Hey i love my camaro, i bought it for $700 and it had a oil leaking v6 and it clicks and makes a bunch of fun noises. the car is in great shape so i am going to take the v6 out before it blows and put a v8 in, i can buy a 4 bolt mane chevy carbed 454 v8 for $500, nicely rebuilt. from a friend. are there any major issues that i need to tackle with wirring and what do i need to know about a v6 to big block. My father and i have a good deal of mechanical no how, we no what were doing but would like to be informed about the project before we start. how long and what do i need to change.

I appreciate any help and or critisisim

 

Welcome aboard thirdgen.org.

This is a combination V6 to V8 swap and big block swap. There are stickies in the top section of this forum on each.

Wiring - if you don't try to keep fuel injection, it's pretty simple. Figure on removing all of the computer harness (don't need to cut anything, it'll come out in one chunk), lengthening, rerouting, reterminating some wire. Ignition power and gauges are separate from the computer harness, so don't fret about that.

Figure on removing/replacing anything and everything that attaches to the engine.

An idea what this 454 came out of? Heads are the most critical power component, and the typical factory 454 from a truck has terrible heads.

 

I am just trying to put in a powerfull motor for a weekend driver. i am not worried about the motor it self but i was wondering about major stuff like the fuel pump from the injected 3.1 or the swaybar, shocks and that kind of stuff, i also dont care about ac because it doesnt work now anyways. Are there any issues with putting a 454 in the car, how hard will it be compared to a 350.

 

You can use the stock electric fuel pump along with a return-style pressure regulator like the Mallory 4309. You might want to upgrade the pump to something like the Walbro 255, though.

A bigger sway bar on the front would certainly help handling with the extra weight. Figure on changing the front springs as well. Struts & shocks are the same.

Compared to putting a 350 in the car, putting in a 454 would be about twice the work and expense (above and beyond the cost of the engine itself). To say nothing about what you'll do to the rear end with the additional torque the 454 will have. Exhaust is a major headache and expense.

 

As he said, refer to the stickies, there is a swap using some mid length headers, they were under 200$, that is what i am going to use, it is a pretty straight swap, depending on what headers and distributor you use, you need to change motor mounts and your V6 trans wont even bolt up. The rearend will be fine till you go with a limited slip setup, till then you will just boil off one tire with the open diff till you let off the throttle.

 

yahh the motor i get will come with the regular automatic 700 R4, from what i read thats what i need, ive also read and talked to some people and they said exause is gonna be a big issue. i can get parts like rear ends and stuff becuase i am very good friends with the junk yard guy, i saw where people had to cut the firewall and grind some stuff the get the motor to fit, how much of that will i have to do, compared to a carbed 350.

 

You don't have to cut the firewall to install a big block.

There aren't any junkyard rear ends that would be an upgrade and bolt into a 3rd gen.

 

Unless he found the RARE as hell dana 44.

 

yahh but will i actually have to cut or grind anything to put a bigblock in, if im gonna have to grind and cut that is about where i draw the line for a big block. If I get a motor it will be complete with a tranny and everything on it. Has anyone else here done it who can shed some knowledge on me.

 

Read the stickies, for the Patriot headers, you have tp beat the passenger side floor pan up just a bit and grind the driver side motor mount a tad to get the headers to clear, that is it, not much at all, unless you have downs syndrome, then it is a problem.

 

okay thanks for the info but you really didn't need to bring in a need to make fun of people with disabilities, ill go with the 454 then.

 

That wasnt making fun of anyone, it was stating a fact.

Good choice

 

im considering a similar swap, and it does look to be a chore, but the payoff in the end can be huge. as long as you dont use tall valve covers you dont need to worry bout nething like the brake booster or ac box on the firewall. the headers shouldnt be too much of a problem as long as you dont mind a lil "massaging" and cutting. i dont know for sure, but if you want to run the auto tranny, then you might be able to get longer length headers, which would give you a broader powerband.

if you get some casting #'s off the engine (under the valve cover and the drivers side rear of the block on the trans-mount shelf) then go to mortec.com or just post them here and i or someone can tell you what kinda motor you might be getting. if you want a weekend warrior, you really do want to stay away from "peanut port" truck heads, cuz they have not rpm ability, bout 3500-4000 is when they level off. oval ports are the best street heads, and rectangle ports are all out race pieces really.

neway, the less accessories you wanna run, the easier it is, and some stiffer springs and sway bar will help the front end. you definitely wanna see what parts the motor has, if you do a cam swap etc. you know what will work with the motor and your intended application well. some minor brake upgrades would help too (some slotted rotor replacements and some slightly better pads) the rear end, i would say a 12 bolt or ford 9 inch. but the ford 9 inches are kinda noisy when driving. as long as its gonna be a slightly built-medium built 454, i dont see you needing a ton of rear end. if you were nice to it, i bet that stock rear end would hold for a while (but i dont think you plan on being nice to a weekend warrior )

neway ill stop for now, good luck keep us posted!

 

is the dana 44 a really good rear end becuase i live in an area with alot of rich red necks and there are on or two always on craigslist. Is it a pausi?

 

You'll find a lot of Dana 44's for jeeps but they won't fit into a third gen. You need the Dana 44 that was specifically for a third gen. It was once available over the counter directly from GM.

The Dana 44 has a 8.5" ring gear and is much stronger than any production diff offered. If you do manage to find one and if it's in good condition, it can cost just as much as buying a new aftermarket third gen 12 bolt or 9".

 

Yep, i sold my dana 44 for 600$, it still needed an axle and calipers.

 

yea danas are good, but as with alot of rear end upgrades for third gens, you will prolly have to modify it, or if it does bolt up its gonna cost some coin. i got an old truck 12 bolt that im gonna fit to the third gen, but seeing as i fabricate as a side job, its prolly gonna be a lil easier for me.

personally i think a junkyard ford 9 inch or similar 12 bolt could suffice. you have to take into consideration if you going to change the gears, axles, brakes, etc before swapping a rear end. make sure its the right width and all, or that you can shorten it or do whatever you need to do.

if you can find a bolt-in dana, and you wanna spend the money on it, go for it, it should work fine with the combo. you should also know that moser sells complete 12 bolt rear end setups for 3rd gens around 1400 bux. yea its alot of coin, but if you gotta spend 600 on a partial dana 44, then 1400 is pretty well rounded out. all you need for those kits are brakes, calipers and installation.

 

$1400? A complete 12 bolt is around $2500.

The cheapest way to put a stronger diff under the car is to buy a 9" housing package. You get a bolt in housing with axles. It's designed to use your factory brakes and rims. All you need to do is provide a center section with gears, posi etc which you can pick up at a local junkyard. The housing package is around $1000. You can easily put a 9" under the car for less than $1500 depending on how much you pay for center section components, new brakes etc.

You can easily spend $500-$1000 just trying to beef up a 10 bolt. You then have a slightly stronger diff that still has a tiny ring and pinion.

The truck 12 bolt isn't the same as a car 12 bolt. Trucks use a smaller diameter pinion. A car 12 bolt is actually stronger.

Upgrading the engine to something better and more powerful is always nice but many times that's all people think of. Many don't realize that the entire drivetrain needs to be upgraded to handle all that extra power. You could install a nice BBC under the hood then granny drive the car around so you don't break anything but that defeats the purpose of installing a BBC.

 

i totally have to agree on the exhaust. i just put a 327 .30 over bored in mine, and it doesnt sound bad but the exhaust aint strong enough for that motor, it has a horrible rattle noise to it, so whenever shes done gettin painted thats the next little project.
kinda figured wouldnt be cheap. any advice on what kind of exhaust i should think about????

 

hmm, is this last post for the same thing? i kinda dont think so....neway. yes you are correct that a complete oncompassing, drop-in rear end is around 2k-2500. but a moser 12 bolt, bolt-in package starts at 1400, minus center section. but like you said, why spend the extra grand for their parts on a street/strip car. you can find a perfectly good center section at a junk yard for pennies. hell the ones around where i live just let you have the whole car/truck.

yes your also right the stock truck rearends arent actually as strong as car rearends, unless you find a 10,000 GVW trailer hauler edition pickup that has been factory refitted with higher performance parts, such as an oval port headed 454, muncie 4 speed (the m20, not the 465 that was the more common truck 4 speed) and a beefed up 12 bolt, with what appears to be 4.56 gears on the tag. this is what im using the engine and rear end from.

neway, has neone noticed that the person who started this thread has kinda fallen away of late?

 

That's common. We usually still keep discussing the topic until we get bored. It always leaves good information in the forum archive.

 

The difference between doing it with a 12 bolt and a 9 inch is that with a 9 inch the center section can simply be unbolted and stuck right back in place without rebuilding it if you wanted to do it that way. The 12 bolt needs to be taken apart and setup again.

 

The problem is, a 12 bolt GM is WAY weaker than a 9 inch ford, now a MOSER unit, is WAY stronger than a GM 12 bolt because it is engineered for what we beat them for, the stockers have pitted caps and other things that are weak links. The moser 12 bolt is not much weaker than a 9 inch since they fix so many weak points.

If for whatever reason you swear to god that a 12 bolt moser is not enough, get a Dana 60 and skip the 9 inch. The only thing sperior about the 9 inch is the ability to swap center sections at the track, which no one i know personally does this.

 

yea the 9 inch is nice if your a real track person and need to constantly change pieces, plus yea, its bullet proof. but for a semi-street car, id go with the 12 bolt. its got enough capability to handle a decently built 454, and will not be nearly as noisy as the 9 inch. if you dont care about noise and you wanna mash the throttle alot, then a 9 inch is prolly the way to go.

im building mine for the street, and some weekend race stuff, so nothing crazy, so im going with the 12 bolt for a lil more comfort.

neone got an idea for a 450 hp recipe on a 468bbc that has 336781# oval port heads? looking for camshaft ideas and carb ideas.

i wanna use an air gap manifold, and was figuring a 750 carb might be enough. a holley DP is always a good fall back, but i really liked the edelbrock i had last time. the cam i would like to idle as smoothly as possible (kinda backwards huh?) but still lay down the power. im going for a mostly midrange and low end motor. probably go with the patriot headers for 3rd gens, but might fork it for the hookers.

itll be paired to a t-56 with centerforce flywheel, pressure plate, and DF clutch kit, and the 12 bolt rear. planning on running 4.11, or 3.90 gears, havent decided.

it will all be in the 89 rs i have, no A/C, just power steering, water, and the alternator. the brakes im converting to hydro-boost, and the suspension is rebuilt. putting in some eibach springs for a v8 model, figure they should handle the weight.

neway, lemme know if you guys got some carb and cam recommendations, thanks!

 

Well, as i was aying, a 12 bolt is fone for a full race car as far as i am concerned, just not a stock GM unit, HAS to be a moser or strang with all the goodies.

My BBC build is going to be with the same heads you have, bigger valves and ported, nothing overboard, just cleaning them up and pocket porting, i am going to use a victor jr intake, i am going .060 over, 9.6 to 1 forged pistons and milling the heads to get close to 10.5 to 1 as possible, i am going to use a 800 CFM pro form i built til i hcan geta larger piece.

The cam i am going to use is a hyd roller, 110 LSA, 248/252 duration @.050 and .560/.580 lift, that is with 1.7 RRs, so i might go with 1.8s to get the extra lift i want.

I will be using the patriot 1 7/8 headers and see where it goes. I am too using a T56 with the same flywheel and a CF DF clutch for now, i have a moser 12 bolt with 4.30 gears and Spohn suspension.

Looking foreward to seeing how well it turns out, shooting for 600 HP and nitroud on top of it.

 

yea i hear that on the 12 bolt part your build sounds pretty sweet, im assuming ur going for some 1320 battling?

for mine im planning on doing so head fluffing as well, just not going with larger valves or heavy milling. at that point id rather just spend the money on aluminum, cuz the price difference would be negligable next to performance gains.

yea that cam has a nice lsa, id even like mine a lil tighter, maybe 108-109. the lift aint too bad, considering alot of the retrofit roller cams are right around .510ish these days. 1.8s should help ya with another 15-20 on that setup i figure. my biggest problem is that id like to keep around 9-9.5:1 compression, cuz im building the short block so its blower freindly, just in case i wanna change up down the road. im thinkin 9.5:1 and if i add a blower ill swap some thick gaskets in place and run around 6-8 psi.

what pistons are you going with? i havent picked any out yet, and the rest of my assembly will accept stock height pistons. was thinkin of checking wiseco or keith black out, but havent checked yet.

also (i know its pointless) but ive been trying to figure out my kinda mileage for the setup. since the t56 has a .50 6th gear i was looking at the shorter rear end, so i can still get some launch out of it, but if 500 rpms means 2 mpg on the beast, then id go for the taller 3.90s prolly. i know its kinda dumb to go for mileage with a big block, but figure id try. might have to get both sets and see what they both do.

i actually picked up a carb today, an edelbrock AVS thunder series 800 cfm. should do the trick, still keep some drivability in it and give it a lil kick in the pants when i want. now i just need a bump stick (and various other valve train components), some headers, an ignition system, and a driveshaft and im good to go.

build sounds fun man! keep it up, im on mine as well.

 

It will be my night and weekend car, but it will see the drag strip every now and then. A for aluminum, the heads were 260$, the machine work is 500$ and the valves are 110$, total should be about 900$, the cheapest aluminum heads are 1500$, so i can justify the money and i already have the heads and they cam with good plates and studs. Should get 8-10 MPG, and i will be using the FHR forged kieth blacks, i used them before and was very happy with them.

 

yea thats gonna be a fun cruiser, or rather, bruiser. yea the heads thing you got pretty well, if you buy brand new. theres alot of 2nd hand stuff online thats in perfect shape for crazy deals. ya, new is always nicer, but neway. for that extra money you get an easy, bolt on 40-50 more hp, and you can run more compression than with iron heads, cuz of less heat retention, not to mention the serious weight savings.

but i digress. im stickin with iron and so are you, and youre still going to make silly power with them anyway haha.

hmm ill think the KB's will be what i go with too. ive been reading alot of success stories with them. same for wiseco, but they are more spendy.

 

The only other piston i might use are the probe pieces, but i doubt it.

The aluminum heads i see for BBC are still over 1k$ used, from what i have been seeing that is. There are other KB forged pistons besides the FHRs that i might consider, they are a bit tougher and only 100$ more, so i will probably do that.

Buying another 92 RS today probably to flip it for cash to help finish the 89 hard top.

Got a guy building my T56 for nothing, just parts, so we will see how it goes....$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

yea im a craigslist *****, what can i say. there is a guy in washington that has a set of AFR big block heads that have been fluffed a bit, wants 850 for them with RR's and they have been semi redone. new seals guides and milled. says they hold seal on 25" of vaccuum, so the seats should be good. pretty smokin price if you asked me, but i got my stuff for a set of old subs, and its on a 3k rebuild.

lol, im kinda thinking that you and me have some similar ideas on hand. we both are building BBC 89 RS's with t-56's, and we are both flipping newer model camaros to help with the funding haha.

i just traded my snowmobile for a 91 rs that needs a fender and the tranny replaced. ive got both pieces and paint for it, and the motor runs greats, plus i have an extra 2.8 with computer to swap in if the motor craps out. hoping to get some decent coin outa that one, specially since i got the sled for free and the trade cost me nothing extra haha. well see how it goes, whats your flip car need?

i guess i got kinda luck on my tranny. the guy had it performance rebuilt about 2500 ago, and wants to drag, so he went th400. sposed to be rated for 700tq. that would be sweet.

 

Well, deal was flop, saw a nice 91/92 and was like wow, 300$? Deal! .....or not, the place i was looking was 3 houses down and was a POS, needs WAT too much work and the engine LITERALLY has a rats nest built...so never mind, i am selling my 91 RS and my 95 Z28 to pay for the 468.

 

I am trying to do the same with my 92 camaro I am going from the 350 tbi to a 454 carb. Its really my first time doi g this I am also droping in a 6 speed from a 94 camaro. If anyone has any idea or want to advice me on what to do i would really appreciate it. As far as i know everything should fit in the same. Could someone help me with the suspension, its blowing my mind i dont know what to do.

 

What do you mean? What is wrong with the suspension? I am not doing anything, i am assuming removing the AC and power steering along with the brackets and having nothing but an alternator along with a glass hood is going to counter the fact that a heavy big block is going in, might to be the same, but close, i am also going to relocate the battery to the back.

 

I heard i would have to chane the spring to those of a BB

 

ah sucky zone, sorry that deal was a bust. shoot though, i figure you could fund almost the entire build with that 95 z28 if its in even decent shape. i guess if you wanna go for gold, then ya sell the 91 too.

im swapping the gfx off the 91 for my build, i dig the vents what can i say.

GSRMmi31, there are no "big block springs" for a third gen per say. just small block springs. if you get some aftermarket lowering springs or even just stock replacements and a fiberglass hood, you should hardly notice the weight difference. if you go aluminum heads, its even better, and if you get a bigger sway bar, better yet. ideally with a bbc, you want to shed as much weight as you can off the front. but its not going to affect the handling drastically if you do basic upgrades.

at least a bigger sway bar and make sure your struts are in good working order. for a bit more stiffness, some sport springs or something like, to help stiffen the front end up with the extra 120-140 lbs youll have.

everything else is kinda like a small block. the bbc bolts into the same place as the small block, but you might have to be careful with your valve covers if you have a/c, and on the vaccuum booster side. i dont have a/c and im switching to hydroboost brakes, so i dont have to worry bout valve cover clearancing.

theres a small amount of work to do with the motor mounts if you use the patriot bbc headers, but i believe the hooker competition headers will fit without modification needed.

neway, let us know some more about you build! engine, heads, other parts wanting to be used. so far weve got three bbc third genners here, and i like all the mingling and feedback!

 

With aluminum head a big block weighs the same as a all cast iron small block.

As for the cars, i am selling the 91 anyways, dont want it and dont need it.

 

I wish my heads were that cheap. By the time all the work was done to the heads and fully assembled, they're worth about $5000.

A factory BBC is roughly 150 pounds heavier than a factory SBC. One BBC iron head is about 65 pounds. Two aluminum BBC heads are around 65 pounds. Then change the heavy cast intake to an aluminum intake which everyone will do and it puts the BBC close to the weight of a factory SBC.

The slight increase in weight from the BBC is made up in the torque it creates.

I ran V6 springs in my car for a few years before finally buying Moroso trick springs. My front axle weight is roughly the same as a fully loaded factory V8 car in the 1700-1800 pound range.

 

thanks to all who have answered my questions. What would be the best way to get rid of some mild rust in the chasis of my camaro, and what could I do to get wider tires in the back without spending too much money.

 

wow! 5k on heads alone, yikes...i think i just had a mild heart attack :S lol, thats just barely less than i spent on my entire 84 z28 build. i hope you make silly power stephen!

yea i think that chevy kinda under rated all their springs for the third gens. who knows?

GSR, minor rust is easy with a wire wheel and some rust protectant paint. if its rotting, it might be a lil more tricky.

how wide of tires are you thinkin? ive seen 275 series tires stuffed in with the right wheel offset. you might be able to go wider, i donno. other than that, you get into tubbing, which is slightly involved. or fender rolling...best advice is find a set of rims with a good offset that will fit 275's. i dont have numbers off the top of my head, but do a lil research and maybe you can find someone whos got fatty rears and see what they did, good luck!

 

Post some pics of the rust and we can give you some advice. Where exactly is the rust? K-member? Subframe? Floorpan? My K-member was quite rusty but it was all surface rust, I used a small palm sander for the larger flatter portions and a die grinder with some corse sanding disc's for the tighter areas than painted it with POR-15. I did the entire engine bay the same way after removing EVERYTHING and top coated it with a satin black which came out very nice. The subframe rails got the same treatment except I followed the POR-15 with some undercoating. I'm still working on the floorpan but will do it in the same manner. It really all depends on the extent of the rust, like I said post some pics to give us a better idea of what you're dealing with.

 

Ill get some pics soon, also were could i find some performance parts for my 2000 454.

 

Do you know witch oil pan would fit since the engine is bigger.

 

ive heard that car oil pans are what you want, cus the truck bbc oil pans are too big. but not sure. id just look for another f-body car with a big block and use that one. im gonna get a moroso pan for mine instead of second hand cus i want a bit more capacity if i can swing it.

 

if possible could you please give me the part number of the oil pan you are going to use.

 

im planning on using the PN- 20406, 6 qt capacity, 8 inch deep pan. barely winged out to get that extra oil in. just have to check which application will work for you. if you go to morosos website, then you can browse all the pans and what generation engine theyll work for.

im using a gen IV engine, not a V or VI, and the pans are different. morosos stuff is on the pricey side, but its also very well made and has some kewl features. the pan im getting will clear a 4.500 inch stroker crank with the stock rods, so if i ever cranked it up, id be set.

neway shop around, theres lots of easy find oil pans, before i buy new i may check around for the same PN pan second hand.

 

my engine is a 2000 454 do you know what gen that is.

 

a quick google search reveals that your 2000 454 is a
gen VI block. pretty good stuff, till you find you have to use an electric or belt drive fuel pump cuz the V and VI generation blocks arent cast with mechanical pump bosses.

if thats not a problem for ya, then you basically got a better-in-every-way BBC.

 

Errrr...use an electric fuel pump....i cannot believe there are people out there still using a stock cam driven fuel pump....

 

Thanks to all who are answering my question. right now I am about three weeks away from getting the car fully sanded and have it ready to paint. After that its all installing the motor and whatever lines I may need an ill get some pics. Ill probably put a video on my myspace when the car is running.
sincerely
Thanks.

 

And why is this?Have used them for years,our Grand American late model was making a little over 600hp on one of these POS pumps.