REDONE, PLEASE RE-READ,
HI I have a couple questions that I would like to be answered if possible.

What is more reliable for a often used car, a 300+hp new GM motor (carbed), 300+hp new GM motor (super ram), or save up for a donor car (late 4th gen LS1 car)? And the 300+hp motors would be a built 350/290hp gm motor.

What is more streetable of the two 300+ motors? I realize the LS1's would be the best for being streetable.

What are some pro's and con's of the three setups?

Will a rebuilt 700r4 and a rebuilt 3.23 posi hold up better to the carbed or super ram motor?

Whats cheaper in the long run?

What will be a better combo with a supercharger?

Whats easier to work with time to time?

Whats easier to work ON.

Would they be emmisions legal in Oregon?

How much lighter is the LS1?

Whats better on gas mileage? What's the diffrence of the mileage?

Whats better for me? I want something that will have power throught the rpm range and not just necessarily down low.

thank you.

And yes in know these questions are asked millions of times but some of it just is unclear to me i want to know whats best for MY situation.

I also hope this will answer other people's questions.

 

I assume you mean the old 70's LT-1.

The LT-1 will make its peak power at a lower RPM due to the larger displacement, so it will have the slight edge. That will also make it easier to drive and more efficient.

A properly built TH700 would be fine behind either one. Ditto the rear.

The 327, if factory heads, won't have accessory bolt holes in the ends of the heads. Neither will have hardened exhaust valves or seats unless upgraded. Of course, either would be improved with a set of Vortec heads.

Neither would be easier than the other to work on, but a modern grind hydraulic lifter cam would make either need less work than they needed from the factory.

Neither will be emissions legal. The only carb that would be emissions legal is a computer q-jet (which wouldn't be happy with either factory cam that came in those engines). An alternative would be an EFI LT1 or LS1. With the appropriate associated emissions equipment, of course. A stock LS1 would have more power than either of those old school engines, and would be a whole bunch more fuel efficient and easier to drive. While not certified, the Scoggin-Dickey Vortec TPI crate engine would probably sniff clean enough. I know a fellow 3rd gen'r who started with a ZZ4 crate and put Vette TPI stuff on it (after putting a lot of go-faster aftermarket stuff in it), got it through Colorado's emissions inspection/test.

Sorry, no way no how I'm going to talk you into a 327. Less power potential. Period. No way around that.

There is no "wow" factor with having a 327. Nobody would know unless you told them. And no one would care, except those with a 350 that know an easy mark when they see one.

 

This article will answer most of your questions. The 327 is on page one and the 350 is on page three. Neither would be good with a supercharger because of the high compression ratios, and both have big solid lifter cams that require more maintenance. You would be much better off either getting a GM engine with newer technology or building one with a good heads/cam combo.

Click me

 

a smallblock is a smallblock is a smallblock, if I put a 305, a 327, a 350, and a 383 next to each other you wouldn't be able to tell the difference unless you look at the casting numbers, I almost guarantee it (some 327's had crankcase vent tubes).

I'd rather have a 383 with 327 stickers, more power, more torque, more fun.

 

I agree that not too many people run 327's, and it's just one of the motors that seem to work well.....that would give it a wow factor...while a 350 is good, it doesn't have the...that's cool factor.
And are you talking about a newer (93-97) LT1 or an older late 70's lt1 (I'm suspecting newer)

ericjon, actually depending on the year you could tell the difference. A newer LT1 look quite a bit different than a 327. Even different that a standard non-lt1 350 looks different.
Some do look alike, IE 305 and 350 tpi look the same, because it's almost the same block..(though it's not the same, you make a 305 into a 350, you hit the water jacket before reaching the correct bore)
and a 377 or 383 is a 350 block, but I think he was not saying for looks.

 

Historically, whenever someone says "It's a 327" in something that isn't 40 years old, the person saying the words is usually a) a 16 year old know-nothing kid or b) a wild eyed, crazy haired, ex-hippy. It's not so much a wow factor, it's more of a why factor.

Here's the thing... All of those old engines have a 2pc rear main seal that's going to leak. They've got a flat tappet or solid lifter cam that has poor reliability for endurance and street use (especially on modern oils). Then you've got the old style valve cover gaskets, oil style oil pan rails, dipsticks on the wrong side, and so on. Fact: You're better off with something modern.

With the current state of things, you'd be stupid not to swap to a LSx based engine. You can get a good used pullout LSx for less then it'd cost to rebuild a 40 year old engine. It'd give you better performance, more docile street manners, reliability, and it'd give you a lot more wow factor.

The next best option would be a modern 350 based engine. For what you'll spend having a crank turned, reconditioning some rods, etc you're not far from just buying an entry level 383 rotating assembly. Get some Vortec heads, and a matching TPI base and you've got a boatload of torque. Stick with a roller cam, 1pc rms engine and you'll be light years ahead of an old school V8. It'd still look obsolete though... The wow factor would come from the torque.

 

But on a 327, you can purchase a roller cam, center bolt heads, a different oil pan, and so on....327's can handle rpm a lot better than a 383. And as far as reliablity goes, the cylinder sidewall loading of a 383 by far wears the motor out faster that a 327 with that little stroke. I do agree with you on the two piece main, that just sucks..... but the other items, like any other block, can be changed. Dollar for Dollar you can build more of an older motor than a newer....don't get me wrong, I prefer newer motors, lt's and ls's included, but I have spent way less money on older blocks and gotten near same results.
I have a 327 in my mustang (yes chevy in ford), and it is somewhat a mild build, nothing crazy or expensive, and I LOVE that motor, the car dang near paces the camaro.

 

ok, if there is such a visible difference between a 327 and a 350, then riddle me this, which of my 2 3970010 casting blocks is 350 or a 327, ? are both 350's? both 327's? or are they 302 blocks!?

 

either way, to the original poster, neither of you engine choices are good in my opinion, either way, your looking at a motor that is 40+years old last LT-1 was 71 (right?) but the 370 HP motor was 1970. they were great for the day, but you can't beat a modern motor for durability and reliability and performance, I'd get a vortec truck motor, put a mild cam in it, a new intake, and have fun.

 

I'm pretty sure he's referring to the older motor, no LT1 was 370 hp, the 1970 LT-1 was 370 hp

 

ya im reffering to the older LT-1's.

I would like to go LS1 but i think i would get lost very easily installing the engine i was going go ls1 in the future but i wanted something for now that wasnt so complicated and wasnt going make it unpossible to buy upgrades would a super ram 350 be a better way to go just a low 400hp engine FOR NOW.

I might just go with LS1 as the camaro isnt going be my HS car as i originaly planned ( probaly ) i will use a beater tell the camaro is finished or the good ol bmx bike
thanks for your help.

 

thanks for the artical i will read over later.

 

ya the 327's are something diffrent but from what iv read now its NOT IN A GOOD WAY. im actually refering to the older (early 1970's) LT-1 engines, iv read the newer lt1's have problems with optispark and i just dont wanna deal with that.

 

are your try to take shots at me because im a kid?

i do want to go with a ls1 but i just dont have the knowledge and my friend that lives thirdgen camaros basically, i dont think he knows much about ls1 he's more carb and TPI.

i will probaly go with the 350/290hp engine GMperformance offers or a lightly used newer engine but is a well built super ram ( i belive super ram is emmisions legal ) 350 more streetable, reliable, powerful then a similar carbed 350?

is the new 327 ls motor any better then the old 327's? or is it just as complicated as a ls1 and just not worth it?

 

i also very much like the 327's something about them. i still think it would be cool for a thirdgen but i think i will go for something else i just dont have money to burn.

 

wouldnt it be a better choice to go for a ls1? i'll take any suggestions though.

 

327 is nothing but a number of cubic inches. you can destroke a 350 and get a 305, destroke a 400 to a 377, stroke a 350 to a 377, stroke an 346 to a 383, and have completely different motors. its all in the cam/heads/bore/intake/stroke that you get tq and hp. your best bet is a simple 1p-rms, hydro roller, modern headed 350/383. doing extra work for less cubes for the "cool" factor is not worth it, 99% of people don't care about the cubes if the power is there. your asking to compare old outdated technology, why not go with the new stuff that looks the same from the outside?

 

I get what you mean and ya i dont have the money to burn for no reason please re-read my post thanks.

 

God, i'm soooooooo over ls1's!! Everybody and their grand-mother has one... I'm not trash talking them, its just that there are cheaper and easier options out there...

For Example:

http://www.yearone.com/serverfiles/f...put=&SM=1&SC=G

More power out of the box with plenty of room to grow... To top it off, its a fraction of the cost an LS1 swap would be... Think of all the hassle and cash you would save knowing that you could use all the accessories and mounts you already have!! A guy at my speed shop has this set up in his Trans Am, with 4:11 gears he's runnin 12's out of the box!!

Your posts give me headaches... haha

 

the link didnt do anything other then saying it couldnt find the search.

what do you mean? like how i spell? i think i did a pretty dam good job or just that some of my questions are stupid as hell.

 

Go to www.yearone.com, Search for Part #CT350PC1... Its a Year One Crate Motor with Documented 400+hp and 400+tq...

I guess the link was to big...

 

there's nothing wrong with a 327, but you could build a better 350 cheaper, with more power, better driveability, and better longevity.

only the early style opti's have problems, and there are ways around the opti if you want.

a properly tuned carb will make about the same power as a well tuned fuel injection system. volumetric efficiency, and compression determine power, not how the fuel is introduced, but fuel injection typically has much better cold starts, and better all around driveability.

a 5.3 or as you called it, a 327 LS motor, is actually 325 cubic inches, and would require all the same work as it would to install an LS1, I would say that's your best option you have mentioned.

it would be a much better choice, that or an LT1.

 

been through a few engines.... if you can go lsx now, do it. I wish i would have

 

The "emissions legal" thing can get real sticky. There is a big difference between what you can get by an inspector, and what is technically legal.

To be technically legal, the engine and emissions equipment must be from a certified vehicle of the same or later year passenger car, or certified aftermarket replacement parts. In your case, that means 1987 model year or later passenger car engine & equipment. A computer controlled carb would be legal, but not a Holley or Edelbrock carb. Neither the 327 nor the LT-1 would be legal in any way, shape, or form. Argue all you want, they ain't legal.

The '93-up LT1, however, would be legal if you also installed all of the emissions equipment that was used by the factory in a production passenger car.

Ditto the LS1. But, when you start getting into the nitty-gritty of what all is included in "emissions equipment", you find out that even the gas tank is part of the emissions equipment. Then you find out that the fuel level sending unit is part of the emissions equipment control, and it is incompatible with the '87 gas gauge in the dash. To the best of my knowledge, no one has been able to resolve that issue without installing the entire 4th gen instrumentation system, meaning the entire 4th gen dash needs to be installed (and it can't be from an LT1 car). Another challenge would be to install the LS1 catalytic converters in a 3rd gen chassis.

On the other hand, in OR they may only verify the '87 equipment is installed, so an LS1 would need EFI, EGR, A.I.R., evap, cat, etc. That may be fairly simple to accomplish (but would still not be technically legal by Federal standards).

 

And isn't the 5.3 only in trucks? I know it's in my dad's 1500. That wouldn't be a passenger car.

 

Exactly. It can't be a truck-only engine, even if you put passenger car accessories on it.

To be technically emissions legal.

 

True, its best to use the 4th gen dash/instrument cluster along with entire 4th gen wiring harness/ecm to get all the features and to be legal. The ecm controls alot of the gauges and gets signals from them to apply to other things.

That means gas tank and evap system need to be used for best performance. BUT you can get 4th gen tank to work with thirdgen gauge. Just need a special sending unit which i believe comes from a mid/early 90's pontiac passenger car of some sort. I forget the exact year but talk to Lonnies Performance. I have his fuel system on my car and it works fine with stock gauge. Not 100% how accurate it is, but its pretty close. I had it bone dry to start, added 5 gallons and the gauge read just over 1/4. 16 gallon tank so I think its pretty close to being accurate.

 

No, I'm taking shots at crackhead 40-somethings, and 16 year old kids with rusted out El Camino's talking **** at the auto parts counter. Those kind of people are the ones that usually are talking about how their big, bad, 327 is god's gift to the small block Chevy. Not that there's anything wrong with a 327, but give me a break, there are other engines out there that do the same job or better without all the hype.

 

Iroc stangs, how old are you?

 

Right. All this "302's and 327's rev to the moon" stuff usually comes from somebody's uncle's father-in-law's cousin twice removed's brother who had a '68 Camaro with one that waxed Hemi Cudas and 454 Chevelles all day long at the track back in the day. Total .

(Although I did know a guy with a '66 Chevelle 350 that would outrun a '68 440 Cuda and a '69 {I think it was} Cougar 429 Cobra Jet in the quarter.)

 

ya the 327's are good engines just i dont have the extra money to burn. ok ya if i was to install a ls series motor it would be the ls1 plus there it would be cheaper ( probaly ) with a donor car then buy a new engine.

 

ok thanks for pointing this out to me i clearly understand emmisions now thanks

so how you said if i was to swap in a ls1 wouldnt also need all the guages from the ls1 car so does that mean i need the WHOLE dash? im trying to keep her as stock looking as i can. I hope they come up something because i would really like to keep the 3rd gen dash if i cant i wont swap ls1. thanks for your help... everyone.

 

ok ya i hate these kids that drive around in some beater that think there the shiz. if you got something nice, sure show her off but just dont be cocky about it.

 

thirteen

 

No, the 5.3 was also offered as an option in the 2009 impala SS....303hp. I don't know of any other car running that motor, and it may be the truck block used in it, but it does carry a car classification. I'm not sure what year they began doing the v8 impala's again.

 

I understand that.....but I was referencing a newer LT1 or even LS1 motor compared to older style block.

 

a newer 5.3 and LS1 are the same style motor, and would be about the same to install...

hence, an older 327 and 350 would be the same.....it does NOT cost anymore to build an older 327 than a 350.....it's all the same parts minus different piston wrist pin location and the stroke.....to put it in a nutshell.

It doesn't matter what you build, if you're looking for 300 or so horse, you could install a LS1, an 60's 327, or you could install the New camaro V6 with 304hp and be way different.....so the type of motor doesn't really matter, it's how the motor operates...(i.e. small block that revs high (such as making power above 5k rpm), or a big block that makes the power on the bottom end (never turning over 4k rpm)....also more along the lines of how much cost a particular motor is to build, the ease of installation, its compatibilty with other parts and other things like five7kid brought up, such as emissions.
Everyone has their own idea of what the should build, that's why our cars are all different. You are never going to get everyone to agree on anything. Good example, one person said go LSX, someone else said stay away.
Look at all the options and even write them all out on paper, make a pro/con list or something, compare each scenerio and see which motor fits your driving/racing style, what you want to accomplish with car, how compatible it is with future plans.

 

thanks you make very well points. and a thirdgen with with the new v6 would kinda be unique. so let me get this correct so if i had a 350 super ram it WOULD be emmisions legal correct? or would it just have to be basic fuel injection? because im still thinking a ls1 would be to much for me and i would like to keep stock apperance.

 

well it should just test like normal......now I don't know about different states, but in my state, they test based on the original motor and type of car, not based on the motor that is installed. So you could have an '86 camaro with an LS1 and they will test it like it's an '86 motor in there. You still have to have things like cats and smog pump but other than that, you should be good to go....hope that made sense.

But check your states regulations......cause every state can differ, and you might be able to do things in one state that you can't do in another.

 

ok so just as long as it was efficent as when it came from the fac.? and anything less it's illegal correct? and if i wanna go carb instead of super ram ( which i just found out is EXPENSIVE ) i would need a computed controlled carb and i will be fine correct? i need to look up the emmisions stuff some time.

 

correct, they test based off of factory standard, anything less and you fail the test and cannot register the car or renew registration.
In my state, if you wanna go carb, you just put a carb on, any carb you want, it does NOT need to computer controlled, just needs to pass emision standards during the test (which means you can tune it to pass, it doesn't have to run good, just pass)....they dont' check that stuff here.....but like five7kid was saying, sounds like in his state you would have to have a computer controlled carb.

Look up your stuff and ask around how people are getting around or complying with emissions standard.....see if their is any loopholes. There are a bunch in my state. Like classic car plates, there is no testing emissions if you have these plates.

 

ok thanks any suggested carbs? or do you think it would be better for me to run fuel injection?

 

well, I prefer fuel injection on my camaro, but run a carb on my mustang (chevy motor with 625cfm carter AFB)

Fuel inj. is expensive to purchase.......and I'm not as good with carb stuff as the fuel inj. stuff, but a 650cfm or so carb should be suffecient. of course edelbrock and holley both make good carbs.....a lot of guys around here i've noticed run quadra-jet carb and have good luck with them (something to do with good throttle response from small primaries, and good power from big secondaries)....
one of the carb guys will probably chime in here and give better info though.....

 

thanks i also prefere FI ( maybe thats all i have had ) it just seems more pratical but i dont know much about both though. whats the diffrence in price?

 

well there is a ton of different combos for both fel injection and carb....ranging greatly in price.
while overall fuel injection is more expensive....just depends on what setup you want to run.

you could do the same thing bout picking a block as what you want to put on it...carb or fuel injection, cam size, head size and brand, etc....make a list of parts and prices and compare everything. it's hard to guesstimate prices of such a broad range...sorry.

 

but if you run a basic carb setup, you should be able to hit 300 hp relatively easy, good set of heads ($1000), cam ($300 roller), intake (150), carb (250), short block (1000).....something like that

 

ok how much more ( estimate ) is it for FI if everything is done properly agaist a properly built carbed engine.
thanks for all your help really appreciate it.

 

say for a basic setup....couple thousand maybe tops.....of course you could run most setups with a different cam, add the intake ($800), throttle body (250), injectors (300), tuning (300 or more) and such....and any wiring or electronics needed which could be expensive. if you already have let's say a TPI computer and wiring harness, that makes it cheaper, but I believe for like a holley stealth ram complete system with computer, throttle body, intake, injectors, harness and such is like in the neighborhood of three grand.

 

dang how much cheaper usally is used stuff? i might just go carbed it seems plenty cheaper i guess i have to to think bout it.

 

carb is for sure cheaper.....we built our chevy powered mustang that way....using a lot of used parts, like a used carb and intake....we had a set of camel hump heads rebuilt and ported, flat tappet cam (cheap new), rebuilt the stock bottom end (turned crank, resized rods, new pistons, bore .030 over), it has a stock distributor, stock water pump, etc. etc.
The intake, heads, carb, headers, cam, and such are a good combo......the dyno pull ran out 300 horses, not too bad for a cheaper build....I know a lot of stock stuff, especially the bottom end, but it doesn't need too fancy of stuff, not making tons of power, for sure could daily drive it.