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Engine SwapEverything about swapping an engine into your Third Gen.....be it V6, V8, LTX/LSX, crate engine, etc. Pictures, questions, answers, and work logs.
I just picked up this block. It has crank, rods and pistons. The guy said it was just rebuilt but not been started. Having a hard time believing it since there is carbon on the pistons but for 200.00 seems like it was still a good deal. I also get a set of vortex heads that were also redone and they appear to have never been installed since re-done. They are spot less, the heads are 14102193. I want to put this into my 1986 IROC and get rid of the tired 305 currently in it. From what I have read, it seems this may not be a good choice. Any thoughts, I am going to tear down the block and have it checked and cleaned, but it seems to be in good shape, almost hate to tear it down. For some reason, I feel I would feel more comfortable if I do since this will be my first engine build in over 35 years. I am hoping the internals are ok. The pistons say .20 so I know it was rebuilt at least once, according to the guy I got it from, it came out of his truck and decided after building the block and getting the heads worked, to put a LS in it. suggestions would be great.
Just to add, I will be going CARB since the original was carb and not use the CPU
Well I know now they are not Vortex but swirl heads that were used on trucks. I guess since they have been redone, should be worth something to someone build in a truck motor. Great for low end tork. Unless I can get a consensus here that I would be ok with them. I am not building a drag car but a decent performer for some fun.
The block, I am going to strip it completely down and have it checked at the machine shop. they told me they would dip, check for cracks, and tap the holes for the roller lifters. it has the bumps, just needs drilled a little and tapped. They said since I was replacing the cam bearings, it would be easy enough as not to worry about hitting the bearings while drilling them the rest of the way out. They said if it only needed honing and cleaned, it would be between 150 and 200. Does that sound right? The last block I had all this done to cost me 50.00 but that was in the 70's
This is new to me. Also looking for a set of roller lifters, guides, and spider plate
Also, I have a brand new Edelbrock 3702 Cam and Lifters for sale. Never installed or used, still in the original box, it came with the motor
With that part number I am guessing that they are 87+ center bolt heads? If yes, you are correct on that. Plain Jane truck heads that come on a lot of crate engines. If I am correct, the heads that they put on 87+ camaros just have somewhat smaller chambers and a little bigger valves. That would also sound right for honing because I think I got it done for about $20 a cylinder.
Are you also looking for after market cam and lifters?
Looks like the retainer plate holes were tapped. I was able to screw a bolt into it, they need cleaned out though. So I will have to get that as well.
And yes I will be looking for aftermarket cam and lifters. But I may get the ls7 lifters, seen a set for 100.00. Will need to find the spider plate and dog bones
I gues my only question at this point is to use the 193 heads since they are complete and ready to go, or ditch them and find something else. As noted before, not building a drag racer, just something with more punch than the tired 305 currently in it. If these heads are usuable with a say a lillte more agressive cam, i would rather use them for now instead of putting more money out for them. I can always replace them later on once I find a good HP head to use. Any thoughts on that?
I have a new Distributor 65,000 volt HEI vacum advance
So far parts needed are
Roller lifters - 100.00 esitmate
Roller cam - estimate 150.00
cam plate > appears i can all this for 100.00 new
spider splave and dogbones >
Timing chain and gears
Harmonic balancer, the one on it looks terrible
Timing cover
Intake - not sure what to get for the 193 heads - not sure
carb - figuring 300 if new
Block if ok and not needing bored
I have pistons .20 over but need cleaned, will need to see how or best way to do this.
rods - checked to ensure they are sound
crank - guessing I need to get it polished and balanced
will need
new cam bearings
rod and main bearings
oil pump
oil pan
fuel pump - recommendation - stock or electric?
Going to get all new bolts and fasteners for all components, but allready have new heads bolts still in the box, and motor mounts.
I believe I can use the starter and flywheel off my 305 but If I need a new one, I can do that as well.
I am good on tranny and rear, its a T5 5 speed and 373 limited slip rear
I will replace the clutch while its apart since I will be increasing the HP in the motor
Besides not getting a divorce from the wife, not sure what more I need
I will be moving all the accessories from the 305 to the new engine. I will clean and repaint everything down to block, all brackets and accessory pieces.
I will take pictures as I go, just got the the stuff to the garage. I am hoping to keep a before and after on all of it.
I would try looking for triangle head casting mark for heads. They used them stock on 87+ camaros and you will probably get more power out of them. I can't remember the exact casting number but they used them on boats as well.
Just looked up the casting number and it is 14102191. They have hardened valve seats that resist cracking. We found a pair for $250 at a swap meet ready to be put on.
14102191 are basically the same thing as 14102193. Fine for holding a door open. Not much good on a performance engine.
Hardened valve seats resist wear (which occurs without the lubricating properties of leaded fuel with unhardened valves & seats), has nothing to do with resistance to cracking. Both those head casting #s are prone to cracking if overheated.
I am kind of stuck at this moment. I have comments in two different directions. One mechanic here who I have talked to in the past said to just finish putting it together without doing any machine work and hope for the best,. He said its not worth doing anything to this block, since I only paid 200 for the block with all the internals already installed, its just not worth tearing apart and getting all the machine work done. Then I get well, to be safe, tear it apart, put the money in the machine work, and then start from there. I am on a budget and need to get a motor up and running, but I also do not want to waste a lot for an necessary work.
Also, a question someone maybe able to clear up for me. While doing research on parts and seeing what kind of pricing I am looking at. What decides what needs to be internally balance, versus external, and what is the difference.
Does internal balance mean for a specific setup versus external?
What decides what needs to be internally balance, versus external, and what is the difference.
Does internal balance mean for a specific setup versus external?
Only a 400 ci SBC is external balance
The '87+ 1 pce RMS engines have a weight on the flexplate but that does not change the balance arrangement
If everything about internal versus external balanced, I will need to have the shop check to ensure the rotating assembly I have is balanced before putting it back in. Since I do not have a harmonic balancer and flywheel for this engine, it should be done. I do not know if it was to start with. that assumption sound right?
just so you know a rebuild could have been done on this engine, he might not have cleaned the carbon off the pistons, rebuild could mean bearings gaskets, when you take the crank out, read the bottom of the bearing and see what the numbers are on them, std .010 that kind of thing, that will give you a little more insight on the rebuild, not nec when it was done but what might have been done, from the pics it looks pretty clean
if you look at the cylinder walls, do they have some cross hatch marks on them from like a stone hone or a ball hone, if so the rebuild is most likely resent
"This is new to me. Also looking for a set of roller lifters, guides, and spider plate"
I have these if you still need them. Pm me
Keith
I haven't pulled it apart yet. I wanted to see what others thought first. The cylinders do have the cross hatch type on the sides. I wiped them out and was thinking same thing before I started to tear it apart. Can the block still be tapped for rollers without puling apart, or should I just build it with standard and get it running. I have a few parts to buy if I go standard build
Trying to keep it reasonable, but also want to do it right
I am only looking to get 300 to 350 HP out of it,. The motor in the car is only 145 HP when fresh. so that would be a big upgrade. Not building a drag car or anything of that nature. I want a weekend driver and occasional drive it to work for the heck of it. Even though work is 110 miles round trip
I will be getting all the machine work done for free. Is this worth the trouble if the heads are not cracked? Or is there a better kit for less money I can get besides from Summit Racing. My son is a 3rd year Engineer major and has full access to a machine shop and has done numerous heads and blocks. He is going to take the block as well and go completely through it.
I also picked up a complete set of roller lifters, dog bones, and spider plate while getting these heads. All in all, I only 50.00 tied in all these. Figured it was a good deal. I hear a lot of good things about Vortec heads and thought I get a set. Now just hoping they are not crack, if they are, on to the next set of what ever I can find
My son is asking me all kinds of questions on what I want to do with the block and heads. He wanted to know if I wanted ZERO decking done on the block, from what I read, It would be great but for a street driver, is it really worth doing it. Honestly , he can do what ever he wants to it as long as its correct.
My question is as follows:
When do I need to start worrying about valves hitting the pistons? I read a lot on Valve lift and such and with Vortec heads, max is around .480 (stock) and with a little work on them, can go up to .550 easily. Going to try and keep CR at about 9.5 to 9.8 since I will be driving but only limited. I want to have that old day feel and sound from the early 70's. I loved sitting at red lights and having the car rock some what. Yeah, I am trying to revive my old days, I just want to have fun like I used to. I am not getting older, I am just getting old hehe.
But seriously, I do not want to have to worry about valves hitting pistons, I had that happen once and I will never live it down, my brother still talks about it. I do know what ever size piston I will need, be it what I have now .20 or get new ones for a bigger bore, they will be what is in it now, flat with valve reliefs
Just trying to get all my homework done so I can have an intelligent conversation with a (he knows it all) college engineer.
When your cam is big enough you have to change to longer stem valves and bigger springs, if you zero the deck you bring the valves closer, if you mill the heads you bring the valves closer to the pistons, if you don't need to zero the deck I wouldn't, just true it up and go with it, you can also order pistons to sit lower in the cylinder to help with clearance if you need it, I would mock up your engine, (personally I use clay or play-doe) I check valve clearance no matter what I build. I use the clay/play-doe so I can see what my clearance is, some use a dial indicator.
if your going with flat tops with 4 relief cuts then you could use a thicker head gasket if any block or head milling needs to be done. I would use an old head gasket to reference off of, then go from there.
Which is another reason to use that style of piston.Kind of the best of both worlds with SCR's.
The other thing is from yrs ago we used to call some builds "dogs". But we really didn't know why. This link is not for race only applications.It is real world applications on street driven vehicles and a smile per mile.
I gues my only question at this point is to use the 193 heads since they are complete and ready to go, or ditch them and find something else. As noted before, not building a drag racer, just something with more punch than the tired 305 currently in it. If these heads are usuable with a say a lillte more agressive cam, i would rather use them for now instead of putting more money out for them. I can always replace them later on once I find a good HP head to use. Any thoughts on that?
I have a new Distributor 65,000 volt HEI vacum advance
So far parts needed are
Roller lifters - 100.00 esitmate
Roller cam - estimate 150.00
cam plate > appears i can all this for 100.00 new
spider splave and dogbones >
Timing chain and gears
Harmonic balancer, the one on it looks terrible
Timing cover
Intake - not sure what to get for the 193 heads - not sure
carb - figuring 300 if new
Block if ok and not needing bored
I have pistons .20 over but need cleaned, will need to see how or best way to do this.
rods - checked to ensure they are sound
crank - guessing I need to get it polished and balanced
will need
new cam bearings
rod and main bearings
oil pump
oil pan
fuel pump - recommendation - stock or electric?
Going to get all new bolts and fasteners for all components, but allready have new heads bolts still in the box, and motor mounts.
I believe I can use the starter and flywheel off my 305 but If I need a new one, I can do that as well.
I am good on tranny and rear, its a T5 5 speed and 373 limited slip rear
I will replace the clutch while its apart since I will be increasing the HP in the motor
Besides not getting a divorce from the wife, not sure what more I need
I will be moving all the accessories from the 305 to the new engine. I will clean and repaint everything down to block, all brackets and accessory pieces.
I will take pictures as I go, just got the the stuff to the garage. I am hoping to keep a before and after on all of it.
NOw hoping the BLOCK is fine
as for the timing cover and balancer.you have to match them to one another .in regards to the timing tab location on the cover and the "0" mark on the balancer. a mismatch here and you wont be able to time your engine. just a heads up
I am kind of stuck at this moment. I have comments in two different directions. One mechanic here who I have talked to in the past said to just finish putting it together without doing any machine work and hope for the best,. He said its not worth doing anything to this block, since I only paid 200 for the block with all the internals already installed, its just not worth tearing apart and getting all the machine work done. Then I get well, to be safe, tear it apart, put the money in the machine work, and then start from there. I am on a budget and need to get a motor up and running, but I also do not want to waste a lot for an necessary work.
Also, a question someone maybe able to clear up for me. While doing research on parts and seeing what kind of pricing I am looking at. What decides what needs to be internally balance, versus external, and what is the difference.
Does internal balance mean for a specific setup versus external?
from experience ,I would go thru the block. you don't have to use the most expensive parts to make a nice street engine. personally ,if you can afford it.get rid of those dished pistons, get some cast flat tops.run standard issue iron rings. have the rods checked.replace the rod bolts too. going with a roller cam is a good idea.dont go all crazy with it or your practicality (fuel mileage) will suffer.the bottom line is attention to detail is what makes a long lived engine.dont skimp, check everything. now and it might not come apart later, kind of thinking
from experience ,I would go thru the block. you don't have to use the most expensive parts to make a nice street engine. personally ,if you can afford it.get rid of those dished pistons, get some cast flat tops.run standard issue iron rings. have the rods checked.replace the rod bolts too. going with a roller cam is a good idea.dont go all crazy with it or your practicality (fuel mileage) will suffer.the bottom line is attention to detail is what makes a long lived engine.dont skimp, check everything. now and it might not come apart later, kind of thinking
You would be well served by reading the links I left.
From your pictures, it's already been drilled, tapped, and machined for the roller lifters/cam.
The holes are there on the top, but not tapped out. I believe the two that needs tapped on the front for the cam plate is done. Not sure if the PO did it or it came that way
Looks like I might be getting a complete 350 from a 1990 Blazer that currently runs. I am going to go look at it today. Anything I should be concerned with?
350 from a 1990 Blazer... Anything I should be concerned with?
The crap (191/193) heads and lack of roller cam apparatus
Basically it's a duplicate of what you already have. Not a single piece is any better than what you started out with.
I agree w 1Gary's piston selection, BTW; a small "D cup" piston, zero deck, and a .039" head gasket, gives you about the best combo possible for a moderate-compression street engine. Reason for the "D cup" is it approximately mirrors the chamber, meaning the entire chamber is all in one place, nothing all spread out all over a big flat area. Think, trying to set a sheet of paper on fire laid out flat, compared to crumpled up in a ball. This kind of thing is why one motor will run a second faster than a motor built from the identical same parts list, but lacking in attention to detail.
"Attention to detail": the secret to winning. Of course there is always the need to understand which details matter, otherwise you end up in "measure with micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with axe" hell; or the inverse, "measure with GPS, mark with spray paint, cut with laser". In this case though, shaping the chamber ideally, getting ideal quench, actually have your compression come out IN REALITY to the same thing you "calculate", having all 8 cylinders the same volume, etc. are all benefits you get from zero-decking the block and choosing the correct pistons.
I guess the price is right, nothing, for the motor. I still have the other stuff as well. Since I am concerned with the block I currently have, felt it may be better to get a complete, running motor, and start from there. At this point, I have nothing really invested yet. The vortec heads I picked up are in the machine shop getting cleaned and checked. If they are ok, that will be the start of the top end. I already have the roller lifters, spider plate. Since the first block was never tapped out, maybe get luck on the running motor. Also hoping since its a heavy duty truck, it has a 4 bolt main instead of the 2bolt I have. My understanding is the motor has never been pulled so everything should be stock from factory. Another bonus, in mind anyway, if it needs bored, I can go with what I want. I will know more in a little bit. Heading out to look at it now.
I have buy a speedboat in the Netherlands, Amsterdam with this motor init is there anybody how can tell me when is this motor become in this boat. The boot is a Renken CC from 1998 or is the car were the motor was init transported to the Netherlands and which year was that.
I have buy a speedboat in the Netherlands, Amsterdam with this motor init is there anybody how can tell me when is this motor become in this boat. The boot is a Renken CC from 1998.
No way to know what vehicle any of the parts came out of, except that it might be possible to tell the origin of the block (THE BLOCK and THE BLOCK ONLY, not the "engine") by looking at the stamping codes.
However since ANYbody can take ANY heads from ANY Chevy small block V8 and stick them on ANY block from ANY year of ANY vehicle that such an engine has ever been installed in from 1955 to 2000, and ANYbody can also buy ANY cam and ANY pistons and ANY of a large number of other parts and also install them into ANY block, there's NO WAY to guess what you've got, other than, it's a 4" bore block (originally a 350). All we can tell beyond that from the photos, is that the heads are 86 - 95 (NOT Vortec), and everything on top of the block has been spoooged with the 70s engine color spray paint; anybody that would do THAT, there's no telling what they might have stuck together. Looking at how they did the wiring, that person was CLEARLY nothing but a HACK.
The block is the correct color to be a Mercruiser engine originally; could possibly be original to the boat. Everything else on top of that has been monkeyed with and therefore could be just about ANYthing, as detailed above; and probably is. The carb looks like it's sitting at the correct angle though (level, where a car intake would tilt it down toward the front) so the intake might be original to the boat as well. The carb looks to have a manual choke, and so is DEFINITELY NOT original to the boat. It's a car carb, not a marine one, and as such, would not be legal (or sensible) to install onto a boat in the US because of the danger of fires and explosions. That needs to BE FIXED before the next time that thing goes into the water. Looks like it has the seawater cooling system on it, so it's only suitable for use in fresh water, NOT salt. I see the block-mounted fuel pump, but no lines on it; I'd be afraid to even guess what kind of a hack job the fuel system is, except that it's CLEARLY a life-threatening danger like the whole rest of the fuel system.
Get the head casting numbers, any numbers off the cam and pistons (or even photos of the pistons), and any other identifying marks you can find. While it's almost 100% CERTAIN that the engine didn't come to the boat intact (i.e. most likely somebody didn't just pull it out of a {fill in the blank} and drop it in the boat) but rather has probably been "rebuilt" to some extent, that's the best you can do.
If you can't or don't want to do that, then, it simply is what it is, and you just have what you have, and it doesn't too much matter. Knowing what it is won't change what it is.
But by all means get rid of that air cleaner and put a boat carb and a flame arrestor on it. And GET RID OF THAT RUBBER FUEL LINE AT THE CARB!!!! All that stuff is just a DEATH TRAP like it is. That's a really HORRIBLE job of installing a motor into a boat.
04-27-2014, 07:37 PM
