I'm having a problem deciding. I'm in Afghanistan and I'm trying to decide what engine I want built for my Camaro so I'll have it when I get back home. I've been thinking mostly about either a 383 stroker or a 400 SBC. As of right now, I'm leaning more towards the 400 because its bigger and I feel like it has more potential for power than the 383. I mean, I can always bore and stroke the 400 if I want to. So I'm asking advice. What would you guys do? And don't worry about putting money into the question. Once I get ideas I'll decide what I want to spend and if I think its worth it.

 

Depends which block you have.

 

Well I'm gonna buy a new one either way because I'm putting my current engine in another camaro. I just gotta figure out which one I want to buy. So I'm buying a brand new engine either way.

 

Get the World 454SBC, and call it done,LOL 600hp 600 lbs feet of torque, and with a 2 year warranty.

 

This is the first time I've ever heard of 454 SBC. Only the BBC. I'll look into it real quick....

Wow, the 454 SBC is a beast! Of course I would want the aluminum heads, but thats $10,500. I'll have to consider it...

 

you can start off with a 427/434/454 sbc.. check out, wheeler power prodcts.

grab a short block all done in the CID ya want under $4300 (brand new AFTERMARKET block)

then get the Heads ya want min of 220 runners ($1800)

ya can piece it together..or have them do it..and way under $10.000

me i started off with a 427. can always move upto a 434 or 454 with over boring.
they dont sound like a small block anymore also..

 

Grab a Dart Little M bore and stroke to your hearts content

Cant buy a new GM block and they are way way weaker smaller cooling jackets etc

Using an Old GM 400 block is a roll of the dice. Seen them machine and assemble perfect only to crack into the cyl when torquing the heads down.

Just never know with those....have a perfect magged/acid dipped/virgin bore 400 and hesitant to builld it .

That 454 SBC is nice only problem is it wont handle one overbore.
If youre anything like myself you wont care..youll get bored and move on before you ever wear it out lol.

 

or just turbo boost it and have the best of both worlds drivablity and insane wheelie popping dragster.

 

The large displacement SBC engines need to be built with aftermarket blocks. An OEM 400 block just doesn't have enough metal in it to make a powerful large displacement.

383 or 400? Well, if you have a 400 core with a rebuildable casting then build a 400/406 instead of using the parts to build a 383. With the availability of aftermarket parts and the scarcity of 400's (last made in 1979), you could build either one for about the same price.

Typical, reliable large displacement for a SBC is 434. Getting bigger than that in a SBC platform starts to use more exotic parts. Don't forget that the bigger the engine, the more air you need to get into the cylinders. A 454 SBC will struggle to make any kind of good power with a factory head and an expensive huge flowing SBC head is still no match for the amount of air a basic OEM casting BBC head on a 454 BBC can do.

Stroke makes torque. Bore makes HP. The 383 and 400 use the same stroke. The 400 has a larger bore. With all parts being equal, it's easier to make more power with a 400 than it is with a 383.

 

The last factory 400 block I built I pitched 3 blocks b4 getting a "good" one.

Go with a aftermarket block if your going 4 any kind of decent power..

 

Yea, I will be buying a brand new aftermarket engine when I do get one. I'm not going to get an old used one. I'm still leaning towards the 400 and I was also planning to bore and stroke it to probably 406. I appreciate all the help and advice so far everyone. Keep it up.

 

Thank you for your service.

 

Just a FYI, 406 is just a simple "30" over, no extra stroke.

 

Yea thats my mistake. I was actually thinking 434.

 

Atta boy !!!!

 

As said many times, finding a good 400 block may be difficult. If you want a 400, i'd recommend dart SHP block for 1800 blueprinted and machined from CNC Blocks Northeast. Carl can set you up with a rotator as well, ready to bolt in. Thats how he did mine for my twin turbo car.

Else a 383 will do very well. Find a factory 4 bolt roller block or buy the summit racing 383 block for 600 bucks. Good deals either way. Find a machine shop you trust that can set everything up.

383 will get to 400whp easy. 406 can get 450+ without too much effort, but really depends on how nuts you wanna get.

I recommend factory OEM style roller cam blocks since alot of parts for our cars are based around the factory roller block from flexplates+starters, torque converters for 700r4 trans with lockup, cams timing chains, rear main seals etc. Plus hyd roller cams are awesome for street and no cam break in or special oils required. WELL worth the extra cost. More power too and smoother operation. Dart SHP is also setup like oem roller blocks except not a 1 piece rear main seal but its no big deal, just need a new starter and flexplate since you'll need a 168 tooth wheel.

If your shooting for 500hp or so or less than that on motor, go 383 its cheaper to do and easier to do (no finding a block or buying 1800 SHP block). 550 is doable on a gooood 383 but its better suited for a 400.....it will be more streetable.

 

I have seen kits for a 401 out of the factory roller block and it isn't much mor than the 383. Next factory block I build will be around that for size..

 

My one local friend has one in his 83 z28. think its actually a 408" now. LONG stroke motor. I dont like it because you realllly need to machine clearance block to fit it and its getting close to water jackets and such. Half fill would make me alittle more comfortable but could hurt cooling abit.

Plus with such long stroke you lose out on piston comp height and rod length... Harder to turn rpms with those motors, get alot of stress on the rod bolts as piston speeds are up. He turns his to 6100 or so from what i've seen...makes 550whp on spray... higher 11's on motor, 10's on spray. Its been holding so obviously when done right it can live, its just something I'd be abit more nervous about building. Compression is higher too with the 4" stroke. Typical 383 is 11 to 1 with 64cc head...401 would be 11.7 with same flat top and thats getting very high for pump gas with a realistic streetable cam I'd go 75cc heads and shave them down abit to keep comp between 10.5-11 to 1.

 

If I had it to do over again, I'd overcome my tendency to be a massive cheapskate and do an SHP 406. After reading up on them, the only downside to those are the 2 pc. RMS, which isn't that big of a deal, just kinda' weird as, IMHO, the 1pc. are a lot better. But, dollar for dollar, those are a hell of a deal. And, at this price, it's not worth getting dirt under your fingernails:
http://www.tristarengines.com/catalo...shp-block.html

 

A lot of guys get scared about turning some Rs with a stroker motor.. I don't worry to much.
I helped a friend build a 557 BBF and he spins it VERY hard. I have been in the car an saw over 8k rpm.
I spin my my lil 400 close to that every time it leaves the garage. As gramps always said, If your ducks are in a row they'll be flying together and not apart!

The 1piece motor should have a lil concrete in it to make it safer but its recomended to use the vortec truck block because of less core shift and a lil more meat for clearancing.
Cooling isnt really a issue with a short fill..

 

That is true. A Stroker is one thing, but a super stroker will have higher piston speeds. . Now it seems a 4" crank could swing 7500 without being really concerned. 3.75 can get to 8000 and see similar speeds. Big difference. Higher you go more money in light parts is needed. For most tho under 6500 rpm is the norm and it will be fine. Just alot of clearancing the block and possible really small base circle cams... Just extra headache

 

I kinda got the hookup from my uncle who builds engines for drag. That's who I'm getting to build it for me. So I'm leaving it to his judgement on finding parts for the most part. It's just a little hard for me to contact him out here. But what I'm mostly looking into right now is the 434. I'm liking all these ideas though. Useful stuff. Makes the mind really think. Makes such a hard choice too...

 

What we are talking about is a over square engine and all through controversial rod ratios of long rod vs short rod.

http://www.strokerengine.com/RodStroke.html

 

I know what a stoker engine is. All I wanted to know is what engines people thought were the better choice from past experience.

 

Just trying to point the upside and the downside of any engine you want to build where some of those guys with their personal experience might not even know that.The ratios towards the bottom of the link are pretty useful too.
The aftermarket blocks for power output are a good choice,but not a end all to be all.Some need additional machine work as our 565 BBC's lifter bores had to be sized correctly.We didn't know that and it ended up costing us a very nice set of heads with broken rocker stud bosses that could not be repair.You have to be sure if you find "a deal" on a aftermarket block that it is machined ready for assembly.Some out there are
raw castings.We have gone in a SBC as big as a 434.

 

Ignore all the short/long rod business for the time being, and start with the basics.

What is your goal? (what will the car be used for)

What it your budget? (don't forget that if you're starting out with a stock vehicle, the more you build up the motor, the more you'll have to build up the rest of the car as well... trans, rear end, suspension, cage, fuel system, and so on, might enter the picture, depending on where you want to end up; and your budget needs to account for that, i.e. don't spend every penny you've got on some mountain motor, and then have a car that keeps you from being able to use it right)

Then forget all the rod length and BBF crap and we can settle down to some serious business.

Get back home safe!!

 

Since we don't want to hear about BBFs,
I also know guys with 5" plus stroke Pontiac motors that spin them to 8k.
Buuuut for 95% of the guys on this board, they wont need that sillyness. A nice stroked 400 will make the tq, you just need to have the cam, heads and supporting stuff to make the HP number fall where you want them to.

Budget and your plans 4 the car are key in what you decide.

 

I appreciate it. The whole reason for rebuilding my precious car is because my mom has recently wrecked it while I've been in Afghanistan. So while I'm fixing it, I figured I'd drop a new engine in it too. And get it back to it's former show car form. It is my daily driver tho. I've never lost a street race and I'd like this new engine to help me keep it that way lol. I plan to take it back to car shows just like I used to. Also, I already know the more power, the more the rest needs to be built. Such as me replacing the 700r4 with a TREMEC t56. But I'm glad you mentioned it just because no one else did. My budget is about $11,000 for the time being. Maybe I'll drop more depending on what it's for. I'd like to get at least about 500hp, but I will NEVER complain about any extra hp. Anymore questions, just ask. Thanks again you guys for the ideas.

 

The ref link includes SBC's if you take time to read it all.

Long rod ratios and over square engines do impact life expectancies of parts in the long run and are a important part of decisions made on which engine to buy.You are ill advised to ignore that.Also when you said you are not interested in what it costs,that opens the door on many possibilities.I'm passing along real street end results of what you should expect to have to do given a plan to build whatever you decide.

A example of that is using a stock 400 block.Those do not have very stable bores.In fact they do move around quite abit.So if you do the right thing and part fill the block,use torque plates for the machining,drill steam holes for the heads, and then decide you want to save wt and buy aluminum heads,well buy filling the block you negated the wt saving of the heads and are not any further ahead.We have used the stock block 400s done right and they still come up with a different result everytime you leakdown test them.

Getting down to the business at hand is paying close attention to the details before you buy anything.You have already said what you expectations are and budget is.I am pointing out details to help answer your main question titled in the thread of"which one"??.

The O/P can expand suggestions if he wants advise of anything beyond the flywheel.But for now the topic is in the title of the thread.

 

If you didnt go aftermarket shp block for the 400-434 stuff, id build a typical 383 and add a 150 shot kit. Easy 10 sec car you can drive anywhere

 

Yea, I'm not really looking to go with any shot tho. But 383 WAS what I had planned to put in for the longest time. But I met a guy at a car show about 3 years ago that had the most beautiful 89 IROC I've ever seen. He had a 383 stroker, and I told him thats what I've been wanting. And he told me if he could go back and do it all over again, he'd go with a 400. That got me thinking and looking... And I pretty much decided on the 400. But even more recently, I've been thinking...If I go 400, why not just go 434? That's pretty much where I am right now.

 

Building a 434 is basically impossible out of stock parts. Not only the crank (since obviously there's no such thing as a "stock" that crank), but also, the rods.



That's a cap screw Eagle rod, vs a stock "X" rod. Now looking at that, which do you suppose will be easier to clearance for?

Keep in mind, the stock rod is SO big, it will hit the cam.

So, while the 434 in a stock block is a perfectly do-able combo, it's not cheap, and not for the faint of heart. It would probably cost something around $1500 - 2000 MORE to build a 434 than to rebuild a stock 400, by the time you buy a crank, rods, pistons, and all the labor... and that's ASSUMING you use a STOCK block. DOUBLE that cost differential if you use an aftermarket block.

A stock 400, or for that matter a 383, is PLENTY for most people, especially for a car that will be a daily driver. The incremental cost of a 434 doesn't justify the incremental improvement for most people in that application.

400 blocks are getting harder to find, but are by no means "rare".

The main advantage of a 383 is that you can build one out of a newer 350 block, WITHOUT all the pesky 70s quality control problems, and WITH the factory roller setup (again, look carefully at the cost of the old "real" roller system and compare to the cost of just re-using an existing factory roller).

I would suggest ignoring all the rod-length monkey-spank and concentrate on GOAL and BUDGET, first and foremost. The whole rod-length deal is such a tiny and trivial factor to the TOTAL outcome of the TOTAL project, it will disappear into the noise level. Most engines can get a greater power improvement just from TUNING than from spending giga$$$$ on unnecessarily long rods. There is really only one reason to use a longer rod, in a setting like what it appears up to this point that you are looking for; and that is, longer rods in a long-stroke motor allow the use of an internally balanced crank. All the other effects of them are SO slight, SO tiny, and SO marginal, as to be insignificant in anything less than an all-out race effort motor.

In my experience, a stock 400 block has MORE STABLE cylinders than a 350, because they're all one solid assembly on each side, instead of 4 individual sleeves.

 

as stated, shortblock doesnt really matter. the power is all in the heads/cam/intake. spend most of your money on that stuff, and whatever is left over build a shortblock that will handle the power/rpms.

 

That's true. Thats some good advice. See what I want, put a price on it and the spend the rest on a good block for it.

 

My GM dealer just made me a deal on a 572 crate. list is over $1400.00 (4.375 stroke)
(19201334 - ZZ572/720 Crate Engine) i got it for $9600

only took them selling my 502 ramjet that was paid for. (got back $496.00 cash back)
(the price for a FI intake..lol)
and going almost 8 months with no update. till a dealer on the west side of the state got the 572 by mistake...oopsy
19201334 - ZZ572/720 Crate Engine (720 hp /600+ fpt

ZZ572/720R Deluxe Crate Engine (19201334) SpecificationsCompression:12.0:1Block:Sportsman Tall Deck Bow TieBore Diameter (in.):4.560Camshaft:Solid Roller, 0.714 / 0.714Crankshaft:Forged 4340 SteelHorsepower:720 @ 6250 RPMIntake Manifold:Not IncludedMax RPM:6750Stroke (in.):4.375Torque:685 ft/lbs @ 4500 RPM

the only bad this is.. I STILL DONT HAVE MY 502 RAMJET
that was to be drop in..(plug and play)

and so till the car gets back halfd..im using the 427 sbc and a 4" stroke.
(and AFR 220 elmtr heads) nice set of heads for a 420+ sbc

 

Ditto on the heads intake etc. point.

Not a whole lot of sense in spending a wheelbarrow of cubic $$$ on some monster short block, then strangling it with inferior induction.

The 400 is already too big for any stock SBC heads to feed really adequately, even Vortecs. Any build that goes BEYOND that will CERTAINLY need good, high-flowing aftermarket heads; and CERTAINLY if the extra cost is going to pay off. And I mean GOOD heads, not just the cheeeeeeeeeeeeepest thing you can find that says "head" on the box, like all the Chinese junk flooding the market.

So add another $1500 - 2000 for a pair of heads of appropriate design, properly prepped for the situation, in your 434 type of budget calculations. Unless you want to spend $5000 to get just basically a mid-70s sedan motor, like the 455s and such that came in the land barges of the day... HUGE torque from all the cubes (NOT from the name on the valve covers, contrary to popular monkey-spank about how "{insert non-Chevy brand name here} motors are TORQUE MONSTERS"), but no corresponding HP from lacking the ability to support high flow at high RPMs. Not a real effective use of piles of $$$$$$$$.

 

The point about a long rod engine is everyone has gone to a 6" rod.Lingenfelter,Howards,everyone.This makes rocking of the pistons more stable and lessens wear and allows the piston to dwell longer at TDC.But I am not real happy about pin locations and having to use ring spacers on a street engine.I got one of the last Howards 5.7 383 cranks.They don't make them anymore.Anything Eagle is apart of that imported junk with a number of Q.C.problems from poorly machine bearing spec's to the circle track guys having just behind number 2 main bearing failures where the crank cracked.I worked at a Chevy engine plant in Tonn,NY while 400's while being built in the dyno rm.We where well aware if how the cylinders moved around and did whatever we could to resolve that.It was/is a poor design in the cooling system and decks of the block.It is one of the reasons filling the blocks came about.With torque plates and filling the block,you could see a noticeable difference in the results in finished machine bores.

I fought getting a 383 to a reasonable compression ratio for today's gas.Sure seems the industry is geared towards racing set-ups,but middle of the road engines not so much.

The idea of big inch SBC's is cool,you got me thinking that for your goals,a BBC would get you there a whole lot easier.Or a LS answer with it's power and reliability might be a better solution.A install of the new LS in your car would be pretty cool as a show car.

I agree that for a SBC or for that matter any engine,good flowing heads are critical.And when you considering a big inch SBC 210cc or better head is needed.The thing is try to find a head that is going to end up with a reasonable compression ratio for today's gas.If I have one regret in building my 383 is I didn't build a LS engine.

 

Thank you for your service, and ditto get home safe.

SBC's, gotta love 'em, but frankly, they're history.

Find an LQ4 or LQ9, get a stroker kit for it (will put it in the 400 CID range). Already has long rods, so that discussion is now moot. 500 HP is a piece of cake with factory heads, CNC ported or aftermarket heads can produce even more. EFI for daily driving. The swap and tuning costs will be a little higher, especially exhaust; although long tube SBC headers, which would be required for a big-inch SBC, would be a must, and cause all sorts of new problems (especially for a DD), so that's really a wash. But, no aftermarket block required, so it can be done for $11k. T56 from a '98-'02 f-body is a natural fit.

That's what I would do (since you asked).

 

i would take Five7kid's advice, even though potentially a little more expensive, you will be happier in the long run. Taking from my experience with my current build, I wish I could start over and build a nice lsX, i really feel i would be further ahead for the same $$.

Tell you what, I will sell you my very low mile SBC build for 60% of my build cost. You will get a solid 383, i can move onto a new setup.

Good luck with your decision.

 

If you want to do an LS-type swap, part of the extra cost seems to be aftermarket brackets and pulleys required to keep A/C, pwr steeering, without notching & welding the K member for clearance.

Those bucks could go towards a set of 215 AFR Eliminator heads, hyd roller cam, 9" or 12 bolt rear end, with a beefier trans to get all that torque to the ground reliably.

An old-school sbc slips in a lot easier.

Thanks for your service.

 

double posted

 

Wow.11grand??. I didn't think they cost that much.Well I learned something here.But I am times 3 on the suggestions.They are a good investment in they are practical, reliable,proven performance,that if done right would look sharp in you car.

 

my $.022341

Cost per HP vs reliability is essential as daily driver math.
You cannot just say, one engine is better because it is "bigger", since the cost of building, or the reliability issues may outweigh the horsepower you get in return (like old 400 blocks that might be reliable).
If I pay an additional $5k for an extra 50 cubic inches that is not NEARLY the same return as investing $5k into a forced induction setup on the smaller engine.


That said, Forced induction is the key to getting the most from your displacement. With only 150 cubic inches, I can produce over 500 horsepower on pump gas before 8,000rpm. Now, what can I do with 300 cubic inches? The limitation is now in the strength of the components- NOT the size of the engine!

So build it right, build it affordable, as small as necessary, use as many OEM components as possible- and leave room in the combustion chamber for a false atmosphere!

 

I think you need to pay to build one first.............then talk about costs.