what would you all think my 1/4 drag time would be and maybe expected horse power?...i know this is a stupid question but im just curious as to what someone with experience would say ..ive got

350 30 over
block decked
flat top pistons with valve releaf
vortec heads (64cc) comp ratio should be 10.5-1
edelbrock super victor intake
gasket matched from intake to heads
stock hei dizzy
i think cam in 472 284 (ish) flat tappet
double roller timing set
700 holley
4" cowl hood
shortey headers that go to glasspacks ...thats it lol
th350
3:73 gears
of corse no emissions equipment or a/c crap

tires
im not sure what size in front but there skinny lol
rear i think 245/50 maybe 235/50

only thing to reduce weight is rear seat is taken out and no spare tire junk


oh ya forgot accel armor shield plug wires
e3 spark plugs
and royle purple

 

Not sure but that cam is way too small to need an intake like you have. My cam is bigger than yours and I'm really wanting the Performer RPM airgap.

 

ya im going with a bigger cam when i have the trans rebuilt with shift kit and stall coverter...i still have a stock converter

 

Bigger cam and you'll overwhelm the Vortec heads. Yes, you can modify them to take more lift, but more lift doesn't mean flow will necessarily follow.

Either tone down the intake, or build more engine to go under it.

 

should i go with the rpm air gap then? and stick with my cam?...what kinda numbers do you think im looking at?

 

The Performer RPM would be the better choice.

Should be low-13's/high-12's, depending upon stall, gears, and traction.

 

its going to be a few months before i get my trans work done but do you think with the th350 a holeshot 3000 from b&m would be too much? i do stil want to drive the car on the weekends ..sometimes

 

Run it like it is, it will be fine.

Funny how anyone could recommended a RPM over an RPM air gap or vice versa when a guy like Joe Sherman, EMC winner and renowned chevy builder who is also a huge edelbrock fan, says on his dyno there is ZERO difference between the two manifolds. Thats right Zero. Don't believe the hype. He also says a vic Jr is also worth more power and a better track time. You just need to have enough stall. I wouldn't go with B&M and i would probably run closer to a 4000stall.

I want to also point out that in the engine master challenge the RPM limit has usually been 6500rpm and the way the contest is scored makes it so that a motor peaking above this will end up losing to much down low and will be down on score. And yet you never ever see any builder building with a dual plane intake. Hmmmmm......

I have run SBC's with both style intakes.

 

True, a good single plane will usually have higher peak numbers on a dyno. And for a dedicated track car it is usually the better option. However I have also seen numerous articles about the air-gap in particular where the overall numbers before 5000 rpm's were higher. If I had a motor that only revved to 6000 or even 6500 (like mine and the OP), I'm more worried about idle to 5000 rpms than I am 5000 to 6000.

 

The Super Victor is a 3500-8000 RPM powerband intake. The Victor Jr. is similar, 3500-7000. You had better have at least 4000 RPM stall with either of them or you're going to be hurt vs. a Performer RPM. If you aren't going over 6500 RPMs, there is no need to go with a single plane.

BTW, I wasn't recommending an RPM over an RPM Air Gap (if you were addressing your comments to me). I was using "Performer RPM" generically - pick which ever you want, Air Gap or non-air gap style. On a dyno, you aren't likely to see a difference between the two. If you're going round robin at the track, the Air Gap will probably do a little better. On the street, you won't see a significant difference. FWIW, I'm running an Air Gap on the '57, and since I'm running E85, wish I had a non-air gap version.

 

First off i want to state i misread that it was a super vic, thought it was a vic jr.

Magazine articles rpm to rpm comparison is an over simplification done to confuse buyers into buying what the advertiser is pushing. Starting with the basics a motor given its long block build will make a certain amount of torque. By changing cams, intakes ect we can change the rpm that the motor makes this torque, thereby changing the engines useful powerband.

With that in mind we know when we change from a dual plane to a single we are changing our powerband. To accommodate this there will need to be a change in converter and/or rear gear ratio. Given the setup is right your 2000rpm dualplane now compares in actually driving to 2200. If you look at the comparison charts like that you will see the single plane never gives up any power in its useable powerband and has surpassed the dual by 4500 or lower. This is how the vehicle drives so its IMO a more realistic and fair comparison.

 

My guess is that you will run low 14's to very high 13's in the quarter with the current configuration. You could be quicker with better matched parts and attention to suspension and quick launch.

I agree with built91Z28 and five7kid. A good dual plane intake will compliment the rest of the engine and make the car more responsive and quicker under most conditions. Peak horsepower may win dyno competitions but it doesn't win races. You want to make the most average power where the engine will spend most the time while accelerating. The Super Victor intake is going to make the engine accelerate more slowly most the time, and then provide a little extra zip in the top end (maybe). A good dual plane intake will provide more average power throughout the speed range the engine will operate - and that will make the car accelerate better. Considering you have a 3 speed transmission, it is even more important that you build a nice broad power band, because you're going to be needing it with the gear ratios in the TH350.

You have a street car. Keep the stall speed civil. What's considered civil is subjective. Most people would suggest 2500 rpm or less with your engine. Some people are willing to put up with 3000 rpm. 4000 rpm, as suggested above, is just ridiculous for an engine as mild as yours, and will make the car unpleasant to drive on a regular basis. An economical and decent torque converter is good for most people. A great torque converter is expensive but can make a lot of difference if the car is set up to take advantage of it. I don't think you are building a high end race car. It seems that you're just having some fun. If so, then save some money and buy an economical but decent torque converter. Most companies that sell torque converters have a tech help line and will select a converter based on your wants and needs. Just so you know, I don't even have a high end torque converter even with my supercharged 468 big block. Just a good economical TCI with anti-ballooning plates. It's just a hobby, right? We're not professional racers.

Honestly, I would scrap the glass pack mufflers and put on full 3" exhaust with chambered muffler. You are actually making less torque and overall power with mufflers hanging off the headers. And another plus is that you won't die from carbon monoxide poisoning when idling at long stop lights. There's a good reason why the exhaust dumps clear of the car at the back.

 

How is this a mild build? 10.5:1 with 284 over the nose is mild? With those vortecs which flow better then any old school head flows he should be in the neighbourhood of 400-450HP. Since when is this pedestrian power?

What does your 468 supercharged big block have to do with anything? A supercharged engine shouldn't need much stall, especially a big block.

If it was an all out race build i would have recommended a 5000 stall converter.

The original poster is talking about driving it the occasional weekend. And you would have him build it like a daily. Meh...

 

You don't need to quote the entire just previous post.

If you put his build on a scale of what constitutes mild to wild, that is a mild street build. Doesn't mean it won't be fun or produce good results, but the basic content and performance level is "mild street."

I gave the example of what torque converter I use because even though I'm making a lot more power and have a lot more invested in my car I still use an affordable off-the-shelf torque converter. Just trying to encourage the OP to not overspend and save some money. That was pretty darn obvious in my previous post. It really looks like you're just grasping for things to argue about.

If it was an all out race build needing a 5000 rpm stall converter, then it wouldn't have Vortec heads. Your comment is neither here nor there. You seem to have bits and pieces of knowledge but don't know how to put it together in a useful way. Just sayin' what it looks like from where I sit....

To the OP, five7kid is a very experienced, smart, and helpful person. He's given me great advice over the years. If you follow his advice then you can't go wrong.

 

How is mild to wild a scale? Thats two things. How much power do you think a 350 will make? While this isn't an all out race build, its not mild either.

You can buy an off the shelf 4000 stall converter. They aren't even that expensive. Or you can get one from a custom builder. They are actually sometimes cheaper then a big name.

An all out race build wouldn't have vortec heads, nor would it be 10:5 to 1. You seemed to imply a 4000 stall converter was for an all out race build. I simply said an all out race build would use a 5000 stall converter.

I could try to draw comparisons to my own motors but since my 350 is running S/R heads and a milder cam its not really a fair comparison. Since my 383 is 11:1 with aluminum 215 race heads and a solid roller cam it wouldn't be a fair comparison either.
But since i find either motor pretty liveable on the street i figured i would chime in about what is and is not streetable.

 

|-------------|-------------|-------------|
MILD ---> (linear progression) ---> WILD


Mystery solved.

 

Name calling. Nice. My computer gliched out and see you change that.

Its funny though because you only prove my point. 1-10 is a scale. Mild to wild not so much. A 190 hp truck motor is mild, a 600hp race build is wild. This guys lets say 400hp build is there fore mild according to you? That seems unfair and to be honest somewhat insulting. Especially when you manage to mention your blown big block and your much bigger budget.

I am sorry i show some support for a guys build that he obviously put time and money into and has some pride in instead of pissing all over it by just regurgitating what car craft says his build should be.

But this is just one dumbass' opinion.

 

No offense to the OP but I think his motor is fairly mild too. The cam specs he lists are 472 284. I'm guessing that is a .472" lift and 284 duration. With only .472 of lift, that 284 duration is not going to be at .050". So that 284 is advertised duration which is probably near 220 duration @ .050". That means that cam is fairly close to this one. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HRS-110991/ This cam does not need anything close to a 5000 stall. Hell I have aluminim heads with a 2.05 intake and a solid roller setup and I dont think I'm making much over 400 horse and I consider my motor a mild build.

 

thanks every1 very much for responses any knowledge i can rake in the better its so nice to see what other ppl have to say about a build...i guess im going to be getting a new intake i found this one used for kinda cheap ill save it for when i go 383 but someone mentions something about suspension changes that could help my time what do you all suggest?

 

Having more details on the cam would be helpful. It sounds like it has a lot of advertised duration for the lift, which often means it is made more for the sound it makes at idle than for power. It may be a fine cam, but more specs (intake and exhaust duration both advertised and at 0.050" lift, intake and exhaust lift, LCA at least) would be helpful.

Regardless, the Super Victor sounds like too much intake manifold for the rest of the engine and your combo. Especially with a stock converter.

 

284 over the nose equals 220@.050"? Not from comp.
My comp xe268H-10 hydraulic flat tappet is 224/231@.050 with 477/480 lift.
My comp solid roller is advertised at 268 but specs out at 236/236@.050" and .600lift.
What the hell is with the 5000stall converter comment. Sometimes i wonder if some of you guys can read.

If you have aluminum heads and a solid roller cam and you are only making 400hp, I am going to go out on a limb and say you shouldn't be giving build up advice. Talk about mismatched parts. But i checked out your cardomain site, and your parts aren't mismatched. If that motor is making under 450hp with accessories there is something wrong. Super Chevy did almost the exact same build and made close to 500. Exact same heads. Those heads are good for a little over 500hp.

I agree with five7kid that more details are needed about the cam, but fair to say that cam is not mild. 280 over the nose used to generally be considered about as big as you can go in a street car before you start to get vacuum issues. Again it depends on the manufacturer.

I also agree the super vic is a bit big. But i go back to this idea that the dual plane is killing the single below 5000. Thats simply not the case. Once you hit about 3000 rpm the single will take off like a jet. So if idle to 3500rpm is important then change the manifold. Otherwise i see no harm is trying out the super vic. Definitely needs a converter to match. Like i said i would go with something around 3800 given provided specs in a car i was only going to drive on the occasional weekend. If you are going to be in traffic all day with it even a 3000 is going to be annoying. So why compromise to end up with something that still is crappy for commuting and comes up short on performance? Doesn't make sense to me.

 

the cam is an erson the specs are
grind hi flow ah
108 lobe separation angle
overlap 68.00
intake opens 34.00 exhaust closes 34.00
intake closes 70.00 exhaust opens 70.00
running clearance 0.000 0.000 [hot]
valve lift (int/exh) 0.472 0.472
duration (int/exh) 284 284
@.050 tappet rise

overlap 4.00
intake opens 2.00 exhaust closes 2.00
intake closes 38.00 exhaust opens 38.00
duration intake 220.0 duration exhaust 220.0
lobe lift intake 0.315 lobe lift exhaust 0.315
intake center line 108
rocker arm ratio 1.50

hope that helps guys thanks for all the help again!

 

Hmm interesting cam.

Desktop dyno seems to like it. Shows a peak of 420hp at 6000 and 414 at 6500 given all your posted specs.

 

cool! where can i get the desktop dyno?

 

You can find it bootlegged on the net easily enough. I have had it for years and the site i got it from is long gone.
Comp offers camquest for free on their website. It is basically the same program except you can't enter your own cam specs.

 

First off when I said around 400 HP for my motor that was a guess on my part. I have not been to a track nor have I had the motor or car dyno'ed. I'm not sure what you or him meant by "over the nose" either, I was just going off the cam specs in the link I posted which seems to be very close to what the OP said. Both cams even have the 108 LSA. The link I posted also says a power band from 1700 to 5700. With a powerband like that, I would run a convertor between 2500 and 3000 max. I do agree with you that even a 3000 is annoying in traffic. I had one in my car and switched to a 2500. My car is a weekend street car though.

 

Using numbers produces an ordinal scale. Using labels produces a categorical scale. Again, you're just hunting for ANYTHING to argue about whether it's this or something else. You'll have to play that game all by yourself.

 

I believe it was you that started the argument. Also the name calling.

But i must admit this post takes the cake. You really do make me laugh. A ordinal scale is a CATERGORICAL SCALE!!!! LMFAO!!!!

"
Scale of Measurement

There are four types of scales that appear in social sciences: nominal, ordinal, interval, and ratio scales. They are categorized into two groups: categorical and continuous scale data. Nominal and ordinal scales are categorical data; interval and ratio scales are continuous data"

http://www.socialresearchmethods.net.../Cho/intro.htm

 

That's a small cam, the one in my Mustang is bigger than that...and doesn't require a stall at all with it, a 4000 stall on the street sucks royally and not really fun to drive at all....at the track yes...on the road, no.

I'll agree with others in the post, that is going to be a mild build, shouldn't require a bunch of stall just a good gear in it, probably wouldn't make 400hp out of it.

And, desktop dyno doesn't come close to real world numbers, I've done it with the my LT1, LS1, and my 302 in my Mustang, and the numbers are nowhere close to what they dynoed at.

 

Okay, SeanW, this really is my last post in reply to you. The last one was just a warning. And I'm not making this post to argue with you, but to make peace.

As far as I can tell, we are both wrong. And for sure, we're both being ****. "Mild to Wild" is discrete categorical data that can be used to produce a nominal or ordinal scale (there is no such thing as a categorical scale, like we both said). But words are hard to use for statistical analysis. Assigning each value a number, like "1 to 10" allows us to convert the words to data that is easier to use for statistical analysis. But ultimately, they mean the same thing. So if we combine together both our ideas, then we can take words, convert them to numbers, and use those number to see statistical patterns that might be useful to interpret the data. But that doesn't have anything to do with helping the OP, nor is it the topic of this thread, and it's definitely not of any interest to anybody that will read this over the next 10 years. So..... let's just quit and get back to car topics and helping the OP.

 

I don't claim to be a number cruncher, i am a diesel tech not statistics analyst. I only skimmed that article after quickly googling your use of terminology because it seemed obvious to me there was a lack of legitimacy to your post. Even though i misspoke by saying "categorical scale" instead of "scale comprised of categorical data" I think the point was made.

As far as desktop dyno no its not dead on accurate. That doesn't mean it isn't a useful tool in predicting how induction and cam changes will affect a motors power band. It certainly has its limitations but in my experience it has predicted peak HP/rpm accurately. To clarify I am not saying the HP number is accurate, i mean you could lose 10HP on misgapped rings alone, just the rpm its peaking at. I wonder if anyone else has observed this as well?

My reaction to the cam numbers when i first saw them posted was wow, that is really small. That is why i ran them through DD. I compared them to some other flat tappets i had on file and i was surprised to see it was pulling higher then bigger(at .050") 110ş cams and making more HP. I guess the 108ş makes it perform a lot bigger then it is.

I also noted that predictably the motor picked up about 50hp by swapping to a solid roller.

With that huge intake you need quite a bit of stall if you want it to actually perform. The OP seemed to suggest he was looking for something barely streetable. I paraphrasing here but i seem to remember a comment about " i have to drive it on weekends sometimes...maybe" and then a little smiley. I took that mean he was looking for it to be a little rough around the edges.

 

rough around the edges is correct ive always wanted a prostreet car but thats goin to have to wait but this will take its place for a while...the machinist suggested this cam due to the stock converter i am running...ill be getting the new converter shift kit and cam as soon as the funds are available once again guys thank you very much for all the suggestions and interest in helping out ..just gos to show we are all car guys !

 

Having power is fun, but you have to be able to put the power to the ground through the tires in order to accelerate. I suggest you start a new thread in the suspension forum and ask for advice on how to get traction for a quick launch. If you can put distance on somebody right at the start, then you've already won the race in many cases. It takes a lot of extra horsepower to run somebody down from behind and pass in a short distance. You're better off getting out front at the start.

 

Slowmaro87, I think that Qwk-trip and five7kid have steered you in a very good direction! Listen to them and you will be good to go! I just wanted to ad a few places for you to go online that you may find interesting. Go to TCI racing calculators and you will find calculators for 1/4 mile times, gear ratio, horsepower, carb sizing and much much more. Also for cam selection a free cool software program to use is Comp Cams Camquest 6 which you can download from their site to your PC or laptop and is a good reference to get the average guy going in the right direction and to see first hand what duration, lift(with any given headflow), LSA, and centerline does to your power curve. Hope this helps and good luck on your build!

 

thank you very much!!!....im checking those sites out rite now