hartsmike

Was watching a TV show and just happened to think about a comparison of engine types to put in a third gen. What would be the least expensive, least troublesome yet more sensible and easiest up keep with best power and of course, justifiable milage.... A built 350 (guess a ZZ4 type) with a Supercharger or a LS motor both/either mated with the T56?

SKELITOR117

iTrader: (3)

A ZZ4 Gen I 350 is very simple to work on. Gen I Chevy small block V8s are considered one of the easiest motors to work on in the world. Throwing on a supercharger complicates things, but not by much (depending on the supecharger). A ZZ4 makes 350hp and 400lbs tq. An LS from like a 2002 SS Camaro makes 345hp and around 330lbs tourque. Add a supercharger to the ZZ4 350 and well, your seeing 450-500hp and 600+tourque. Tell me which is better.

ol' paddy

i was trying to decide which would be better for me aswell.

for me my main options are either stroke my lt1 and throw a centrifugal on it or get a ls motor probably an lq4 or lq9.

what was said above is true, but, you can find an ls 1 easily for the $4000 dollars that the crate zz4 would cost you. so throwing a supercharger on both of them would have similar results in power and in cost.(i believe) plus the fact that the ls 1 is all aluminum shaving quite a bit of weight of our nose heavy thirdgens.
and if you live in a state with smog laws, good luck passing legitimately with a crate. Plus an ls gets much better gas milage.

overall both have their positives an negatives. just my 2 cents.

SKELITOR117

iTrader: (3)

You can get a remanufactured ZZ4 type Gen I 350 Chevy Small block for $3,000 @ www.cmengines.com. Its a complete motor too. Individually Dino tested. 350hp 400lbs tq. 12,000mi 12month warrenty as well. All for 3grand.

hartsmike

Reading some of the forums I was thinking the swap to an LS1 was gonna be in the range of $10,000 when all was said and done. Also, I thought the mpg was 22 to 28 range.. Also thought the LS was going to have more hp and torque.

ol' paddy

here is an ls that i found on craigslist in my area, took all of 1 minute find it.
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/pts/2763058266.html

i would also recommend getting an aftermarket k member with ls motor mounts, a t56 and i believe a new drive shaft is required, and then the mating of two computers which can be a bitch. if you're smart about it(and patient) i'm sure you can do the swap for somewhere around $5-6000.

SKELITOR117

iTrader: (3)

Older motors have more toque. An LT1 383 Stroker will put out 425hp but 500lbs tq. An LS7 427 Small Block from a 2006 ZO6 Corvette will unleash 505hp but "only" 475lbs tq.

travis401

iTrader: (1)

since everyone is throwing out tq and hp numbers, i thought id just add this lil factoid...

torque is an actual measurement of rotational force
horse power is figured out by using an equation which includes torque and RPM.

that being said, it all boils down to what youre comfortable working on, and your budget. LS motors have more complicated fuel injection systems, but a lot of the work tuning it is done with a computer. depending on what fuel delivery you go with with a gen 1 sbc. it can be just as complicated. as far as price wise, not including the blower setup, a gen1 is going to be cheaper to build than an equal LS. you can get decent HP and fuel milage out of a gen 1 without a blower. you can also get an LS into some good numbers with bolt ons and tuning.

kmcn47

checking that out right now

quick, go post this in this thread: (https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/theo...import-25.html)

ol' paddy

my stock 94 f-body lt1 is rated at 275...
stroking increases the cubic inches, so the horsepower gain should be proportional to the increased volume available for combustion.

there is no way that just stroking an lt1 will have it put out 425 horses. if that were so it would be the best $1000 i'd ever spend.

UnstableAviator

I've got my LS1 up and running, and stock with bolt on mods is enough to make it a blast to drive. Compared to my old engines, including a 383 that ran 7.42@92 in the 1/8th, this LS1 "feels" strong and is way more fun to drive. The EFI gives unreal throttle response that none of my 3 carb'd motors ever had, even after all that tuning. If you can, go LS. I know I'm biased, but man these engines are fun.

SKELITOR117

iTrader: (3)

I didn't say all 383s had that much power. I'm just saying I see allot of those crate engines with that specific power rating. I've seen 385hp 383s and 600hp 383s. I'm just comparing an older style engine with a similarly powerfull new engine.

SKELITOR117

iTrader: (3)

Oh my gosh I was just thinking the same thing. For a second there I thought I WAS on that thread.

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

So we're comparing a hopped up crate with a blower vs a stock 50 state emissions compliant used engine? Seriously?

Ill race you. First to swap intakes and torque the rockers wins. You take a SBC, Ill do my LSx

Costs for the swap vary depending how deep you want to get. If you just want to throw the engine in there, its significantly less. If you're like most and want to mod it and fix most everything with the car at the same time, its alot more. My first 5.3 swap cost just under $2k start to finish

Hardly

Most sensible thing in the whole thread

To sum it up, go LSx if you have the funds. As time goes on, the aftermarket will grow, swap parts will become more affordable and the swap will become more and more common

The SBC hit the market in 1955 and look how big its aftermarket it. The LS1 was released in 1997 and look how far it's come

whatever84

I would love to have an LSX but there is really nowhere to get it tuned close, KC or Chicago are the closest that I know of. No thanks I'll stick with my Gen1 that I can tune until that changes.

Mark.

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

My tuner is on the opposite side of the state. How often are you going to be tweaking things?

whatever84

^^I have several friends with LSX's and they are great, but they do change things pretty often and then need to get them tuned. Like I said I would like to have one also but I am always changing things on my car and I would have to start all over again with the parts that I already have. Gen1 small blocks still have a good following but to each his own.

Mark.

SKELITOR117

iTrader: (3)

I'll put it this way, a bone stock L98 TPI 350 from a 92 Z28 puts out 345lbs tq. Thats more than A 5.3 or a 5.7 LT1 from a 2000 SS Camaro (around 330lbs tq). And its the HP to TQ I was talking about. Not that you could take any old engine with any modifications or stock and it'll always put out more touque then any new engine. That wouldn't make any sence. But mod an older motor, like a TPI 350 from a 92 Z28, to the same horsepower as a newer moter, like and LS3 from a 06 Corvette, and the older moter will put out more torque. And when I say older motor, I'm talking about '92 or older.

hartsmike

My thinking to the proposed question was because it seems to me that guys that have put the LS's and T56's into their third gens have spent upwards of 10 grand-which is far more than say a ZZ4 or similar built 350. Was also thinking that the LS were far more efficient than the older built L98 or older 350's... If that's not the case then why are people spending twice the amount to put an LS model motor into third gens? Is a cammed up 350 getting half the mpg that an LS is behind the T56 with the gearing ratio remaining constant?

SKELITOR117

iTrader: (3)

LSx motors are more efficiant.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

No such thing as a torque motor, that is just something we designate a big cubic inch displacement engine that simply cannot breath, as we would focus on the power that it does make down low, thus being known as "torque motors". Once we open up the flow on these "torque motors" though, you will see this power suddenly move upward in the RPM band...

Bingo, horsepower is calculated torque...

travis401

iTrader: (1)

comparing a stock LSx to a bone stock 350 with a slightly bigger cam is comparing apples to oranges. a stock LSx will have decent HP with great street maners and good fuel economy. the LSx's like to make a ton of power with simple bolt ons and some computer tuning and still keep the great street manners and fuel economy.

88 350 tpi formula

iTrader: (9)

no kidding then a zz4 peak power to the broad curve the ls engines produce. night and day difference

hartsmike

So, you guys think the 10 grand or so of putting an LS into a third gen is worth it compared to an older ZZ4 type?

travis401

iTrader: (1)

where are you getting this 10 grand number from?
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/ltx-...ice-lists.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/ltx-...wap-costs.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/ltx-...-t56-swap.html

depnding on how cheap you can get your lsx and trans dropout for, your looking about 5gs for everything if you start with an LS1 drop out and leave it stock. of course that take into account being to do some of the work yourself. i could see hitting 10 gs if you farm out all the work or buy all new aftermarket upgrade parts.

91 Droptop

Ten grand is a huge #, I looked at a motor and 6 speed out of a 2002 SS and the whole package was $3K, the motor only had 60k on it. I was going that way until I remembered I had a 4 bolt main 350 block in my storage room along with an older Paxton SC, so now I am going the 355 route. I am into my motor for around $1500 and that is with aluminum heads and a HSR unit. I hope to make around 500-550 HP, but only way to tell is to get it dyno tuned. You need to remember that you can blow your entire budget on HP, but if the car won't stop or handle the power you are in trouble, this is why I put a number on my car and divided up the funds to make it a total street package, Power-Handleing-Stopping.

travis401

iTrader: (1)

most people do exactly that. come up with a budget and spend it all on the motor and not on the supporting factors to handle the HP increase like suspension and brakes and whatnot.

if you come up with a budget on your motor, expect to spend atleast that amount to make the car handle the motor.

91 Droptop

This was an intersting article about boost

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...t/viewall.html

88 350 tpi formula

iTrader: (9)

not sure where the ridiculous swap costs floating around came from but its not anything close to that! im not talking about cutting corners just clean planned installs even using sponsor parts -> (spohn mounts, hawks headers... not needed) you wont even be close to this 10k figure or even half way there unless you spend gobs of cash on the trans and engine..
lol well I do see many 30-60k ls1 drop outs floating around for some odd reason despite the age car these are coming from

robotic_junky

Honestly, I would vote for LS base engine for gas mileage and for reliability. I think the amount of money for both could be about the same (depending on deals you find).

Also how much do you think a supercharger is going to cost on top of building a 350 or buying 350 crate motor.....

travis401

iTrader: (1)

bolt in kits for 3rd gens run about $1500 for a centrifugal with inter cooler

hartsmike

I can drive the wheels off anything!!! Bout the only mechanicaly inclined thing I can do is the simple stuff such as changing the oil, plugs, wires etc... So, yeah, just about everything would have to be farmed out.. Like, here's my keys, call me when it's done....

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

I can sell you a VERY strong supercharged LSx turn key installed

travis401

iTrader: (1)

pocket is the LSx master. if you can afford the motor from him, id take it in a heartbeat(given that it was a serious offer).

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Apples & oranges. Crate engine HP & torque are given as gross flywheel; as-installed (such as you quote for the LS1) is net flywheel. Gross flywheel means no accessories are powered by the engine on the dyno (water pump, alternator), open headers (perhaps with torque tubes), and a velocity stack on the carb instead of an air cleaner. As-installed numbers are obtained with the engine powering the accessories, exhaust manifolds instead of headers, full vehicle exhaust system, full vehicle air cleaner system, and stock tune. Hardly a level playing field. Otherwise stock LS1's with headers, free-flowing air inlet system, headers and free-flowing exhaust, and custom tune are putting out 400+ HP numbers (still not gross measurements). Add an aftermarket cam, and the #'s skyrocket.

Oh, FWIW, you're also a bit off on the advertised ZZ4 #'s - 355 HP @ 5250 RPMs and 405 ft-lbs torque at 3500 RPMs.

Driveshaft not required unless you have sticky tires and do high-RPM clutch-dumps. Then you'll want a stronger one.

What "two computers"? The 3rd gen ECM will be completely replaced by the LS PCM.

Not sure what you're talking about. No 5.3 was ever put in a Camaro by the factory. A 2000 SS Camaro will have an LS1, not an LT1.

Obviously, people are inclined to tout what they themselves have chosen. Kind of a personal validation thing if you get others to do what you did.

The ZZ4 is a fine crate engine, and can be fairly easily dropped into a 3rd gen. I wouldn't supercharge one, though, because it has hypereutectic pistons. The heads really aren't all that great - with Fast Burn heads on a ZZ4 shortblock, power jumps to 385 HP @ 5600 RPMs (torque drops down to 385 ft-lbs at 4000 RPMs - might be due to the intake manifold they used, though).

I had a racing bud who had a '90 RS into which he put in a ZZ4 crate engine, ZZ9 cam, Big Mouth intake (converted to TPI, obviously), headers, free-flowing exhaust, had the plenum/runners/heads extrude-honed together, tuned, higher stall (2500, if memory serves), 4.10 gears. He was a full second slower than my all-factory-interal-parts stock tune LS1/4L60E Camaro. Although he was emissions-legal, he couldn't hold a candle to my car for driveability or economy.

Since you'll be farming this work out, you might as well buy the ZZ4, have your LG4 induction/ignition system installed, all new exhaust (shorty headers, 3" exhaust on back), a dual snorkel air cleaner (you might even be able to install that yourself), higher stall converter, and be done with it. Before the LS1, that's basically what I had in the Camaro. While it also was about a second slower than the LS1 (lower stall & gears handicapping it, admittedly), it produced about the same fuel economy as the LS1/4L60E does now. Since you'll be paying someone to do all this, figure on about $7-8k parts & labor. Adding a supercharger would be stupid more expensive (and ill-advised, per above).

SKELITOR117

iTrader: (3)

hay man, it's not my comparison, it's the OP's. Take it up with him.

torque_is_good

the OP cannot do any of the labor

the shop who does the work will need to warranty their work and prefer to use parts they source themselves

Do you think an owner who knows nothing more than to go to the local Jiffy Lube will be happy to hear from the shop in a week or 2 when he blows the motor, and that it's not warrantied? Nope. So, any reputable shop would either pass on the job or instruct the owner to have the engine built to handle boost.

Now we're talking removal of the engine, sending it to a machine shop, using upgraded parts, re-installation of aforementioned engine, installation of supercharger, tuning and matching of parts, upgraded exhaust system and all of that labor. I see that job easily in the $7,000- $8,000 range and only the engine has been done.

Frankly, it's a dis-service to quote low ball numbers to a poster who does not have the ability or experience to undertake the job and needs a shop to do it.

No reputable shop will cobble together used and junkyard parts. They must warranty their work and they don't want the headaches.

A shop which will do special favors of deviating from good business practice will only do so with customers they know well and who they know fully understand what is going on.

it is not worth a couple $thousand in labor to have someone who has no frikkin clue go around and file complaints and make all sorts of noise.

No repair job is worth losing other business or having a bogus complaint investigated.

Many of us tend to forget that shops are a business while our cars are our passion.

honestly, the OP would be best served to save his pennies and buy a different ride with the power he wants when he can afford it. There are lots of cars out there with $5,000- $10,000 worth of work and are worth only half of that. Why not buy one of those instead of becoming the one who spends 2x what it's worth???

torque_is_good

well said

there's no substitute for experience

88 350 tpi formula

iTrader: (9)

you just wasted everyone's time writing this

we are talking flate out swaps the shop installs came after the fact so no idea why you felt the need to jump on me but facts are facts way too many people thinking the swap costs so much.

your ignorance bleeds through your post regardless of the length

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

at this thread

What kit is 1500 bucks? I havent priced blowers but i know procharger is 4500-6000 depending what you get.

I say go turbo if you can fab. End up making more power and cheaper than buying a blower kit if they are in fact over 4000.

Its been 15 years and parts are still somewhat expensive IMO. 1200 for a FAST 92/92?? Pass...

Cheap pacesetter ls1 headers I have are 400 bucks or so still. Cheap thirdgen sbc longtubes can be had for under 200. All depends on what you get. Swap LSx headers in a thirdgen are 800+.

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

Look at the ported head selection. In the beginning, you had a few aftermarkets like patriot and AFR. Now you have all manner of CNC ported stock and aftermarket heads not much more than off-the-shelf GM castings

4th gen parts are absurdly cheap and common, heck look at the <$200 stainless long tubes (biggest market). Shoot, it used to be you had two choices for swap exhaust: manifolds or the SSW's. Now there are multiple versions of the SSW's, BRP long tubes, BRP mids all in a host of sizes and a few other companies rooting around for a niche market. Every subsequent header is cheaper than the predecessor. Bargain? Heck yeah!

Check out the aftermarket intakes. FAST is a poor example, try BBK, Professional Products/Typhoon, Edelbrock, Holley, GMPP etc. It used to be stock LS1/6, BBK or FAST

Stock harnesses are dropping in value. Conversion services are popping up left and right, tons of new wiring companies jumping in head first all competing for customers

My point is the aftermarket is EXPLODING. Doing the swap today is 10x easier than even 5 years ago. As time goes on, prices will continue to drop. Maybe not to pocket change SBC prices, but surely not $1200 headers, $2400 heads like they were

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

True I see your point there, but then again not all the aftermarket head porting programs are actually "good" port designs. Some are not that great while some really know what they are doing. Most are good enough to get the job done and thats ok for most street builds but serious combinations need to be thought out more. But thats besides the point.

Are those stainless steel headers REALLY stainless steel and quality? After making my own headers, I find it hard to believe you can make a pair of long tubes for LESS than 200 in materials alone in stainless steel. Even in mild steel that would be doing VERY well. I got roughly 8 J bends in a set of shorty headers for my turbo build and thats a very basic header. Flanges generally are around 20-50 bucks depending. Collectors even cheap ones are 30-50 bucks. Quality collector design would be MUCH more. Right there on the cheap is 150+ in just materials, not counting the time to weld. Stainless is double the price of mild steel.

Now assuming they just buy 8 straight pipes and do their own mandrel bending so no piece by piece fabrication, it still doesnt get any cheaper. At that rate, SS 304 in 16ga is still 12-15 bucks a foot. Figure 24" primaries, 1.75" diameter. 8 pipes at 2 ft each thats 16ft at 15 bucks a foot. 240 bucks...see what I mean?

If they are working thats great, glad to see it but I have my doubts on quality and actual stainless material.

torque_is_good

I believe my post to be a generic post which is informational. Ignorance???? If you say so it must be

this isn't a comparing dick size posts. The OP clearly states he has no capability and needs a shop. Please feel free to refute anything I posted especially the part about warranty and the time, effort and costs of dealing with frivolous complaints.

At the end of the day what tends not to be considrered by some here who need a shop to do work, is that they are a business.

I would especially be interested in your assessment if from a value for dollars spent, if my advice that the OP look for a vehicle which is already modified is in any way bad advice; again, pay note to the value for dollars spent and not the "hey it's cool to do these things" perspective. (OP must pay for all work)

Andrew James

iTrader: (3)

Care to explain how you have jumped to that conclusion?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Let's try to keep to the OP's premise and questions.

Hawk's used to do LS1 swaps for about $10k (used engine & tranny). I don't know what they would have to charge now, but used LS engines have a lot more miles on them than they used to 5 years ago. A new crate LS would probably add a good 50% to that number.

I doubt you could get a competent shop to do a SC or TC Gen I swap for less than $15k. I would check the credentials very carefully of any shop that offered to do an LS swap.

Our cars are getting to be so old now (all >20 years as of the 2012 model year) that you either: a) are going to do the work yourself, or b) you have a money tree in the back yard. If b), then you're probably getting a Vette or 5th gen.

If neither a) nor b) - Well, I'd better not complete that thought.

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

Ive been considering selling my boosted 383 LT1 setup in my sig for a LSx swap myself.
LSx / T56 with mild heads and cam . Something to make it a more fun Daily Driver vert.

Only problem is as with anything you spend $ on. I wont get near what the 383 is worth back out of it to offset the lsx swap parts cost. Looking back I should have Just did a LSx swap from the getgo.

v10viper04

I'll race you. But only if were changing lifters too... haha I had to. It's only fair!

kmcn47

hey i'm neither a nor b, but i hope for the someday ls1 swap for my 84, i already have a 4l60 so no t56 needed for me