Heres my 2-cents. The olds 302s were great motors, and its great to do something different. Im in the same boat as you, a younger guy who spends every waking hour either researching muscle cars/motors/drivetrain and just trying to expand my knowledge as much as possible, or just getting out and wrenching on them. Here's my oppinion on th 302 build.

302s were built because the Trans Am series had an engine displacement limit of 5.0. If they didnt you know Chevy would have run a 350 (which they did in the 70' Z/28). If you were building a road racing car this would be an amazing idea, as long as it was a manual transmission car and you could keep the revs high, why not? People make a lot of power from motors smaller than 302s so who cares. However for drag racing the 302 is not a good choice. Even back in the day people thought 302s were dogs because lets face it, on the street 20% of the time youre in the low power band, 75% youre in the mid-power band and 5% youre in the high band. Since 302s make their power in the high band most people thought 302s were dogs, especially on a launch (which is exactly what you need in drag racing, a good launch). People love the 350s because theyre so cheap and easy, i think theyre boring cause everyone has one but i like mine and my budget is low so i deal with it. 350s make loads of power in the mid-range, which is amazing for street driven cars. 305s were not used in Trans Am racing because they have a smaller bore and longer stroke, the idea behind a 305 is to keep torque near a 350 (by keeping the same stroke) but save mileage and emissions with a smaller bore. During road racing 95% of driving is done in the high-revvs so a larger bore/shorter stroke is just the better choice. Also notice the 302s had amazing dyno numbers back in the day (some people argue theyre not accurate, well the difference between gross and NET is offset by GM's notorious under-rating in my oppinion, so honestly real-world dyno numbers come out very close to advertised) HOWEVER, you have to watch the average dyno number rather than the highest output number. The highest number was around 400-425 at whatever RPM, but i bet that RPM was rediculously high do to the massive compression and large bore/short stroke combo. I bet the average output is more closer to 300, maybe a little less or more. Short stroke/long bore motors tend to have a spiked dyno graph rather than a flat one, which isnt good for street driving.

If i were you id go for it. It sounds like an awesome idea and an awesome project and something nobody has really done. Id be VERY interested in seeing how a Vortec headed 302 did on a modern build, maybe an aftermarket TPI on top, itd be an awesome mix of 1st and 3rd gen. However, my advice, as awesome as it sounds, DO NOT do it if you want to drag race. If you want to road race or circuit race then hell yeah, go for it, but it will be a dog for drag racing and at that point i agree a 350 or 383 would be better.

Also you should look into E85. It will keep you at the old school 13:1 compression without the whole $9 a gallon side-effect. Its not nearly as bad as everyone on the internet will lead you to believe, most of it is just blind ignorance and "he said she said" crap where nobody actually did the homework. I DID do the homework and will tell you its almost harmless and an amazing performance fuel. Cheaper than regular (let alone premium) and will run perfect with your 13:1 302. And with the TPI set up itd work awesome for your build and would be easy to convert back if you decided you didnt like it

you can PM me if you'd like to talk about it more. I think its an awesome idea. Itd have to have a T56 behind it so you could give it the street manners it would need but who wouldnt want a 6-speed behind a motor like that? Good luck!

 

Yeah I am looking for top end speed if I build this motor and I figure the 302 would be a great motor to build. If I wanted serious low power grunt I would go big block.

 

Just build it, screw what anyone else might say. Do what you want to do with it. Every choice made in life will have good and bad reactions, some people will think its awesome and some people just always want to talk down everything that wasnt their own idea or isnt part of the "norm". Personally im VERY interested in a more modern 3rd gen style 302. If they could make it that mean back in 67' imagine what can be done these days with the same build and compression plus vortec heads and updated TPI system/intake. Id recommend using a FIRST intake/TPI setup. And again, cant stress enough, it definitly will need a T56 behind it so you dont have an auto transmission set to keep you in the mid-range shifting way before you make peak power. With a 6-speed you have full control over keeping the motor in its optimum driving RPM and theyre not fragile like the T5s

 

I have never messed with a TPI before you think that would be better than a carb set up though? As far trannys gos I was think a turbo 400 or something but a T56 would be a better choice.

 

Wouldn't be a 383 then would it?
383 is 4.030" bore with a 3.750" stroke

 

True but he was more trying to convey his idea than be 100% on the terminology. Sure its only a 377 or so but we still get his point, and thats all that matters. Im only bringing this up cause people do this to me too when i say things in an under-detailed way just to convey a point, and a very detail-oriented person always steps in and tries to correct me and make me look like a moron. Not saying you are, or did, thats just my reasoning for bringing it up.

Thank you for the correction though, a 383 is in fact a 30-over 350 block, a standard bore is a 377 or 378

 

I agree with mustangdmuderer in the sense that the 302 is different, I showed a lot of my friends, who claimed to know everything about chevys an article on a 69 Z28 with the 302 and they were puzzled saying why does the camaro have a ford engine?

But on the other hand I agree with everyone else, about how it may not be worth the time to do it, I wanted to destroke the 350 I had to make it rev higher, but my dad convinced me it wouldn't be a good idea for the street, or track unless I'm constantly revving the heck out of it.

All I can say is Dare to Be Different

 

Exactly, and remember, the only reason GM made a 302 was because they couldnt use the 350 in the Trans Am series due to the displacement cap. If they couldve used the 350 you can damn sure bet they wouldve. Its a much more "squared" motor than the 302 and the rotating assembly is the same weight anyway so both will spin just as easily. The big things that made the 302 the legend it is is the forged internals, special heads, special intake, and 13:1 compression. All of this you can do with a 350 today and make more power (essentially the original LT1 motor from 1970 was the 350 version of the 302, and its now a legend in its own right, just not so much because it didnt get famous in its own racing series). The point is both the 302 and 350 will rev the same, both will use the same bolt-ons either way, and modern day bolt-ons are even better than even the highest performance bolt-ons from the 67-69 motors. Really the 350 will do all the same tricks the 302 would do if built the same, but i still think the slight decrease in power is worth it just for the cool factor that...nobody has tried it. Be the first, be original, try something new, not everything has to be built to squeeze every fraction of horsepower possible out of it. What most people dont realize is a 14-second car sounds mediocre or slow when talking about it on the internet, but a 14-second car in actuality is a damn fast car on the street. Just do it, have fun with it, and let us know how it goes. Who knows, you might be on to something with this build that nobody ever discovered because they were never brave enough to try it

 

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/...d/viewall.html

check this out, pretty neat article. Google "modern 302 chevy build" and check out a few of the articles that pop up. If these high end engine builders think its interesting enough to still do it then there must be something good about it

 

You want to be different with a small block, build a small block 396....build a 377.....build a 406, or a 434...... i still like the idea of the briggs and straton if you truley want to be different....Heres the deal. Lots of teenagers are getting third gens now days, and they read a little bit on the net and think they are master engine builders.... They will make that one small cid motor that will beat up on the 350+ cid sbcs.... "Im gonna build a 302 to be different" "im gonna keep mine a 305 to be different" we have heard this time and time again.... Ive been on and off this site for years. Its this idiocy that makes me shake my head and flee tgo.....My hat is off to these moderators and site regulars who stay here year after year trying pointlessly to steer people in the right direction and help answer the questions when they arise. Yet people still just keep repeating the same idiotic questions, and theorys. We dont say that there is no replacement for discplacement because we have a vendetta against small engines. Its just simply put the larger the displacement the more potential for power.....As aleardy stated, THE ONLY REASON THE SBC 302 EXISTED WAS BECAUSE OF TRANS AM RACING CID RESTRICTIONS....not becasue the 302 has the potential to be a great motor.... I like 302s, they belong in 1st gen camaro Z28S ONLY....anything else is kinda pointless unless your in some strange race class. You have already proved you do not understand engine theory, but you are convinced you do. So no amount of talking by any of us is going to make a dent. Your young and stuck in your ways. I sugest opening your mind and heeding the advice your given, or be prepared to live a long and painful life doing dumb things over and over agiain to be different.....

 

Yeah I know I just forgot what an unbored one was called.

 

How have I "You have already proved you do not understand engine theory"? Cause I want to build a 302 and want to but a 305 back into my Camaro? I never argued with the fact that a bigger motor with same parts will make more power. I simply want to build a 302 cause its never done and it would be something really cool to see and do. (By the way I am not putting a 305 in my Z28 to be different. I am doing it because its the correct engine for it. Last time I checked a 305 in a thirdgen wasn't exactly rare or different.)

 

Just curious, how well would the LT1 intake work with the 302? I was told the TPI was a lot better for low end. I might have gone 302 on my LT1 build if I knew it was going to turn into a complete build. If you build I would like to here a sound clip

 

If I build one I will definitely post a video of it running on here.

 

That was a good read and imagine what that thing could do with a supercharger or twin turbos.

 

I completely understand what you are saying. I really wanted a 327 in mine when I first bought my '83 Z28. On the fact alone that it is different since everyone has a "tree-fiddy."(350)

You said you wanted top end speed, and your 16, you better be taking it to a track because that is a recipe for the grave. Why not make some crazy torque monster that will burn your tires and impress your friends, and WIN RACES? There is nothing more satisfying than accelerating and being pulled back into the seat.

I was just about to say that a 302 with a large turbo would make for a hell of a motor haha.

 

Cause I want to go fast. I mean really fast. Plus I am sure it would still do burn outs. I know that thing would be pushing well over 600HP with a blower. haha

 

If you want to go fast find a LSx and then turbo that. Although in the end it will probably not matter because none of this will ever actually happen. 600hp not any time soon.

 

Midias haha You are probably right, but who knows I am a pretty crazy person when I get my hands on the money I might just do it.

 

And It might actually happen because up here people want to drill for natural gas and my dad might getting some serious money off of that. It normally wouldn't matter if my dad had money or not cause I buy my own parts but this engine would be for us making a race car that he would probably keep.

 

16 years old? I say learn how to drive first then think about speed and building an insane engine. Enjoy what you have now and have fun. Alot of kids want fast cars and get into wrecks killing themselves or other people. You have thhe rest of your life to go fast bro.

 

I know how to drive. Just learned how to in a Saturn like 4 monthes ago in a Saturn that I repaired when I was 14 after it was totaled. haha Don't worry I don't speed. This wouldn't be a street car it would have way too high of an RPM range to be a street car. It would be race car. It isn't going to my Camaro I am gonna buy a stock LG4 to put into my Camaro.

 

110rwhp Saturn is a big leap to 490rwhp Camaro haha. Like i said before, if you want to do it, just do it. Obviously its not a bad formula, the SuperChevy guys did it and got great results so honestly the whole "build a 350 or a 383 or its junk" stuff is just fanboy bandwagoning. Hell for a long time i was set to build an Olds 455, why? Because its NOT a 350, and because its NOT a 454. Through research i learned to love the Olds 455 and now its one of my favorite motors, even though 90% of hotrodders will say "its undersquare, outdated, problematic, expensive, yada yada" but did they ever build one? No, they did exactly what you did, heard about it online or from a friend. So why is their oppinion on it any better then yours? Even if they're a seasoned engine builder who has built 800 motors, if they havent built a 302 it doesnt really matter.

I love LSx motors, im a huge fan of them, and if thats the way you choose to go then thats awesome too, theres sooo much room for expansion in the LS platform. But everyone who was doing LS swaps was doing it because it hadnt been done before and was unique. Well now it has..a lot lol. Tons of people have put them in just about everything, the whole "unique" factor is pretty dulled out now. Its still a great motor going in a great car and makes for a very fun and interesting driver. But its just doesnt have that wow factor anymore. So if youre really wanting to be different (especially for cheap) this 302 is the way to go. SuperChevy made 519hp with it so its no slug at all. Hell a 305 will do anything a 350 will do part for part just with 20-30 less torque, and they arent bore-monsters like the 302 so go for it

Also i gotta ask now, what is this motor going into? If not a Camaro?

 

Not sure yet. I'll get a roller and build the car for the motor maybe another early thirdgen, maybe an old Nova or Corvette. Just depends what I can get a good deal on, but still like the car. By the way I love the Olds 455s those things are torque monsters.

 

You should look for a G-body Cutlass and find a 455 to dump in it. All Olds motors are interchangeable, you can use the same mounts for a small block on a big block, the same brackets, even the same water pump, its about the easiest small block for big block swap out there. They make loads of torque (500 at factory stock) and the cranks can safely be offset ground out to 4.5" stroke making a nice 488 big block for cheap. They get better mileage than Chevy big blocks but the parts are more expensive. Its not as bad as you might think though. They only rev to about 5500 but they only need too, they have the longest stroke of any of the Chevy, Buick, Pontiac, and Olds factory motors and with some of the newer Edelbrock heads and a cam they make great horsepower too. And the best part, nobody but you will be an expert on your motor, trying to tell you what you did right or wrong or trying to tell you exactly what your car can or cant run. I like the fact that its different. And theyre just monster motors. Not to mention they're lighter than BBC and stronger block/mains (they were 2-bolt for a reason, they only needed 2-bolts). They have oiling problems at high RPMs (half the reason why you shift at 5500) but the oiling issues are easy to fix, a lot easier than a Buick and a lot cheaper and more unique than a Pontiac

 

I didn't know a 455 would fit a G-body. I always have wanted to build a Rocket. I thought the Pontiac, Buick and Oldsmobile 455s where all the same block with different parts.

 

Not at all, theyre completely different motors. Buick has the largest bore, Chevy has the 2nd largest bore, Olds has the longest stroke, and Pontiac has the 2nd longest stroke. None of the heads interchange between brands, although With Pontiac and Olds heads will swap within the brands (so an Olds 350 head will work on a 403 or 455) yes a 455 will fit in a G-body, many people do it. Its actually not a very physically large motor just kinda wide, its only 2" taller and wider than the Olds 350 "small block". Itd be a simple swap and would be a hell of a rocket of a car. Another idea would be to put a Pontiac 400 into a 3rd gen Firebird, they have a sticky about those swaps here on thirdgen.org. F-bodies handle way better than G-bodies but G-bodies are typically better for drag racing so it depends on which kind of racing you wanna do, drag or road course. Me id like to have a fast road course car that can drag if i want it too. Its a lot easier to drag a road course car than it is to make a drag car handle to a road course. If youre interested in the G-body idea or even an old 68-72 A-body you can PM me, i have loads of info on all of that stuff and i have a 72' Cutlass Supreme and 2 Olds 455s for sale right now. If youre interested that is. I still like the 302 idea as well but a 302 and a 455 are complete opposite ends of the spectrum haha. 302 is a high winding fine edged sword and the 455 is a low-end brute of a sledgehammer haha. You can tell an Olds motor by the "oil snorkle" in front, its a big tube that sticks up on the front passenger side of the motor. Again, if youre interested in this kinda stuff you can PM me and i'll tell you all about it and point you in the right direction

PS: Guys, be helpful, please. Dont chastize someone just for bringing up an idea you dont personally believe in. Even if its constructive criticism, its still criticism and you wouldnt like it if you were on the other end of it either. Just be polite and helpful, thats what we're all here for anyway. Thanks

 

i think everyones just trying to help him not make a mistake in the long run. i had the be different mindset and still do. i put together a 338 using a 307 block and while it put down great number it didnt last very long i ended up turning most of the engine internals to bits after awhile, it was indeed a hackjob, an impressive one but i dont condone it. listen to everyone when they say theres no replacement for displacement. if your looking for gas mileage on a budget with power then dont drive something old with a sbc.

 

Thats interesting how did you do that? What crank? If I am looking for displacement why go small block? Big block is the way to go if you're just looking for displacement.

 

i had a ton of random sbc parts at the time. one day for a school project i took leftover parts 3.48 stroke with a 307 chevel1e block 60 over which i believe was 3.905? dont remember what rods i ended up going with. i basically threw the thing together. my teacher supplied all new bearing/gaskets/and rings but that was about it. the rest was random as you could say junkyard parts. we ran it straight engine and it made almost 390. then we hacked together a 3.8 supercharger onto it with as much boost as we could and it hit 410 and then the internals turned into metal shavings. it was fun while it lasted. just an expirement to test out my teachers friends engine dyno. im not even sure how we got the numbers we did unless the machine was wrong.

yes if your looking for displacement go bbc or ls or ltx. but dont just jump into ltx or lsx you have alot of reading to do before that

 

Haha I wish I had the money to just experiment with a motor. Nah Cadillac 500. haha

 

didnt really have any money into. it was all old parts, or favors from people the teacher knew. it definitely wasnt a safe engine. i dont want to think how thin the cylinder walls were. the rods we had shortened which probably wasnt very structurally sound. it was fun while it lasted

 

But it only lasted like a day? haha

 

no it lasted for awhile. we were taking it to 7000 rpms at the most each run. we ran it a few times as straight motor. then mocked up a nitrous setup for it. ran it a few times then we used nitrous and a 3.8 supercharger that we put as much boost through it as possible and then she died. it was about a good 15 plus runs. they werent gentle runs either. we never broke the engine in we used old oil, never let the rings set in etc. we just ran the crap out of it. it was an expirement the block was one of two i got for free and we said hey why not

 

You should have broke in it first a 350 will do that too if you don't break it in.

 

it probably wouldnt have helped much tbh. the block was pretty trashed. we shouldve but we didnt and it was extremely fun while it lasted being the school project. we learned to port stuff, weld, etc all because of that. it was like the class demonstration engine build i guess you could say. the crank was gouged to hell. two of the mains were mushroomed to hell and we fixed that with a dremel and different caps. so yea it wouldve blown up regardless and we werent really at any loss since everything was stuff that was laying around

 

Yeah it would have anyway if it was that bad. haha

 

With a weight penalty
You can build a 454ci SBC without the extra weight of a BBC

 

A 454ci Small block?

 

yeah a 454 sbc is an overbore with a different crank that has a much longer stroke

 

It's not those most durable of street motors with the wrist pin in the middle of the compression rings, but it can be done. For the extra money you spend to build one, you can build a mild 454 bbc and put some awesome aluminum heads on it and make way more power. Just a lot more potential in hte BBC platform and that goes way past displacement.

 

I don't think that would be the sturdiest motor though.

 

Yeah if I were to go over 383 I would go big block.

 

why not? they crank out some power. you have to special order the crank and they are made out of some extremely sturdy stuff. people who build them tend to go all out to so all the internals and top of the line so nothing is really there to break

 

look the biggest difference is the crank when it comes to a 302. it uses a 3" crank, put that in a 350 use the stock rods if you want and use 350 pistons, 2.02 valved heads and put a decent cam in it an toss it in something, I built one last year and had it my 86 firebird! was great on the track and terrible on the road. I had a th350 trans behind it with and OD unit and it wasnt much fun or that great on gas on the street at all. so I pulled it, put it in my 1982 T/A for now, might just tear it down and start all over and stroke it. currently I am running an olds 403 in my 86 and love it! had to strengthen the mains and I put a set of 1968 buick 350 heads on it and a hotter cam. great engine and tons of fun on the street! build what you like. I thought, like you I assume, the 302 was different and no one has them and it would be a hell of an engine, so I built the damned thing and found it wasnt for me. I like the idea of trying vortec heads and TPI, maybe ill try that before tearing it down and swapping the crank back.

 

600Hp
Runs on 91
2 year warranty

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...e/viewall.html



Aftermarket Motown block and HD parts .
4340 crank and rods
No stock parts

http://www.theengineshop.com/product...4---600hp.html

 

for the love of god dont build a 302 and just listen to the guys who know what there talking about, and this is comming from a guy that likes not so common combos

i built a destroked 3.4L v6 destroked to 3.0L to turn 9,000 rpms, sure it made awsome power up high with the turbo but the valve train let loose on the first dyno pull, unless u get some really good valvetrain components the same thing will happen to the 302
not to mention the 350 can rev just as high as a 302/327 with the right parts and will make more power


and just to add to that my destroked motor great for the track with a 5,000 rpm stall converter, but absolutly sucks for the street i wouldnt even drive the thing 3 blocks to get milk damn thing only makes power from 5,000-8,700 rpms

hell a worn out bone stock 305 or 2.8 car would walk on my 3.0L motor till it got to about 7k rpms


again this is comming from somone who builds stuff to be different

3.1L v6 making over just shy of 400 crank hp and 480 tq
3.0L v6 that dynoed 600
355 sbc with twin turbos

 

Short and easy answers:

Yes you can use the 350 block but you will have to get large journal crank which is likely a "special" order since it is not something you are going to get from the wreckers...

As many have noted here, it will cost more per HP but at the same time it is your money and your car. I am sure if we look at many street cars on this board we will find all kinds of stuff that cost more (be it paint, stereo, whatever) and did less but it was the car owner's taste. The motor is a matter of taste as well.

At the end of the day it is still a SBC, it will look like a SBC, it will sound more or less like a SBC (yes the 302 will have a slightly different sound to us piston heads, we here it, to the general public they will not), it will also taste and smell like a SBC.. Is it really all that different in the end? So is it really all that outside the box, after all there is something like 90 million SBC motors...

There are some guys here (in other threads) that are being different, inline 6, diesel motor, viper motor, ecotech, LS corvette chassis... that is different, SBC regardless of displacement not so much.

If you want to go chev v-8 why not go further outside the box?

• 400 block with 3" stroke crank (although still a SBC, it is about the same amount of effort)?
• 302 LSX or LT1?
• Twin Turbo 267 with TPI (this is likely a bad idea, but may be a good mileage and power combo)?

In the end most of these will also make less HP/$ than a 350 or 383, all are about as logical as a 302... Not saying don't do a 302, it is entirely possible but it in the end is not all that different.

 

Yeah I see your point. It would have to be a strictly race car engine cause it isn't really good at lower RPMs a different motor probably would be a better idea.

 

I have always wanted to twin turbo a 305 which would be similar to doing it to a 267.