Well, now that I'm up the creek without a paddle I'm sitting here wondering what to do with the car now. In case anyone doesn't know last sunday (Jan 3) I was driving my son home to his mother's and on my way home the car started to steam up more than it normally was. I have been already fighting an overheating problem that I think was because of the carburetor that I was using, but this time it was a sudden change in behavior in the engine and TONS of steam from the exhuast...not to mentioned it was overheating really bad. I finally got it home after about 5 minutes of driving and parked it in front of my garage. Pulled it into the garage the next day and started to slowly tear it apart. Today I finally pulled the head off of the drivers side and seen the head gasket mangled on the #7 cylinder as I had expected. What I wasn't expecting was the 040 over pistons hidden in the block and the damage in the top of the #7 cylinder walls. Looking at the rest of that cylinder I don't think that the pitting that I seen near the top is from the overheating, but it is possble. Either way, I'm sitting here having a hard time deciding on what I want to put in the car now. I could build a 383 that I've always wanted, or I could follow with the crowd and go with an LS1, or...I could go with a more recent drooling puddle...the LS7. Ever since I seen some specs on it in some GMHP magazines I've been wanting one really bad. After looking at summit and trying to "build" a 383 there I'm really wondering if a 'junkyard' LS7 isn't a bad idea. Yeah I know that I'd have to change my T5 for the favored T56 but that is something that I've already been wanting to do anyways. Since I'll be gone for the next year going to Afghanistan I'll have time to sit on the computer and just look for the motor that I want to buy. My question to you guys is this...what would you do? and why? A yard motor from an 06 Z06 I think should be fine enough for what I want to do and I'm starting to think that it would still cost me less than building the 383 that I've always wanted before. Needless to say I don't like to spend money any more than I have to, so do I wait just a little bit and get me an LS7 and find a T56? or just build a 383 and end up having to put another damn automatic transmission in again?

 

why not a 383 t56 cvombo? thats what i going to be doing

 

it all depends on what you want to do with the car. i staerted to build a pretty rowdy 383 for my 82 and i picked all my parts carefully and with me doing the assembling and letting the machineshop do there work i wouldve had about 3500-3700 in the motor. ive decided to abandon the project and throw it in my old pickup to pull with and im going with a ls style mainly for the fuel injection and driveability.

 

I'd do either of the LS motors, just depends on your goals and $. There's just too much potential for the LS's as far as power per similar spec parts between them and the 1st gen SBC stuff.

 

what he said!

 

I want to really use the car on the solo tracks and ocassional drag strip, and of course still drive it on the road. Shouldn't be too hard to do with any of the motors, but the lure of the 427 is really hard to ignore, LOL
Either way I go it will be a T56 trans behind it, I'm just trying to decide which motor I want to spend the money on.

Could someone educate me a little on the LS7's ignition? How much electronics is left on the motor if I drop a carb on the top of it instead of using the EFI? What kind of sensors would I be using to control an ignition box? something like a MSD 7A or whatever.

 

depends on how much power your wanting drivability and fuel mileage gets worse on a old school sbc imo.

 

I would just get it running and drive it until you get back from afganistan. pocket all that money and plan it out while you're over there. I'm sure your plans will change four or five times before you get home.

I went to Iraq and came back with a Z28 lol...

LSX ftw

 

Depending on your overall goals with the car and the amount of money you have would determine the end result (same thing as everyone else stated)

A ls7 would be, IMO very different and cool, but the money into that would be exteme. A LS1 is kinda overdone IMO. My main choice would have to be a 383....good power all around, proven combo, and probably the cheapest to build.

 

As far as I know, all LS motors have the same ignition system or at least the same design. An MSD type of box really isn't needed for the LS stuff since you basically have 8x less stress for any one coil compared to the SBC stuff. MSD does make a controller to work the ignition if you really want to put a carb. on it, but thats a backwards step you'd be making in my book. If you're going LS, you might as well also use it as a cheap way of also using EFI specially if you're using a stock motor with a stock ECM.

 

I'm starting to think of continuing with my plans of a 383. At least I'd be able to bolt it up to the trans right now, although I'd never be able to drop the pedal all the way until I replace it with the T56. Plus I'd be able to use my current intake, or sell it and change to the 86- setups depending on the heads that I get for that build.
With the LS7 I'd have to get a T56 before I could ever drive it again, which that would put it past me leaving for the ghan. With the MSD boxes I'd still need an ECM for the LS7, right? A carb on top of the LS7 doesn't bother me at all since I'm changing the fuel on the car. Another bad thing is that if I went with the LS7 I would still have to spend more money to build the motor up later on to get the power that I want. At least with the 383 I'd be able to build it the way I want it from the start and end up spending less.
Waiting till after I get back doesn't work near as good as it sounds right now just because we have another baby coming right before I leave so I need the car running before I leave so that might be my determining factor for the time being.

 

Well I've been asking myself this question for awhile now and decided to stick with an SBC for the time being. Why? Simple. I know the TPI setup better and it will be easier for me to reuse it. It is expensive and somewhat time consuming to make power with TPI, but I don't have as much electrical wiring to do. Plus I don't need to use different motor mounts, or get a 4L60E transmission. I've got three 700R4's right now so I can simply build up one of them and use that. For me it was really three things that lead me to this decision. First it's easier to go SBC in terms of installation. Second it retains a "stock" or near stock appearance under the hood. Three I've already got an extra Chevy 350 and extra 700R4 transmissions.

 

That is also anothe big reason that I'm thinking of, I just went through the effort to pull the TBI off the carb. I can do TPI easily, I just don't want to put all that wiring back in. That and the fact that parts are much more expensive for motors that are TPI stock. I won't go back to an automatic unless I absolutely have to, so I'll be saving the money while I'm overseas to buy a new T56 trans and the bellhousing that I'll have to use.
If I stay SBC at least everything that I have already will work on the new motor, headers, carb(though I'll have to buy a larger one now), intake manifold, and distributor. I could sell those parts to help fund the new motor, but then I'd be stuck having to buy new ones for the new motor. Sometimes I wish they had an aluminum block for the gen 1s.

 

Build a Dart Little M block 406 and never look back.

 

at that point, why stop at a 406? build a 427, 434, 454 sbc

I would go with the lsx choice personally. There is just so much to gain with that platform. great power numbers and good fuel mileage, something thats hard to get from a sbc.

 

Id go for some basic LS engine and build it up to whatever power level you want. In the end, itd cost less than the purchase price of the LS7, plus being a good bit more common. I cant remember the last time I saw a non crate LS7 for sale

LS1/2 or 6.0 truck engines

If you're considering carbed, go SBC. The LS platform was designed around EFI and takes full advantage of it. If wiring scares you, go aftermarket stand alone. Usually 2-5 hookups and it runs like it was always there. Multiple solutions exist for die-hard carb guys, namely the MSD box and GMPP front cover which accepts a ford dist and installs a traditional coil

 

Just going by what some of the bigger builders in the industry are building i am going to say the 406 is the SBC drag motor of choice.

 

It's not that the wiring scares me at all, if I can wire a helicopter from scratch, or do battle damage repair on the Apache then the car is the least of my scares. I'm actually going to be completely redoing all the wiring in the car and replace the fuses with circuit breakers either under the hood, or in the center console. I'll also probably be doing a utility relay panel too.
The ECM for the LS series is not that bad at all. My reason is because I'm changing fuel after I get back from the desert and I won't need the electronics except for the purpose ignition. That is why I'm trying to avoid any unnecessary wiring that I'll just be removing later again. That is the biggest reason, aside from the trans, that I'm starting to think just doing a SBC.

 

What do you mean changing fuel?

Unless you are running something wierd like natural gas or diesel, the LS1 PCM can handle it

Anything from very low grade fuel (early 80s) to E85/95 to full alcohol works fine with a decent tune

 

Mortec says:
14102193...87-up...305/350......1.94"/1.5" valves


Can anyone give me any more information? Like what size chambers it has? I know that it is a swirl port from other places I've read and that it has bad flow qualities, but I'm trying to decide to keep these or find new ones if I build the new 383 motor. These are the stock heads from this engine so I'm just trying to decide if I want to reuse them until next year. I could have these heads rebuilt at least cheaper than buying new ones from summit.

 

64cc.

They are decent for a mild engine, but not for a 383.

 

I know that they won't be what the engine really needs, but if it will work enough to run then I might use them until I get back home and buy new heads. I just need to use the car so the wife can have hers back. I'm thinking of replacing the block and rotating assembly right now and bolting these heads in place. Also because I still have T5 and I don't want to blow the trans up, so this will be a good power restricter until I return. I'll get heads, intake, better cam, T56, and driveshaft when I get back from the sandbox.

 

why not combine a few of your ideas, i have an unassembled ls1 with an eagle forged 383stroker kit in my garage that REALLY needs to find a new home. its actually my girls stuff from an old car she had and her x was starting to build.. and never finished, the block is even machined already, it just needs to be cleaned up a lil (was sitting in her parents garage for a year before it ended up in mine)

you can still do the 383 you always wanted to do , but with the modern abilities that the ls motors offer.

but again, as for ease and simplicity... the old school small block

the ls7 to me just seems like to much $$$ for what your gonna get... like trying to get a lambo dealership to do a factory twin turbo install on a diablo, the $$$ to results balance just isnt there

again, just my

 

If it wasn't for the initail cost to replace everything all at once I'd consider that. Right now I'm thinking of going the old school way just so I can get the car running before the new baby is born because we really need to have two vehicles since the doc we use is 1.5hours away, even though we do live on post. I am selling parts from an old car that should get me most of the money, and if not then I have the taxes coming up. Both put together isn't enough to get the setup right for any of the LS series motors before the baby is born. I'll save some of my deployment money to use for the trans and other things so that in the end the only thing that I'll have to replace is the motor, instead of everything at once.

 

So far I've found both head gaskets damaged after this episode. When I pulled the passenger side head I finally went and bought myself a valve spring compressor so that I could take the heads apart and take a good look at everything. And I'm very glad that I did because I found that every single exhuast valve was pitted real bad and I was't sure if they would clean up. I debated on whether or not to have them reground and finally decided to do so. I had all that done today and started to put them back together. I started with the passenger side head and so far all the valves seated well in the head with the slap-check. The only one that was kind of iffy was the #6 exhuast but I think it'll be fine. Tomorrow when I go back home I'll work on putting the driver's side head back together and clean what I can off the block in preparation of putting the engine back together. I might take some scotch-brite to the #7 cylinder where there is some pitting and see how much I can clean up from the discoloration that is also in that cylinder.

Unless anyone tells me otherwise I'm going to use some engine flush on this motor to try to clean out the loose particles and any remnants of the coolant. Then I will change the oil again in a couple hundred miles to be sure that every bit of coolant is gone.

 

Why do you say that?

edit: nevermind that dumb question, i just went back and reread the conversation and remembered what you were talking about.

 

Well, I finished most of the work that was left on the car today, but I still didn't fire it up yet. I did leave the pump off since I don't want fuel in the carb yet and ran ran the starter for a bit so that I could get the oil pump to recirculate the new oil that I put in. I also added a can of seafoam to the oil to have a long term cleaner in it, then I'll run the motor flush through it right before I change the oil again. I do need to find a file so that I can make my throttle cable fit in the Summit bracket that I bought. And I need some suggestions for a new air cleaner since my old one won't fit with the 1/2" spacer that I want to put on it. Last time I had the hood on, right before I started taking the motor apart, I checked clearances and everything fit without the spacer and carb stud. I would like to get a Spectre cold air type but I want to be sure that it fits under the hood before I buy one.

 

I know the T-56 is used with the LS1's, but is it rated to handle 500+ hp and 470+ lb-ft from an LS7? If I'm not mistaken all of the newer LS motors use the TR-6060. Looking forward to hearing on your progress.

 

Have it rebuilt to Viper specs (IIRC, that includes billet steel shift forks, stainless synchros, a larger main shaft, and a larger output shaft, and some other stuff) and you'll be fine well into the 9's or better. I know two guys with their LS1 T56s built that way and they both make well over 600hp. Tranny's seem to be holding up just fine.

 

When I go to the T56 I will have it built before I put it in, or just buy it built. Either once I put it in there I don't want to have to pull it back down just to replace stuff in it, or upgrade, I'd rather wait untill it's done before I put it in the car.

 

LS series motors are better then any Gen 1 anything. A stroker can be built to make big power, but the LS1 and LS7 respond AMAZINGLY well to even just the bolt-ons.

I'd say the LS7 is hands down the best. It's a larger displacement motor then the 383 or the LS1 and it's alot lighter then a cast block.

 

Unfortunately the cost of swapping an LSx engine into a third gen exceeds the cost of the small block. Building and swapping in an SBC is easier and cheaper. There are many parts designed to make the swap easier which add to the cost considerably. Beyond that there is the added steps. Notching the K-member, changing the motor mounts, the wiring, etc.

I can build an SBC that will make more power than most LSx's for less money. I'd rather have an LSx. Don't get me wrong. I've got an LS2 in my GTO and it's a damned fine engine. The throttle response and the flat torque curve make the vehicle amazing to drive.

 

I agree 100%. The price of the LS motors is expensive, for the price of an LS1, harness and ECU I could build a lot more power. On an unlimited budget I would choose the LS7, on a high budget I would choose the LS1, and on my budget I'd choose a big block haha. On a fair budget I would build a 383; can build a very respectable amount of power for a few grand.

 

$4900 you can have a all alum 427/434 sbc. that will run with all the parts your 3 gen came with.. (yes you will need a few other things..but whats another $1000 bucks

 

First of all, I think the LS1 and LS2 engines are good engines if you just want to swap the engine and call it a day with maybe a few simple mods like rocker arms or camshaft. Its an easy way to have a simple 350 hp to scoot around town in an outrun a few hondas.

Me personally i would not bother with the LS1, its way too easy to build an SBC to outperform an LS1 in every respect exept for weight. This includes fuel milage. LS1's get great fuel econony because of gearing (and EFI, but you can and should EFI an SBC too) T56's have double overdrive, you can roll at 70mph at like 1600rpm in a stock geared vehicle. The T56's also have skip-shift which sole purpose is to increase fuel economy in city driving by forcing you to shift from 1st to 4th. You can get the same fuel economy in well built SBC with EFI by swapping in a T56 too.

Now... IF you already had a vehicle with an LS1 in it, then of course I would build one up because you already have the engine, tranny, ECM, etc, etc. Now, the cost of purchasing an LS1 to put into a Thirdgen and then building it up for higher performance is going to cost alot more than building up an SBC.

LS1's came stock with ~350hp... you can buy SBC 350 crate engines that make that same ammount of power with shitty heads and mild flat tappet cams and a carb for cheap.

No stock LS series heads even come close to AFR's SBC offerings, AFR are making miracles happen with 23 degree SBC heads. Hell even AFR's LS series heads dont flow that much better than thier SBC heads in the same runner size range.

As for the LS7... What you should do is buy a 400ci-434ci shortblock based on a new casting like Dart Little M, Dart SHP or GM Bowtie, then get yourself a set of AFR 210cc - 220cc heads and a nice EFI intake (Stealth Ram, Miniram) with a Megaquirt wideband setup. Wham bam, thank you maam 500+hp EASY, get a T56 from an LT1 and you will be set. You could do all of this for way less than the price of a Crate LS7 will be.

 

Another way to look at it,

LS7 Crate engine = $14,000, makes 505hp

lets look at an SBC:
CNC Motorsports 427 shortblock = $3500 http://www.cnc-motorsports.com/product.asp?ProdID=25429
AFR 220cc heads = $2100 http://www.airflowresearch.com/index.php?cPath=24_115
Roller cam and Lifters = $700 (less if you go solid roller)
Holley Stealth ram Intake, Injectors and Throttle Body = ~$1000
Prebuilt Megasquirt and Wideband O2 Sensor = $700 (less if you build it yourself)
Throw in another $1000 for odds and ends like waterpump, oilpan, etc

****, thats "only" $9000 and its going to easily net you more than 500hp depending on the cam you choose.

 

I agree completely.

 

I'd add at least another grand to that shortblock for upgrades that would make it more likely to survive 500 HP.

I'd take the driveability of an LSx engine over a Gen I of the same HP.

 

what moves the car is Torque. and the Last lingenfelter eng i was looking at made 490 fpt from 1600 rpm all the way up to 6000prm. (560fpt)at 6000rpm
that was just a 420 cid with EFI.
and you can drive it every day. even a school girl could drive it,

most of us guys who are going Bigger CID have alot of the Good parts.
i have every thing but the alum block.. (ADD $1500) to my order and it's there..my short block now with shipping came to $3400. (427) this upgrade would drop another 90 lbs off the car.. and with an eng making 500fpt all the way in the RPM Rang.. and sitting at 3000lbs with me in it..
thats a fun ride

this last upgrade was only going to be 4 maby $5000.. i spent over $11.000, in the last 3 months and im out of cash for the upgrades..lol so im going to have to Dig up another few bucks to get it done...dont know what i was thinking...
(might have to go back to work) to make money..

 

ever consider an LT1, lower initial cost, better performance than a gen I motor, from what I can see it's an easy swap too, nice response to bolt on's, many third gen parts work on it too (headers motor mounts ect), low initial cost. I just bought an LT1 4l60e parts car for 1500, with plenty of goodies to go along with it, 4 wheel discs, brembo front calipers, decent interior ect.

Just a though-

Eric J.

 

Agree. I'd go LSx while you can.

LS7 crate is expensive for what you get and you can make same power with stock LS1 shortblock with heads/cam

430whp is NOT uncommon for a streetable heads cam ls1. Some go even higher.

Good forged 347 LS1 with decent cam/heads/compression can do near 500whp and still be very driveable.

Most hot 383 small blocks are in the 400whp range.