I was doing some reading today about the NASCAR engines being used by Chevy for racing and it got me wondering if anyone here has put/plans to put an SB2 or R07 motor in their car?

 

I think if i dont go big block i may look into sb2 style induction packages, 15-18 deg sbc heads for the better flow potential.

The valve angle makes them superior in power production over standard heads. But at that cost i think a bbc would make more sense here. More inches and more hp per dollar i think is posssible

 

They are expensive, no doubt, best price I've seen so far aftermarket is $18K...you can get an LS7 for less if you want. I was just curious to see who has thought about doing this swap and if they had done it, what sort of reliability for a daily driver/summer cruiser it has.

 

Most of those heads are tiny chambers so high compression but if you could get comp suitable for pump gas they would make pretty fun street motors. Definately high winders. They have big intake ports so big inches and or high rpm would fit their use best

 

Unless you actually wanted to go around turns with it, in which case a BBC should be avoided like the plague.

 

If you look into whats available EVERYTHING is designed for extreme high RPMs. The parts just arent there to try and make one streetable.

 

I know a guy that gets hendrick motorsports used parts and they are very cheap. Heads that are complete are under 2 grand. A block is around a grand or a little more. They use 283 mains on the newer stuff. I have been looking into it and they are great engines but the only thing I would change would be a stroker crank. They are limited to 355 cubic inches or so and if you had one of those engines in the 400-421 inch range the power and torque would be well above a regular sbc. The blocks are very similar to an old school sbc but with added strength in the right areas. The heads flow incredible numbers and there are titanium valves for them used at under $200. Plus nascar is now efi so there efi parts could be adapted to ours probably.

 

there is a place in the Charlotte area that sells used NASCAR stuff... they offer (or at least they did a few years ago) a detuned SB2.2 with a more streetable cam and lower compression pistons for something like $10k..

for that money, i'd be getting an LS7 crate motor from GM and make similar power in a lighter and more compact package.

 

You mean muscle motorsports?

There are some people running SB2s or 2.2s on th street. I had ben thinking about it some tie, they are awesome motors. I decided to build a 495LSX.

 

Essentially the SB2 motors have the same port sizes of a BBC into a SBC head - so unless it is a 500ci engine, it is going to be very soft on the bottom end. So it would be pretty much no fun on the street - like a 1,000hp Supra or something like that.

 

Thats why I was mentioning the stroker crank. I have seen the blocks at 4.1?? bore which is very good especially mated to 4.00 or 4.125 crankshaft. The blocks can easily be clearanced for large cranks and I have seen a few done that way. I need to learn the difference between SB2.2 and R07 and how interchangeable they are. If a guy had a couple of blocks and a couple sets of heads and 4.125 cranks he would have a ton of power for a while. The nascar guys only use things for a short while and then go back new which keeps parts available for guys like us. I bought a ford 9 locker, daytona pinion support, polished 3.75 gears and some small parts from Hendrick motor sports back when it was just a two car team. The used parts were brand new looking. I even got a 1350 yolk for the rear that has the pulley on it for the rear end pump they use to keep the rears from burning up at Daytona and talladega. I never knew they polished gear sets untill I bought there gears.

 

In this case, definitely not worth it. If you want to stand apart from the turbo LSx swaps, do a new Hemi swap and add a turbo to that. But those are all iron block. Heck, you'd be better off trying to use a Ferrari Enzo engine, or even a Lambo Murciellago engine.

 

I say go for a big cubes 23 degree SBC engine - like the Dart shortblock. It would be absolutely no problem to get it to 600hp on the motor and be streetable with 210 or 220cc heads. LS7 or something similar works too...

 

some of the factory installed LS engine heads in new cars and trucks that they build by the thousands are pretty much "big block" ports, and they do just fine in the torque department on a 360ci engine.. but there is a lot more to it than port sizes- valve angle and placement is the biggest benefit to airflow and thus power making potential.

 

Absolutely - they work just fine with the big ports (although not truly BBC size, they would be at the largest end of 23 degree heads).

One thing I really like about the LS motors is the fact the bottom end is so strong from the factory - any of them can rev to 7k, if not more. Coupled with great heads and some other modern items, it is no wonder they can be over 10% more VE than a SBC and still have great low end TQ, driveability, and gas mileage.

 

The new ls7 heads flow fairly close to 400. I think the 350 to 400 cfm range is where the big dogs play. I think with a smaller cam and decent compression a sb2.2 or R07 would make a great street motor especially a 421 version. Nascar guys make around 900HP with them at 355CI so a 421 at 10,5 compression and a medium cam should make great torque and at least 700HP. But to install one in one our cars and adapt our efi to it would be the harder part of the equation. Nascar is now efi which would probably help but I don't know enough about one to even guess. I know I can get one for a decent price but thats about it. I wonder why nascar doesn't use ls based engines instead of the old school style?

 

While it is possible in theory to adapt our EFI to an SB2.2 or R07 engine, it would be a lot easier to use an aftermarket system like FAST or similar, which are pretty much infinitely adjustable.

Keep in mind that they are making 900hp in a very high winding 355 with over 125% VE, something a street engine cannot replicate at lower RPMs.

 

Yes, there engines entire reason for living is to wind from 8800 to 9600. They don't compromise because the engine has one job not like a street engine but the fact that they still use an old style type block with exotic type heads and not modern LS based engines says a lot. The Ford guys could use that Coyote style engine but they don't. I don't know all about the rules but you know with all the money involved in that sport they are not going to compromise on power and reliability. They are going to use the best stuff they have. They have many dynos that haven't shut off for decades trying for every last drop of power. I don't know the weight difference between a SBC and a LS based engine but I think it takes 1 horsepower for every 8 pounds so that could be part of why they have stayed old school. The best bang for the buck right now seems to be a used 6.0L with a cam and headers.

 

They use that block because the rules dictate it, however the R07 is a new block design, older 2.2 and prior stuff was similar to a "normal" sbc block.

See above on why ford doesnt use their new "coyote" engine, wouldnt fit in the rules.

They can in fact "use the best stuff they have" however the rule book limits them substantially on what they can do design wise.

 

I sure don't know the rules in nascar and have wondered why they are not using all LS stuff but there are a lot of politics in that sport like anything else. I know they are trying to keep cost down also which is smart so maybe they will pick a year for all of them to go to modern engines and then we would really see some power in the LS line of engines. Can you imagine what the heads would do after Hendrick Motor Sports worked on them for a year or two. In time the valves will be controlled by solenoids and depending on how far you press the accelarator will determine how far and for how long the valve will open. This will affect flow, duration etc. This will enable the engine to go from a stock 6 cylinder to a well built LS7 depending on how far you mash the gas.

 

you're confusing real world affordable engine technology with the stuff that Formula 1 teams were trying in the 90's when they were using solenoid controlled valves and other technological magic on their little 3 liter V12's to hit over 20,000 rpm. they cut back on that stuff and went back to camshafts to keep costs down.

the reason that NASCAR forces teams to run certain engines is because they are trying to keep them as equally matched as possible across all brands. they don't want the races to be like they were in the early 70's when the winner of the race had 2 laps or more on the 2nd place guy- they want as many cars as possible to be in it at the end, so they mandate maximum bore sizes, bore centers, maximum strokes, maximum valve sizes, certain throttle blade sizes, and about a million other little details that are meant to lower costs and equalize the different makes... Toyota and Ford don't even put a cam in block overhead valve V8 in anything any more, but they are forced by the rules to run engines with that configuration..

and it's not like the Hendrick and Earnhardt/Childress engine shops don't know how to make big power out of LS engines and have them live for long periods of being driven in anger, since both shops build LS based engines for cars that race in 24 hour endurance races all over the world.

personally, i'd love to see them run whatever engines they run in the production cars in the race cars- the Chevy SS would have a 6.2 liter LS engine that would be up against whatever DOHC V6 you get in Fusions and Camry's- unless you let them run the V8 that they put in other cars and trucks like NASCAR did as far back as the 60's, in which case the Fords would be running a 3 valve 5.4 and the Toyotas would be running a 5.7 (i think) DOHC V8 that they put in the Tundras.
but they don't. Chevy teams run the R07, which replaced the SB2 series, which was pretty much a head upgrade over the old 18 degree heads that they started running in the 80's, which was an upgrade over the standard 23 degree heads that every production small block had starting when the 265ci small block V8 was introduced in 1955.

a little background on what makes the R07 so damn awesome:

http://machinedesign.com/article/che...all-block-0207

 

A very good article explaining cam and crank location, piston squirters, 6 bolt head bolts and ls style heads. The R07 is definately the way to go. I still don't like Toyota in the game. They never hauled any moonshine and that should be rule #1 in every nascar book forever and all time. I understand why juniour Johnson got pissed and retired. I agree with having to run the motor that comes factory in the car you race. That was a rule forever way back then or at least 300 or 500 cars had to be sold to the public for it to be elligible. I don't like this one car for everyone. I haven't been into nascar since Dale died. It all went to pot then. Richard Petty said a couple of years ago that most of the drivers these days are small and not like the men of the old days. The old guys would steer the cars without power steering for 500 miles and most of the new drivers couldn't do it.

 

Ford got to use the 427 SOHC engine in the late 60's in the midsize cars they were running in NASCAR, but they never actually put that engine in anything besides a Mustang from the factory and i don't think they put too many Cleveland headed 351 Windsors in Thunderbirds (or anything else, for that matter) in the 80's.. Dodge was allowed to design a brand new engine design in the mid 90's when they started getting back into the NASCAR thing, despite still installing LA series small blocks in trucks at the factory..

Dale Sr won the Daytona 500 in 1998 in the debut race of the SB2 engine- an engine configuration that was never installed in anything at the factory that was in a body style that was only offered as a front wheel drive with the 3.8 V6 as the biggest oem engine option.

 

Actually, that motor (427SOCH) never got near a mustang from the factory.The only chassis it came in was the midsize (comet/galaxy).Five stang's were hand built for the super stock wars by the ford skunk works.

 

Did that ever work? I was under the impression we did not have fast enough acting solenoids or processors to control valve timing like that for high rpm use? That would be ideal but I didnt think it was ever a reality, atleast on high rpms because the time between open and close is so quick

 

NASCAR provides the controllers to the teams in a sealed box for the EFI systems that can not be modified or altered in anyway.That is unavailable to the general public.We used to pick up NASCAR parts out of the Indy Drag Racers auction when it was run by Indy Cylinder head.Well really there and at the Parts Peddler auction when the auction part of it was still going on in Syr,NY.What I have seen was real odd ball combo's.Truth of the fact is we bought a custom grind one dyno pull solid roller cam and put it into a 383.Guys told us no way we could win with a oval track cam,but we won a Can-AM national in a 9.90 car.So I guess there are still parts useful to be had.