of 300-320bhp and 320-350lb.ft. torque? I'm guessing since the smog pump and emissions equipment will be removed (I'll keep the catalytic converter) my power should range between 180bhp to 200bhp...or more? Any ideas?

Or should I just find the numbers for a stock 3rd gen with a carb 305 and expect those power outputs?

 

Ask them how much to rebuild and install a 350. Probably $2300.

 

Unless your heart is SET on the 305, Ditch that thing and step up to a 350. Your already shellin out the cash so dont gimp yourself! (I know I know there are guys on here with beastly 305s)Just my 2 cents...

 

Yeah, if your gonna do a full rebuild, like overbore, new pistons and bottom end, all that, you might as well drop the extra $50 on tired 350 block. There is no reason that you would do all the same exact work to a worn *** 305, when even less worn 350 blocks are abundant.

There is a stickey about doing the 305TBI to 350TBI swap. The stuff you need to change out isnt that bad- a few sensors, the injectors, ECM (now would be a good time to pay some extra for an EBL flash) and possibly fuel pump, depending on how beat it is.

Also for cheap, you could find some 350 manifolds and y-pipe with the single 3" cat, at a junkyard. That will allow you to use a 3" inlet catback exhaust, without the stock LO3 bottleneck y-pipe and manis. My buddy swapped manifolds and y-pipe to the 3" one years ago on an IROC he used to have - it was worth it to him.

 

1. I'm SET on the 305.
2. I'm going carb instead of TBI.
3. I ONLY want 300hp at the crank.
4. This isn't my hotrod.
5. This is my daily driver.
6. This will never see a drag strip or redlight street race.

So, now that this is clear can I please get some advice on a 305 carb motor buildup? I need both the quickest way to get 300hp at the crank and the least expensive way to get 300hp at the crank. And or somthing inbetween.

*edit*
Can a mod please change my topic title to: 305 TBI --> 305 carb, need 300hp at the crank. Options?

Thanks in advance.

 

^ Trust me, if this car isn't going to see the track, as well as no street racing whatsoever, then don't build for horsepower, build for torque (since you'll be keeping RPM to a minimum anyways), you'll enjoy the car a lot more around town. Valve events, air flow, and static/dynamic compression levels are the key....

 

The bold --> I have no idea what you just said--minus airflow. I'm not ashamed to admit it either--just go easy on me lol.

The rest --> Torque is fun yes, but passing on the motorway needs higher end horsepower, and since I have an autobox it automatically downshifts and thus the RPMS rise out of my "powerband"--more horsepower should help with this issue shouldn't it? Pavement ripping torque (which my car has a tiny bit of ) is indeed fun in the city, but on the motorway I think I want a bit more mid/high RPM power. Thoughts?

 

The idea is to maximize power under the curve. You want to make as much power down low as you can, especially since that's where your RPM range will be the majority of the time. To do this, you'll want your valvetrain to work in harmony, symmetry. You need just the right amount of compression, just the right amount of air flow (the velocity of the air is equally as important, if not even moreso), and the perfect valve events. Valve events are based on the grind of the cam that you choose, so it's important not to go with an off the shelf grind, because you'll then have to tailor everything else to the cam. Rather, have a custom cam designed for the things mentioned above, once everything is determined.....

This is why you'll want a careful blend of both, maximizing power under the curve, while making plenty of power above 5000 RPM. If you pay careful attention to detail, you can have the best of both worlds, even with an anemic 305. Don't focus too much on peak horsepower, which is what everybody loves quoting. Average power > peak power, this, in conjunction with the right gearing for the highway, and you'll be very very happy with the end result....

 

Man, I'm not trying to **** you off. quickest and easist way is with a 350. Why limit yourself? Its horrible. I guess you can lead a horse to water......

That aside, you need a new intake anyway. New distributor, all that jazz. I would recommend the possiblity of 305 vortecs, or a set of s/r torquers. A moderate cam, one of the comp cams xe series, and exhaust. Not a catback either, I mean all of it. From where it bolts to the heads to where it exits at the back. If this is an auto, you are gonna need a different converter. 300 really is a decent amount to get from a 305. In essence you are going to have to build the engine about 15% more radical to acheive the same HP level, and then you are going to lose even more bottom end tq because of the difference in cubes.

 

I've been reading alot of 305 build up threads across alot of forums and it seems 300hp at the crank is actually fairly easy to obtain without sacrificing too much torque. Full exahust, cams, intake, and heads seem to be all I need to get even a TBI 305 to 300hp. The carb 305 I'm going to get built should be slightly better on power but less on the gas mileage--which isn't something I'm going to care about unless gas is $8.00 per gallon like in Europe. The 305 TBI build up here had a 298hp 306? torque build up--that would be just around exactly what I want. About $1,000-1,200 extra for those performance parts seems to get what I need. Hell I could still decide to do a TBI since I could theoretically get the power numbers I want.

My problem once I get these parts after the rebuild will be getting the right timing, airflow+fuel, and gearing correctly set. And I'm guessing I'll need a beefier rear end as well. I'm sure an IROC or 1991-1992 Z28 rear will suffice?

Thanks for the help.

 

All of the 10-bolt rears are, or can be made, the same strength. The later 28-spline axles are beefier, and you shouldn't consider "building" a 26-spline axle based rear.

There's a tech article about beefing up the 10-bolt ("Ultimate 10-bolt", or something to that effect, I believe).