327sleeper88

well i finally decided on a motor for my 88 rs. its a short deck 555 bbc. i was originally going to put in a 327 screamer, but realized the a bbc would be a much better decision in the long run. much more power potential in the future as well thanks to a Dart Big M.

this is what i have for the short block so far.
dart big m (currently at machine shop)
Lunati sledgehammer 4340 non-twist forged crank
Howards Cams Ultimate Duty Billet Connecting Rods.
Srp High compression dome pistons
JE pro seal rings



I figured that i would make a stout bottom end for use with nitrous later, and/or higher rpm's

The pistons are 2618 alloy, the stronger of the two forgings available (4032 being the other)

They are SRP with a compression distance of 1.270, so they are nitrous friendly. they have big 33cc domes, so i should have enough compression to help with the thin air up here. i will still run on pump gas, but will use race gas for nitrous use.

in order to help prevent any possibility of detonation, i used some 300 and 600 grit sandpaper to smooth all the edges and corners out. the whole top of the piston is really smooth.



Before




After




they look all scratched up, but they feel like glass.

327sleeper88

The block is currently at the machine shop, and is getting a .005" piston to wall clearance. it is also getting decked .015 to give me a good quench distance. (.005 deck clearance, .039 head gasket thickness)

since the last motor i had was giving me all sorts of problems with oil control, i am setting every clearance to my preference. When i bring the crank in, i will get the main and rod clearance set to .0025-.003". (if anyone thinks differently, please say so).

And since this a relatively expensive motor, i got a good oil pump. It is a Moroso Billet spur gear oil pump. High volume and pressure. It had thrust bearing on both gears' bottoms to help with longevity. The pressure relief has internal passages the return the oil strait back to the pickup. i personally think it is a great pump, very well designed.

327sleeper88

Also, i got a fully kicked out oil pan from Moroso. It has a windage screen, crank scraper, trap doors, and other baffles to prevent oil from climbing up the sides of the pan during heavy acceleration.







As an addition measure, i will be using an oil filter adapter with NO BYPASS. i don't want ANY junk at all through the oil system at all. I am also using a Canton Racing remote oil filter, it is rated at 6 microns and 45 GPM.

1986Z28OWNER

iTrader: (1)

0.0025"-0.003" is perfect bearing clearance for what your doing, Also have the shop check the pin bore clearances on the small end of the rod and the pin bore in the piston.SRP's usually ship with 0.0004-0.0005" clearance which is to tight, We hone the pin clearances to approx 0.0008" on .927" pins and 0.0009"-0.001" on the .990" pin stuff.

327sleeper88

well i took in the crank today, and all the mains and rods were right on spec. the rear main of the lunati crank was a bit tighter, but that's a good thing. with a Std. set of clevite H series bearings, my tolerances should be right on.

Ill check them again when it comes time to assemble.

In order to have a very good oil system, i am using a Canton Racing Accusump oil accumulator. It is the larger 3qt version, very nice for the price.



I also got a great deal on some Aeroquip -12AN braided hose. It is a brand new continuous 31ft length... all for $150!



Also, i found a deal on some hose ends. Got 6 90*, 6 45* and 6 strait. the angle ones are swivels. got them all for like $160.

1986Z28OWNER

iTrader: (1)

Also, the darts are nice from the factory but can use a bit of help in detailing the oiling system, mainly in the rear main cap and oil filter mount. I would also consider the Durabond coated cam bearings for the dart block, they are the highest quality and nicest fitting ive used yet. Duarbond part numbet GMP-12LT i believe. I am also running a Accusump on my SBC, a good investment IMO. when you say the rear main was tight do you mean Tight as is bearing clearance or a small journal. We usually run our BBC rear mains at around 2.748(0.0002" under min spec) to increase bearign clearances to allow a bit more oil, and because typically it will see the most heat. What kind of CR are you aiming for?

327sleeper88

the rear main is slightly smaller than all the other main journals. when the machine shop mic'd it, they said they like to run more clearance on the rear main anyways. Lunati must have planned that. I have spent some time with a die grinder cleaning up the block, especially the oil passages.

I am aiming for about 12:1 CR. I live in denver, so i need a bump in compression to make some power. also, with a 33cc dome, i don't have to mill the heads any to get my desired compression ratio.

1986Z28OWNER

iTrader: (1)

Thats a big dome, make sure you check dome to chamber clearance. Is not uncommon for crank mfg's to make the rear journals smaller for extra clearance. On the nitro funny car i crew on we run an extra 0.001"-0.0015" bearing clearance because of the heat from the clutch, also make sure you have the needed clearance for the spark plug, sometimes indexing the plugs isnt enough. Sounds like you have most of your bases covered, I you have any questions feel free to ask, I dont know everything but il help you the best i can, this is what i do for a living lol.

327sleeper88

Well, i got some new toys today, as well as a nice finished block back from the machine shop. The HRC ultimate duty billet rods are nice! they are a weight matched set, and only weigh 748 grams.








the block got bored out to 4.560" with .0045" piston to wall clearance with the 2618 alloy pistons.






I mocked up the crank, rod and piston in order to determine how much i needed to get the block decked.





FUBAR phone camera....


I want a .045" quench, and i have a .024" deck clearance. i will get the block decked .020", and with a .041" thick gasket+ .004 deck clearance= .045".

327sleeper88

as for bearings, Dart blocks use special cam bearings, Dura-bond.





The main and rod bearing are Clevite H-series

AlkyIROC

It's good to see a build done properly. Assemble, check measurements, disassemble and get more machining done. There's a big difference between assembling an engine and building an engine. Properly done, the engine gets torn down at least 3-4 times.

The Dart block also doesn't use standard BBC freeze plugs. They're not all the same sizes. If you buy a BBC freeze plug kit, you'll have to buy more plugs.

I believe the cam bearings are designed for a Gen V block.

You also need 0.300" taller lifters. Standard BBC lifters are too short for the lifter bores.

Go back and hit the enter key between each of those pictures. It formats in the forum better if there's a space between the pictures.

327sleeper88

Do you know of a part # from summit for a freeze plug kit?

I was looking at the HRC Pro Max OR Pro Lite direct lube lifters. they are .300" taller, designed for gen VI and aftermarket blocks. Which do you think would be better?


The first engine swap i did was with a 327. upon teardown because of too many problems, i found the the builder took way too many shortcuts. since then, i am determined to build a motor right. i want this to last (relative term), and be able to enjoy it.


And while we are talking about the block:

I Used some stainless steel tube brushed to clean out all the oil passages in the block, i used some carbide cutters to chamfer the distributor bore in the block. I am using an MSD crank-trigger dizzy, it has the option for o-rings to seal the shaft.







I chamfered the bottoms of the lifter bores and the bottoms the the cylinders.

AlkyIROC

I have no idea about a complete and proper kit for the freeze plugs in the Dart block. I bought a BBC kit then went and bought the extras required to fill the different sized holes.

Although those lifters will do fine but for what you're doing, you might as well use some of the top end lifters. Crower Severe Duty are the lifter of choice.

Throw the o-rings away off the distributor. They're not required and will cause you problems.

I wouldn't worry about all that chamfering but you should paint the lifter valley and behind the timing chain cover while the block is still clean to allow the oil to drain back into the pan quickly. I used white rust enamel paint and a 1" foam brush. It took 3 coats to get a good covering. When I had my intake off a couple of years ago, it still looked good.

You're doing a lot more to the engine than I did to mine. After I got my rotating assembly balanced, I took it and the block to a machine shop and had them put it together. I don't have the tooling to put a high end engine bottom end together with all the proper measurements. All they did was the machine work and assemble the rotating assembly. I did everything else. Two winters ago, I rolled in a new set of rod and main bearings because I wasn't too sure if I damaged them or not when my oil light came on after a run. The old bearings were fine but I put new ones in anyway. I use coated bearings for extra protection.

327sleeper88

This is not a race only set up. this is going to see mostly street use, so i want it to last. I don't intend to spin it to the moon, but i am using parts than will allow it to be a race only set up in the future.

I am going to have a compromise when is comes to spring pressures. since its not race only, i will tame the valve springs down a little. i will probably have a rev limiter set to 7000-7300rpm.

will painting the lifter valley really help that much? I figured with the fully kicked out pan plus the 3 qt accumulator that i wouldn't have any issues. but i will clean the block again with some engine degreaser and a pressure washer so that the paint will stick real good. What happens when the paint starts to flake?

Are you talking about the crower lifters with HIPPO? My machine shop said the HRC lifters were real nice. It seams like the crower, HRC, and Comp cams Elite are all on the same playing field. I heard the Isky red zone with the EZ roll option are the top of the line for under a $1000.
I know you can get some awesome lifter kits from jesel that are up to $3000+, but i don't think either of us has a budget for that.

AlkyIROC

If you paint the lifter valley properly, it won't flake. The surface has to be clean and oil free before you paint it. The goal is to get the oil back into the pan as quickly as possible. The surface of the lifter valley doesn't need to be oiled so the painted surface lets the oil drain back faster.

Bigseth

iTrader: (11)

The Big M blocks use a SBC freeze plug kit and a different cam plug. The SBC freeze plug kit is a PE100BR and the rear cam plug is a EPS154B, they should have came with your block though.

1986Z28OWNER

iTrader: (1)

IMO the crower lifters with the HPPO option are the only solid roller lifters i would EVER use, they have proven to be the longest lasting and less prone to spreading than any other lfiter under high spring pressures. Not one of our dart BBC's have we ever painted the lifter valley, we found no matter how much prep is done, the paint will flake. with a proper size oil pan, and a good oiling system it really isnt needed. Also when you do your ebaring clearances i beg of you, do it properly, dont use plastigage. Also dart reccomends using the O-rings on the MSD dist's, we do on all of our engines and they never cause us problems, some say they tear, but if the top edge of the dist hole is chamfered like yours, you shouldnt have any issues. Also with the dart blocks you need to watch your lifter clearance. A lot of the aftermarket lifters require the lfiter bores to be honed, the only ones i have seen that dont out of the box are the Crowers(which usually measure in at around 0.8417") we like to run 0.0015"-0.002" lifter bore clearance, any less and you stand the chance of sticking a lifter. we have seen it happen so beware. I believe the dart blocks use a standard 1 5/8" frost plug and a 2 7/32" cam plug, but i have seen them vary When installing them i usually put a small bead of JB weld on the plugs before i pund them in, its extra security to keep them in. Also i would consider installing a screen kit over the lifter valley drains over the cam, its keeps any parts in the event of a valve train failure from reaching the bottom end. Also what do you plan i running for rocker arms??? I would reccomend a T&D shaft mounted setup if you want a reliable setup. ALSO!!! when you put the rear main cap on the block, make sure you dont miss the O-ring that goes in the reciever groove between the block and the cap! When you install the cam bearing install them 1 at a time, then slide in the cam to make sure it still turns, we have run into issues with bearings having high spots and the cam either not turning or being tight, its much easier to diagnose this doing them 1 at a time. Chances are you wont have an issue, but its better to be safe than sorry.

327sleeper88

i guess crower lifters it is! Will they still last a long time with lots of street driving?


i had planned on using jesel SS shaft mount rocker arms. i have heard good rep with them.

NO plasigage for me!

I figure i will have about 10+ quarts total for oil. 7qt pan + 3qt accumulator + lots of -12an hoses and cooler.

1986Z28OWNER

iTrader: (1)

The crowers will last until the engine needs a freshen, with any solid roller lifter the biggest thing to watch is for spreading at the bottom.

327sleeper88

i am kinda new to this business of "real" motors. what would be the interval time to freshen up an engine like this assuming it is properly maintained?

I have been following a lot of forums with 5400bbc build. there are several that don't touch the bottom end for years, but still maintain the valvetrain at regular intervals. i am trying to build the bottom end so that i don't have to change bearings every season.

Here is what i mean but a good lasting bottom end.

327sleeper88

now that i have most of the short block all figured out, it is time to introduce the top end. Im thinking it will be a pretty crazy set up for the street, but im a crazy individual.

the cylinder heads are some brodix BB-2xtra's. they have 365cc intake ports as cast , 2.30/1.88 valves, .500" raised exhaust ports.





i bought them bare from brodix for only $1300. through summit, they are $2000 EACH with parts.

i will get them professionally ported and then set up to see at least 7500rpm.

327sleeper88

The intake is an edelbrock p/n 2927 - 4500 super victor. i will also port the intake manifold because the ports on the heads are significantly larger than the ones on the super vic.







I am going to use either a tapered 1" spacer and a 1" open spacer, depending on my cam decision and power band.

327sleeper88

to top it all off, i am using a quickfuel QFX 1150 dominator. after this purchase, i don't think i will ever buy any other brand of carburetors. i have messed with double pumpers and demons, but the quality of this is far superior.





i have never had any other dominator carb before, but this one has all the bells and whistles. there is no linkage under the carb like standard holley dominators.




It has dual clear fuel bowl level sights, 3 circuit billet metering blocks, fully adjustable secondary progression, 4 corner idle, 12 hole annular boosters, rear jet extensions, dual fuel inlet, and a lot more. i guess that is what is expected from an $1100 carb...


I only got the 3 circuit one now because i am interested in power at the track and i want to be on the safe side as far as my A/F ratio. i am running a pretty high CR for pump gas, so i want to break the engine in safely.

AlkyIROC

The BB-2xtra's will be fine although a little big for street use. My 540 has Dart 360's which have been extensively ported. There's sleeves through the intake port that go around the head bolts. That's how much it's been ported. I don't have any flow numbers but I'm guessing around 400 CFM.

The 2.300" intake valves are huge. I also have that in my heads. Spinning it to that high an rpm is hard on the heavy valves. First option to reduce the weight is to use titanium valves but at around $100 each, they were out of my budget. Since my heads needed new guides, my head builder installed 5/16" stem valves to help reduce the weight. The valves are not as light as 11/32" titaniums but are lighter than steel ones. I did notice that my old 310 Canfield heads with 2.250" valves was running out of air at around 7400. Now with the Dart 360 heads, the engine doesn't feel like it's nosing over when I shift. The engine could rev higher if the cam grind would let it.

Traditional heads have their limits. For better performance you need to get something like a Big Duke head but that also means a different intake manifold.

327sleeper88

i may want to spin it to 7500, but i will only be making peak power 7000ish, no higher. i want the power to "hang on" after 7000 only if that is what is needed at the track. i am not sure how fast i will really run in the 1/4, or what my trap rpm will be.

currently, this is more power than i have ever even thought about. even if i only run low 10's, that is still 4 seconds faster than any car i've been in.

i am trying to get a lot out of this without cutting corners, but am not a hardcore drag racer (yet...)

AlkyIROC

Depending on the cam grind and the final weight of the car, there's no reason this engine shouldn't produce a 9 second pass even with premium pump gas. Low 10's should be easy.

327sleeper88

i think my initial problem will be getting power to the ground. i currently have no mods to the chassis, but i do have a good idea as to what needs done.

before this build, the car had an iron head 327 in it with a solid cam, backed by a t-5. this engine build is getting me into the unknown. i have never been to the dragstrip either. luckily, im a thinking and wont don't anything stupid.

could i get into 10's by sand-bagging a little. basically i need to run a 10 sec 1/4 by 4/26/2011, or i lose a bet with my brother, dad, and grandpa... they all think that a 10 sec 1/4 is too fast for anything that i am capable of. ill show them!


time to add a little more of my combo... see what you think.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Does the bet say you have to be driving???

327sleeper88

HAHA.... well if i can manage to keep my license long enough after i have it running, im not sure who will drive it... Ill keep you in mind

327sleeper88

As for the ignition system, i figured id bit the bullet and get a good one. the distributor is an MSD pro billet for use with a crank trigger. it is a low profile, but large diameter cap. well see how it fits once i can mock up the motor in the car.





i haven't get the rest of the ignition parts yet, but i might see about getting a harmonic dampener with a trigger wheel built in.

the fuel system i am putting together will for sure be overkill, but with my last experience with a fuel system on my first engine swap, ill make this one good.

i have 4 17' lengths of -10an braided hose, a 1 micron fuel filter, and 2 mallory comp pumps. i figure my fuel system will be able to support 2000hp n/a if i ever go that high in the future...



The larger black pump is rated at 250GPH, i tested it and i was able to fill a 1 gallon jug in about 12-13 seconds

i might use them both, the smaller one for extended cruises, and the big one for when i want to show off, or maybe use the small one for the nitrous fuel pump.

My regulator is a mallory 5 port return style billet regulator.

327sleeper88

i am going to attempt to stuff all of this into my 88' rs. i got the car non-running with a 305tbi. i put in the 327, but that only lasted about 6 months. its not the best looking car, but there is no rust and it wasn't ever in a wreck. i figure it will be a sleeper for a while till i get some decent tires and new paint. my screen name should have been 555sleeper88

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

PM administrator JT. He can help you change your username if you wish.

(BTW, you don't have a the market cornered on ugly...)

Primetime91

iTrader: (15)

Not to drag this off topic...

But I'm curious if there really is proven benefit to painting the lifter valley?

Seems like it could potentially cause more harm than good to me, since paints don't like being in contact with oil, even if they're "resistant". But I have seen it done before, a Lingenfelter motor comes to mind

Seems to me like powdercoating might be a good compromise, if there really is a benefit to it

jstoltz

iTrader: (16)

looking good, Patriot big block heads are good too especially for the price and just a heads up instead of painting the lifter valley, just invest in a flap wheel and polish then you don't have to worry about anything flaking off to cause potential problems. looks like you will have way more fun than 90% of all TGO members

327sleeper88

lol


I sure hope this will be fun. while some people only budget a certain % of there money towards their third gen, i spend all my budget on my car (engine mostly ). keep in mind im a college student that pays for tuition also. i am building a lot of power, but my main goal other that max power is max reliability. i won't rev the crap out of it, but i will drive it like it was meant to be. as the thread goes on, i have a lot of other components that will help this motor live longer. Good tuning, good cooling system, a rev limiter, lots of gauges, etc. But above all, proper machine work and everything put together properly.

jstoltz

iTrader: (16)

also great choice on the quick fuel carb great company. great customer service if you need any help also. Myself I kind of prefer D.U.I. distributors over MSD though but MSD isn't bad.

92 CaMaRo Rs

I been reading this,Keep it up.Looks like its gonna be one hell of a ride.

327sleeper88

when i did some initial research, i never found any bad rep about quickfuel. i have yet to call them up, but based on the carb, im sure they know what they are doing. Before i run the engine, ill do one last clean up, and make a little thread about it.

i chose the msd stuff so that i can interchange between 6-series and 7-series ignitions. if i ever convert this to a track only motor, that the 7-series it what ill run. but as far as street driving goes, the 6-series is great. my dad was the first of us to run an MSD set up over a standard HEI dizzy. They make great stuff.

the reason i got MSD, is for all the electronic accessories- rev limiter, nitrous switches, and now they have the programmable box that i might get. i like the idea of being able to create my own ignition curve because of the high CR im running. well see how it works, this is my first experience with MSD though.

With the Crank trigger dizzy, the dizzy itself has nothing to do with adjusting the timing. you actually turn the crank by hand to the desired timing mark, then line up the pickup with the trigger wheel on the dampener.

I sure hope ill be able to make it to the next ThirdgenFest! i've been whating to go for two years now. plus my brother and brothers friend both have thirdgens.

jstoltz

iTrader: (16)

I doubt you will find anything bad about QFT the founders both worked for Holley for many years before branching off.

1986Z28OWNER

iTrader: (1)

Dont waste your time painting the lifter valley. I have seen mis-matched jets and shaving in float bowls in quickfuels, dont like em at all. Most people see the shiny and think they are good, We run 90% AED carbs on most of our builds. Very high quality with good quality control. Not one issue yet. The crank trigger is a very accurate way to time your ignition system, just be careful phasing your rotor etc... The BB-2's are a wicked head, but my reccomendation is if you want to port them, just clean up the chamber, bowl and port entry, when you start moving walls, floor and modifying the shoret side, you can do more damage then good in a heartbeat. Unless you have unlimited access to a flowbench that is. As far as a freshen goes, just keep an eye on your plugs, and i like to do regular leakdowns on my engines. Also watch your lash, with T&D's or Jesels, the lash should never change. We built a blown alky KB olds(BBC based) with T&D's. ran 5 passes in vegas, all in the 6.70 range. Lash never changed at all.

jstoltz

iTrader: (16)

I used quite a few QFT carbs and never had a problem guess maybe just like anything else there are some good ones and some bad ones.

327sleeper88

when i took the bowls of the QFX, it was all nice and clean. its polished inside and out, there is no dull cast aluminum showing anywhere.

Because the brodix heads are all standard port, the walls are very thin in many places. they did a good job (as cast) to fut those huge runners in a stock BBC location.

all i want to do to the heads is bowl work, and guide boss contouring. i really don't want to make the runners any bigger, just a little clean up, and contouring. like i said, im not trying to squeeze every last pony out, otherwise i would have bought a pair of the brodix Big Dukes.

I've done a lot of reading about solid rollers on the street, and the most important thing to watch for is valve lash. as long as your valve lash doesn't change, you lifters are in good shape. i would have to say i am pretty good about upkeep and checking lash.

327sleeper88

I got my block back from the machine shop for the 2nd time around. all that was left was to deck the block .020" and install the cam bearings.

I mocked up the whole assembly (except rings) to make sure everything is nice and smooth.







I didn't take any close-up pics, but i put some clear scotch tape on the piston skirts and ring land to hold the piston square in the bore during mock up.






For the mock up, i used the suggested torque for the rod bolts, 70 lb/ft, but i will get a rod bolt stretch gauge for final assembly.

There is plenty of rotating clearance everywhere in the block, its quite amazing that all these parts are off the shelf, and the dart block makes life easy.

327sleeper88

I measured rod side clearance and got .024"-.025", good or not? after getting the block decked, i have .005" deck clearance.





After everything was all assembled, i could turn the crank snout by hand pretty easily. seems like this is a good thing, but i have never build an engine from scratch before.

1986Z28OWNER

iTrader: (1)

0.024-25 is perfect for rod side clearance, ) Most motors i build i set the piston 0.005 in the hole to allow the block to be decked again if need be later on down the road at a freshen, when you zero deck it, you leave yourself no room to play, after that its custom compression height pistons, Make sure you torque those bolts to factory spec and record the free length and the torqued length to ensure proper stretch, your should see around 0.005-6" stretch, keep a record of this, and keep the bolts in the same hole they came out of, ex: #1 cyl - tang, and non tang side.

DAREDEVIL 1

DAMN, nice..looks to be a 750 + HP engine...and ~13 :1 compression !?

327sleeper88

i figure if my chamber volume is 121-123cc, depending on head gasket choice, ill be right at 12.3-12.5:1. i will use pump gas, but thats because im at 5000'. not to mention that my cam with be in the 270/280 @ .050".

my old huge cammed, iron headed 327 was at 11.7:1 and i ran pump gas with locked timing! no problems at all.

327sleeper88

got some more done on the engine!

i finally got around to getting the cam. Its a custom bullet cam. It has the 4/7 swap, pressed on "everwear" gear so i don't need to run a bronze dizzy gear. The specs are 273/283 @ .050" , .772"/.772" lift on a 112 lsa. i figured with the big heads and high compression that i need a cam this big to go well with the rest of the combo. With this combo i will be able to safely spin the motor to 7500 and still make power. i an hoping for at least 700hp at the wheel without NOS.

My heads are getting 1.645" dual springs, and titanium retainers. just a few more weeks until final engine assembly.

DAREDEVIL 1

OUCH, i think that cam is way to big ..lol

and if its a custom cam, they should of provided u with the matching gear to stick on your dizzy !!!

MassD

iTrader: (1)

That cam is HUGE omg