as the title says im going to try to make somewhere around.. hopefully a little over 500 hp.
ill start off telling you what i would like to use.
i have a stock bore 400 block. i have a crank too but i would like to possible destoke it and lighten another crank so that it would rev fast and not have as much stress on the bottom end. im on a sorta budjet so i cant go extremely expensive lol i also have a set of procomp aluminum heads i was thinking about throwing on it (after having them port and polished and reseated with 2.05 intakes) right not they are 2,02 with 195cc intake runners
i know im probably sounding like a retard here but id like some opinons on the best way for a snappy engine around that hp

thank you all in advance

 

What's the budget??.

 

i would like to keep it below 2500. im going to try to get deal on some parts from people i know. but if i cant its no big deal it will just take longer.

 

Throw a nitrous kit on it. That's the easiest and cheapest way to increase the HP and still keep it driveable. High HP with a small CID NA engine is possible but isn't all that cheap.

 

Fast. Cheeeep. Reliable.

Pick any 2.

2 only; can't have all 3.

That said, de-stroking it is a bad idea. Cost more, go slower. That's using your own money as the weapon to slow yourself down with. Beyond dumb, all the way to stooopid.

2.05" intakes are another waste. That's about $50 per HP. Ditch that. With those runners the valves aren't the restriction, so upgrading them will have basically no effect.

Go buy a rotating kit from somebody; Scat, Eagle, that type of vendor. The stock crank & rods won't survive. You can't piece together something that will for any less.

Make sure your heads are set up for ALOT of cam, and put a solid flat-tappet in it; something in the low-mid 240s of intake duration and around .550" lift, bigger exh lobe than int.

You already have the one big-ticket item you need, heads. You might get close to $2500 if you try hard; maybe within $1000 or so. Of course the closer you get to that, the less times it's likely to make ANY HP at all, let alone 500.

 

The reviews and us building engines have found Eagle/Scat to be off shore forged junk and Eagle machined off shore with Q.C. not near anything where is needs to be.Reliability at that power output for the long run in serious question.Howards on the other hand is a big bang for your buck that lasts.Considering what your getting and what your paying,it is one hell of a buy.

I know you said you have parts for this build already.Thing is the quickest route to 500 hp and might even be the cheapest is certainly a mod on a BBC.

With my contacts my 383 is going to range from $6,000 to $8,000.I could easily drop $4,000 on a induction alone once it all said and done with all the pcs.

Leave any thoughts of cast anything behind you at 500 HP.Yeah-yeah,guys will tell you about all their adventures with that stuff and I am telling you about a reality check having you put on your big boy pants.Think more about torque than HP for a street driven car.

 

i had heard it was ok to destroke. never done it thats why i was going to experiment. and i wouldnt just throw 2.05 valves in without porting it first. thats defeating the purpose.however the heads as they are now will support a .600 or .650 lift. cant remember which. and keeping it a 400 would make it a little more simple to make the 500. i can spend more then 2500 too thats just a ballpark figure for the parts i know i can get that are decently cheap depending on the combo i run. flattops zero decked with them heads should be somewhere around 11:1 comp ratio with a standard .039-.040 gasket.
quick question. i would rather run a forged crank but if i got the scat 9000 series would it handle it?

 

i would love to have a big block. however that is most def out of my price range. i like the power i can get out of a small block for the money. granted the torque is unmatched in a big block. now i know you were saying not to run cast parts. i would rather not run cast. but who would you suggest other then scat or eagle

 

Do a search for the Howards stuff.

 

Why would you even mess with aleast a 20 yr bad design steam hole old block when you can buy new aftermarket block for about $1,400 which is better in every aspect.

 

well for one i have it. for two just because they are 20yr dont mean its horrible. yes they had cooling issues. but its pretty easy to overcome that. i asked foe options from people because i was hoping for people to helpful. i didnt want to start any arguments or have people talking crap on stuff. just some help for a setup. i do appreciate everyone who is giving me ideas though. thank you

 

Bud,please don't misunderstand my posts.That is what I am trying to do here.We have been in a position where for drag only we where forced for a customer to build a OEM 400 and in that case we tried to stabilize the bores filling the block.It does help some,but not completely.

What I am suggesting is for you to look at the big picture.If you where to lose your total investment because of a failure of a block and I didn't say something about that,I would feel really bad.So in the vein of a total investment on a build,the aftermarket blocks really isn't that much and is rebuild-able if you ever needed to.

I am in no way selling you anything.Just want to help.

 

the only other option i have vs the 400 is another 350 block. im sorry for misunderstanding them at first. ive seen people build some high hp stock 400 blocks. that was circle track tho.
i figured it would be better with them higher displacement. i have a couple 350s. i have a buddy who has a .060 350 thats pushing 500 hp with a stock bottom end. i cant believe it held up but it has taken the abuse like a champ. i was trying to something a little different then him for a decent price cause everytime im about done building something he builds something bigger better and faster.

 

I absolutely understand you wanting something not like anyone.On that count we do think alike. The history of why guys stop using de-stroked 400's was we found yrs ago the stroked 350's for the same displacement where that much better blocks.So with you saying you don't have the funds for a BBC,I am saying you might want to consider a stroked 350 to 383.Yeah I know-it's just like the rest of the other guys,but with your combo it really isn't.

I posted a link I found for 108 SBC combo's in the section.Maybe if you looked at that,you might find something you like.

 

I'll take a look... Where's the link? Lol sorry

 

Here you go:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/engi...ne-combos.html

 

I have read some reviews lately from a few other engine builders and shops that deal with Eagle parts and they are saying the quality has improved in the last year or two. Seems like Eagle is doing a better job on its castings and forgings now. Have you seen anything like this recently? I've used the eagle forged crank and h beams in my 383 3 years ago to 6800 rpm no issues but only ran that motor for a year so its not like it seen alot of work.

YOu can do a 400 OEM block just fine as long as it sonic checks out and the machine shop goes over it to ensure its a sound block. If its a fresh bore, i would not overbore it much if you can get away with not boring it at all. .010-.020" over would help but you'd need to find some special pistons for that size.

Flat tops on a 64cc chamber head on a 400 is closer to 11.5 to 1. Ok with big cam and aluminum heads. Procomps arent the greatest out there but the castings can work ok. I wouldnt trust the cheap parts that are in them however. They could be opened up well to feed that 400 tho. New valves would help once the port is shaped to go with the new valve size. Probably open it to 210cc and be fine. Thats a good port size for a 400 turning less than 6500 rpm. But after investing in new valves, springs, machine work, etc it will likely cost as much as a new set of profilers 210cc already set up for you! Just a thought. Price it out. Call Chad Speier at Speier racing heads to do some econo porting on those heads and replace the components with good springs/etc. Could use those valves and make power but a big bore likes the larger valves with a port matched to it.

 

I built a 383 with a Scat rotating assembly and regularly revved it close to 7000 rpm and was running 12.20's @ 113 mph in a 71 Pontiac Lemans with drag radials and full exhaust. I can't say anything bad about Scat. 4years and still screaming..

 

I have a Huffaker 406 making 440+ HP I'd let go for $20,000 if that helps answer the 500 hp for $2500 question.

I myself have used Eagle and Scat for the last 10 years in many marine engines that live in the 4500-6500 RPM range and had zero problems, well zero problems with the actual product itself, operator error is a different story. If you use excellent machine work and measure everything properly you should have no trouble.

 

Many of the Eagle stuff for roundie round racers was breaking behind number two main journal.The taper measurement was so bad,the cranks new had to be cut 10/10 to make it right.Then the straw the broke the camels back was the pin to pin index was so far off,it couldn't be fixed.Now after many many yrs we never had a bad Howards and for only retail of the track smart cranks of around $700 it is well worth the investment.

 

So help us all understand here, "expert"...

d00d here has a $2500 budget; and you're going to send him down the road of a $700 crank?

Last I knew, Howard's doesn't forge cranks. Where and by whom are their blanks forged?

Let's get back into the real world here.

OP, forget the destroking; it's STOOOOPID. You PAY EXTRA - understand clearly, that means, you fork over more money - to TAKE AWAY POWER. MORE MONEY, LESS RESULTS. Is that the direction you want to go in? Is that the kind of "different" you want to be? "Yeah I'm 'different'; I make less power than you, but it cost me more!" Now that's a claim to fame, right there, eh?

Go get a "budget" forged assembly. If the 2 specific familiar brands I mentioned aren't to your liking, go get one from some other one of

instead. There are plenty, those aren't the only ones. You might for example check Lunati, Ohio Crank, or any number of other suppliers of BUDGET STREET rotating assemblies; any of whom can supply you with A WHOLE BOTTOM END for the price of the "expert"'s choice of NOTHING BUT A BARE CRANK.

For $2500, you're not going to build a competitive race motor that will survive for any significant length of time, especially not when that budget also has to cover installing it, a transmission, a rear end, suspension work, and whatever else it will take to be able to successfully USE that much power. As those of us who have been building motors for all these decades can tell you, it takes ALOT more than some HP - or a $700 crank - to make a car actually GO FAST. In fact some of us will tell you, an amount of cash EQUAL TO whatever you spend on the MOTOR, will be required to make EVERYTHING ELSE capable of the same power level. I'm not quite that extreme, but I'd say you should DEFINITELY plan on spending AT LEAST HALF as much on "everything else", as you do on the motor itself. Which pretty much rules out $700 cranks when all you've got in the bank is $2500.

Scale back your goal to something reasonable for your budget, and spend your money WISELY. Be REAL CAREFUL about getting all wrapped around the axle about "different", or romantic-sounding racing parts, or on the flip side, taking too much risk (stock crank and rods for example) that will explode the first time you crack the secondaries and leave you with NOTHING to show for your $2500 besides a smoking heap of shrapnel.

Don't forget, there's ALOT more to building a motor, than the parts list; and especially, more than just "the big" parts like .... a crank. Even for just a competent stock-level block prep, you'll have a good solid $500 in it, BEFORE any of the "tweeks" that set a racing or high-perf job apart from a "rebuild". In my opinion, you will not get 500 HP out of a 400 CID motor for $2500, except by sheer dumb luck; and if you do, it won't happen very many times before you'll need another $2500 motor. Bring your expectations more into line with your resources.

 

its a process where im starting with the engine and working my way back. i know its hard to get that power for that money. but ive seen it done. granted that was a baseline price for me. im trying to get in the ballpark. block prep i know isnt cheap. assembly and installation is done by me. machining i obviously dont have the resources for, but there are local shops that are decent on price and do quality work. 1gary did give me that link with the different combos. i really like combo 71. it seems well matched and the heads i have are pretty much the same spec wise. and i plan to run slightly more compression. i shouldnt have put 2500 down as a budget. i will spend more it will just take me a little longer to build it. im looking at some rotating assemblies on speedway right now but the rotating assembly i found is for a 434. its 1400 bucks. part number is 9151275. if i went that route id have to bore my block to .030 over. when i got the block i was told its stock bore. whats the size for stock bore? 4.125?

 

Yup, 4.125.

I've "seen it done" too... that lasted, that is... if the person doing already had spent all the money beforehand (had stuff laying around), or was willing to accumulate "good deals" over a period of years. I've also seen it done where the motor grenaded before it had an hour of run time or 10 miles on it. Which of those categories are you in? which do you want to be in?

Machine work pricing is basically somebody's skills plus the cost of some machinery, times how many hours it takes. No way around it. Granted, some shops charge more than others; but quality machine work equals good equipment (go price some of that to get some numbers) plus an experienced knowledgeable machinist, times enough time for them to be able to be meticulous and thorough and not leave details un-attended-to. The absolute worst place to try to shave coins on a motor build, is the machine work. You have a better chance of long-term survival AND high output with good machine work, than with a $$$ parts list and no attention to detail.

A 434 would be as much easier to make power with than a 400, as a 400 is easier than a 377 ("de-stroked" 400). Not cheeep though, and CERTAINLY not a "budget" machine shop situation. Stick with a 400, use better than stock parts but be careful not to waste money on stuff that won't do you any good, and PAY WHAT IT COSTS for somebody to take care of the details. Machine work will make or break your project, parts list won't, so much.

 

Crank- Scat 4340 forged $600
Item #:
91515552
Item Details:
3.75" stroke - 400 mains - 5.7" rods

Rods-Scat Forged H-Beam Rods, 5.7"$400
Item #:
91015234
Item Details:
630 Grams rod weight
63 ft/lbs rod bolt torque
Pistons-KB Claimer Chevy 400 Pistons - Flat Top $190
Item #:
4749911
Item Details:
C/R 58cc=12.6, 64cc=11.7, 76cc=10.3
Piston/Pin Weight: 624 g
Rod Length: 5.7"


well hes a quick list of what i think would be a more then strong enough bottom end. that is a good chunk of change... just for parts. i want to build this right so i might as well give up that budget and keep saving. now on the machine shop side what would you reccomend to get done?

 

500 hp is not that difficult in a 400. Wont need super special rotating assembly stuff, just well assembled stuff, as said above with the quality machine work.

Where in western PA are you?

 

Bore & hone w torque plate
Index cyls and perpendicular to crank CL
Deck block to zero clearance w rotating assy
Check mains, align bore or hone as required
Drill & tap starter bolt hole for 12.8" flywheel starter
Drill main oil passage (above the cam) straight through block from end to end
Check bell hsg dowel pins for alignment to crank CL, correct as required (offset dowel pins)
Check lifter bores for exact perpendicular to cam CL
Rifle brushes through EVERY oil passage with solvent
Use 2-bolt block, install splayed 4-bolt main caps (somewhat $$$$, save for last if you win the lottery)

I'm guessing you're sort of new at this, so...

Do you have any idea what a "claimer" is?

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In circle track racing, it's a rule whereby if anybody wants to buy your [whatever], there's a set price that you MUST sell it for. If you refuse to sell, you're DQed. Kind of .... discourages ,,, .... ummmmmmmm,,,, .... aggressive or enthusiastic .... $$$spending$$$ on the [whatever].

I used to LOVE building motors for a certain 2-bbl claimer class... the rule was you were required to run a Holley 4412 2-bbl, and you HAD TO sell it for $250. You could run ANY motor you wanted; just, had to run that 500 CFM 2-bbl carb, and you HAD TO sell the carb to anyone on demand for $250 ON THE SPOT, no hesitation reservation or equivocation allowed. Now... think about it... how would you build a motor for that? Can't run a whole lotta RPM, because the carb won't feed it; gotta get your power some other way. Purse wasn't real big either so there wasn't a whole lotta jack to lavish on it; no solid rollers for example, that would have taken a WHOLE YEAR of Fri night winnings. Believe me, it's an art.

OK, now that you've got the picture, imagine a MOTOR "claimer" class. Somebody used to badger me to build motors for that but I always refused. The claim was $500. (long time ago in case you haven't figured it out yet)

Now... THINK... what kind of a motor can you build for $500???

Wanna know who DOMINATED that class?

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It was the guys with the junkyards as sponsors. Pop a short block (or it gets claimed), just get another junk one. After all the boneyard has em by the hundreds. How do you BUILD a motor to compete with THAT? Yeah right.

OK now that you've got the picture... what do you suppose a "claimer" piston is? Is that REALLY something you want to put with the rest of the parts you have listed? or rather, are the rest of the parts you have listed, REALLY appropriate to a motor built with "claimer" pistons?



A couple of the other classes I would occasionally run into were the "lift rule" classes, where typically, your cam COULD NOT exceed .390"/.410" lift (929 cam), but they "conveniently" failed to limit the duration or anythign else, so you'd see solid cams with roller-like ramps and 260° of duration, but .... .390"/.410" of lift. And there was the "valve spring rule" class, where the only rule was, you HAD TO run a 1.25" valve spring... imagine what that limits your cam (and therefore ramp rates and RPM range) to. Another was thhe "tire rule" classes, mostly dirt bombers; the rule was, your right rear tire HAD TO BE a F70-14 (later, 225/70-14); any motor, any car, any tire on the other 3, just THAT ONE was regulated.

Anyway, those other parts don't belong in the same motor with "claimer" pistons.

 

oh i see. ive built a few motors but nothing like this one. mainly stock or SLIGHTLY built. the last motor i built thats in my camaro now was a quick build. pushes around 350 hp ( i was told it should be around 375-400 but i dont believe that) dont get me wrong it runs alot better then the local ricers except the ones with 20k in them. but its not enough. im getting deployed in september (origannaly supposed to be feb, hence the smaller motor in the car) so if it has to wait til i get back so be it, then i can afford the good stuff. but since ill be around next summer i want to have a firebreather. now that i understand what the claimer is ill look else where for pistons.
as for cam i was looking and wondering about this one... im looking for something a little different but ive heard extremely good things about lunati's voodoo series

60142LK summit part number
Basic Operating RPM Range 2,800-7,000
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift 249
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift 257
Duration at 050 inch Lift 249 int./257 exh.
Advertised Intake Duration 284
Advertised Exhaust Duration 292
Advertised Duration 284 int./292 exh.
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio 0.540 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio 0.560 in.
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio 0.540 int./0.560 exh.
Lobe Separation (degrees) 110

this is a learning experience for me thats why im asking so much. i am extemely mechanically inclined so i will pick up fast. its just the super hypo stuff that im not too great with

 

Learn what is important.
Cut and paste just annoys anyone that has to read through it all to get the essential facts
..........................................
Only info we need to know about a cam
Lunati 60142LK
Duration at 050 249 int./257 exh.
Valve Lift 0.540 int./0.560 exh.
Lobe Separation 110

 

I will ask you not to post to me in that fashion.Been at this many yrs.Just offering my advise.Back that advise with what I race and use.Next one out is a 383 with a Howards crank.The more exotic stuff is not what I am talking about.If all you have built is the lower end stuff,then I understand why you feel the way you do.My point is do it right the first time and no project needs to have a completion date.So if your coming up short for what you want and need,save up more money.

We lost a engine early part of the season.It is the first one in 20yrs.Most of our stuff has a excellent resale value with just freshening it up because of the parts in the first place and those parts build the way there are ,are in excellent condition.

I don't mean to be curt here.Just pull a all nighter on a hell al fide job in the shop.So I am tired.So right at this moment best I can do is say we have encouraged customers to spend alittle more for the sake of at some point they are going to want to sell it too and we want happy customers that realize our advise help them not lose their shorts.

Oh yeah..............Could I tell you stories about the Claimers sold at the Parts Peddlers Auction In Syr.Well another time maybe.

 

Not time to worry about a cam yet... that's one of the last things to be concerned about, after all the factors that influence it have been established.

Best thing to do at this point is to set a REALISTIC budget, and a REALISTIC goal; and avoid straying from either of those, in either direction (spending too much on something or cheeeeeping out, or buying parts that are either inadequate or overkill for the goal).

500 HP from a 400 doesn't require much exotic bottom-end stuff. Remember, HP = torque x RPM x 2 x pi / 33000 (you can abbreviate the part after the RPM by using / 5252.11); if you can make 450 ft-lbs of torque at your peak HP RPM, which is entirely reasonable for a 400, then all you gotta do is plug 450 ft-lbs and 500 HP into the equation and solve for RPM, and that's ALL you have to spin it to. For the #s I just gave you, that works out to 5835 RPM; which is NOT all that fast. YOu don't need to buy 7000 RPM parts for a motor that won't need to go past 6000. And there's a HUGE cost difference in getting a 400 from 6000 to 7000 RPM.

Spend your money WISELY. Sure, everybody wants to sit around and talk about "I want the best", and at the same time "I want to spend the least"; the idea is, balance those 2 concepts, so you get EVERY BIT OF what you need BUT NO MORE THAN THAT.

Likewise, all the parts and all the machine work need to MATCH. You want all of those things to be appropriate to your goal, which should make them all similar in terms of "ratings" or "intent". If you're rebuilding a phone company van for the phone company, you wouldn't put a Bryant or Callies crank in it or do those machining steps I spoke of; if you're building a race car to run a professional or even a serious sportsman series you wouldn't NOT do those things. It's a SYSTEM, not a list of disjointed parts in a mental vacuum.

There are therefore 2 ways to err: buying the cheeeeeeeepest of the cheeeeeeeeeeeep when you need something better than that, and buying super high-$$$$ romantic-sounding race car parts when something considerably less $$$$$ will do. The place people are most likely to make either of these mistakes is in the short block, precisely because it's at the beginning of the spending part of the project. Your bank account looks fat or whatever, you can't see all the little nickel-&-dime stuff that will inevitably pop up later, and you waste money on .... too much crank; or, your bank account looks thin, and you pinch the pennies too hard, and buy parts that won't hold up.

Remember, the bottom end doesn't determine how mcuh power you make. It only determines how much power it can survive, and for how long or how many times. Once you get past a reasonable survival rate, anything else is waste. On the other hand, if your bottom end is not adequate and fails to survive, EVERY PENNY you spent on it, turns into shrapnel. The idea is, find the sweet spot and avoid the extremes.

 

Aaaaaaa-Scr/DCR does build torque and hp and dictates from which all the rest is matched.

I read about the O/P's service.I wanted to say Sir Thank You for that.

 

Well put SOFA ....

 

ok so cam is pretty much the last thing i will have to worry about. i will go throught the bottom end and figure out exactly what i need nothing more (by much) nothing less. but my question is if i would want to go bigger or go for slightly more rpms wouldnt it be smart to have a bottom end that will handle more r's or power? then i would have it. i dont plan on changing anything but im looking a little bit ahead cause i tend to run things pretty hard when it comes to racing. im kinda throwing that budget out the door because in machine work and bottom end ill have that in it. now should i do anything with my heads? and i can get a brodix sp1 for next to nothing. would that fit the motor? or is it too big?

 

It can be done, just kept things simple. Consider keeping it under 6500 rpms. Also consider forged ibeam rods. Strong enough and save a few bucks. Focus on making as much tq as possible in your budget even if it means slightly less than 500hp. Your not going to get the best with that budget but at least you already have the block and heads to start. Displacement is already on your side.

 

Thing you need not to lose sight of as you go up in CC's for heads,your going to give up bottom end moving that up in RPM's.For smiles for miles in a street vehicle that would be not such a wise move.And yes I agree looking forward to build more in the bottom end.Good quality steel is the deal.Who knows how you would feel two yrs from now wanting to a big time spray it. A company that has taken really good care of me is Competition Products.Might want to take a peak at what they have and they have a section called the broom section where they are selling off over stocks,sale items etc.

 

195cc procomps with the smaller valve is a small head for a decent 400 motor but should beable to get near 500hp with the right cam. There will be plenty of torque with that setup.

 

I was thinking flattop pistons to give me around11.5-11.7:1 comp ratio. Would that affect what cam I should run? And with that comb would the heads be ok?

 

Here is a tip from Engine Builder Mag.com that states the topic of finishes in over bores better than I could and in the second paragraph speaks to issues with OEM 400's bores.I do think this is important info for you to know because sometimes while dealing with a machine shop it is more the type of questions your asking to know what you paying for.

Cylinder Bore Finishes
The surface finish in the cylinder bores is just as important for proper ring sealing as the surface finish is on the block and heads for proper head gasket sealing.

Regardless of what type of rings or cylinder liners are used in a block, rings usually seat best and last the longest when the cylinder bores are given a plateau finish. A plateau finish essentially duplicates a “broken-in” bore finish, so there is less scrubbing and wear on the rings when the engine is assembled. What’s more, if the surface is finished correctly it will provide plenty of flat, smooth bearing surface to support the rings while also retaining oil in the crosshatch valleys to lubricate the rings.

The OEM 400's.

The only exception to this is in motors where there is a lot of bore distortion. If the bores go out of round when the head bolts are torqued down, the rings may not seat as well allowing increased blowby and oil consumption. Thinner rings that can conform to the bore will work better in these kind of applications, but it’s also a good idea to use torque plates when honing when honing the bores to simulate the distortion that occurs when the cylinder heads are installed. The other option is to go with a slightly rougher “peaked” finish to seat the rings.

Most ring manufacturers recommend using a two- or three-step honing procedure to achieve a plateau finish. First, rough hone to within .003˝ of final bore size to leave enough undisturbed metal for finish honing. For plain cast iron or chrome rings in a stock, street performance or dirt track motor, hone with #220 grit silicon carbide stones (or #280 to #400 diamond stones) to within .0005˝ of final size. Then finish the bores with a few strokes using an abrasive nylon bristle plateau honing tool, cork stones or a flexible abrasive brush.

For moly faced rings in a street performance, drag or circle track motor, hone with a conventional #280 grit silicon carbide vitrified abrasive, then finish by briefly honing to final size with a #400 grit vitrified stone or #600 grit diamond stone (or higher), plateau honing tool, cork stones or a brush.

For stock and street performance engines with moly rings, an average surface finish of 15 to 20 Ra is typically recommended. for higher classes of racing, you can go a little smoother provided you don’t glaze the cylinders.

For moly or nitrided rings in a performance motor, hone with #320 or #400 vitrified stones, and finish with #600 stones, cork stones, a plateau honing tool or brush.

If the cylinders are rough honed with diamond, they can be finish honed with a finer grit diamond, a fine grit vitrified abrasive or a plateau honing tool or brush. Because diamond is a harder material and wears more slowly than conventional abrasives, it cuts differently and may require more honing pressure. But many newer diamond stones now use a more friable bond that stays sharp and doesn’t load up, allowing the stones to cut smoother and leave a rounder, smoother bore finish.

When using diamond honing stones instead of vitrified abrasives, you generally have to use a higher number grit to achieve the same Ra (roughness average) surface finish. For example, if you have been using #220 grit conventional stones to finish cylinders for plain cast iron or chrome rings, the equivalent diamond stones might be a #280 to #325 grit. If you have been using #280 grit conventional stones to hone for moly rings, the diamond equivalent might be #400 to #550 grit stones. The actual numbers will vary somewhat depending on the brand and grade of the stones.
Bristle style soft hones (plateau honing tools) have mono-filament strands that are extrude molded with a fine abrasive material embedded in the strands. The filaments are mounted in different types of holders for use with portable or automatic honing equipment. Another type of brush uses molded abrasive ***** that are mounted on flexible metal shafts so the ***** can easily conform to the surface. Brushing helps sweep away torn and folded metal on the surface while removing many of the sharp peaks to make the surface smoother.

As with any type of machine shop equipment, proper technique is required to do the job right with these tools, so be sure to get the necessary instruction from your supplier.

With the right plateau honing techniques, you should be able to get the surface down to an average roughness of 8 to 12 Ra or less, with RPK (relative peak height) numbers in the 5 to 15 range, and RVK (relative valley depth) numbers in the 15 to 30 range. These numbers are meaningless unless you have a surface profilometer that can measure them (which a growing number of shops now have).

When finishing a performance block with nickel silicon-carbide liners, the microscopic pores in the coasting do an excellent job of retaining oil for the rings. Consequently, the bore can be finished to a super smooth finish of 4 to 6 Ra or less to reduce friction even more. Such low numbers would be too smooth for grey cast iron and would likely starve the rings for proper lubrication.

Dennis Westhoff of Sunnen cautions that honing coated cylinders is not the same as honing conventional cast iron cylinders. “Engine manufacturers and racers are developing new thermal spray coatings for cylinder walls that contain a mix of ceramics and other materials,” said Westhoff. “We are working with these people to develop a database of honing procedures that can achieve the best surface finish. The porosity in many of these coatings retains oil quite well, so it is usually possible to go with a much smoother plateau finish in the bores.” Westhoff’s advice for engine builders who may be working with coated cylinders is to find out what type of coating is being used, then call the machine supplier to find out what combination of honing stones and honing procedures will produce the best finish.

 

Agreed and supporting link to CC intake runners:

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti...t_volumes.aspx

And

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti..._velocity.aspx

 

Wow that's a. Lot of info lol thank you. I'm gonna leave the heads alone I think for now. Maybe some day i ll get a little bigger set from say dart. But that's when I decide I'm going to race it.I really appriciate you all helping me. But its not over yet! Lol but I don't know what I should be looking into next.

 

Check your PM

 

There has been a bunch of good information shared here. However, no one has asked, what I believe, is the most important question: What are you going to do with this beast?

How you answer that question should make a big difference in answering how to get to 500 HP.

Another important question: Where do you want that 500 HP to be demonstrated? There is a huge difference between 500 gross flywheel HP and 500 rear wheel HP.

To perhaps rehash a few points:

$2500 is barely adequate to build a decent shortblock, let alone one you want to abuse. It can be done, but, as was alluded to, skimping on the hold-together parts will cost you a lot more money than you saved when the thing lets go.

"I already have it" is one of the worst reasons to use something in your build. More often than not, you'd be better off selling what you have and buying what you need.

In your profile information, you say, "wish gas would go down so i could drive v8's all the time". I don't know if you plan to drive this 500 HP 400 all the time, but you probably aren't going to get your wish. In the spirit of "selling what you have and buying what you need", consider selling off all the stuff you have and doing an LS1 swap. Sooooo many ways to make a 500 HP daily driver with that platform it's not even funny. My all-factory internal pieces LS1 runs 12.0's at 110+ (3450 pounds going down the track with DOT slicks), and I drive it to work regularly (the other vehicle I drive is a '95 Silverado 6.5 TD, but the Camaro is cheaper to operate). Although I'm still about a hundred short of 500 GFWHP.

 

LS1 is agreat motor. My 99 is my daily driver only car at this point in time, and it knocks down 12.3's at 109.8 mph on 2.73 gears, and gets 25mpg highway. Was doing 80mph around 2K rpm cruising. Nice! ~330whp 400 crank.

you can cam it to near 500hp or do ported heads with cam to get 500hp easier, and still get over 20mpg.

But if you open your budget more, theres no reason you cant get 500hp on a 400 EFI motor and not beable to get decent mileage. My friends solid roller 406 ran mid 10's ALL motor...500whp and got darn near 20mpg highway in a T56 6 speed. Thats a racey 600hp motor that runs the streets

The key is GOOOD heads and cam to match with an intake that wont restrict the 2.