330hp_91RS

My dad had this idea while I was at home, and we did it.

If you take an air cutter (body shop tool) and drill four holes, one on each corner, you can cut out a perfect square above the fuel pump in our cars.

Then simply weld a couple small metal ears onto the cut out piece. That way you can drill a couple holes thru the ears so that you can screw the cut out piece down to the surrounding metal.

I think it is an awesome idea. This way if you ever have fuel pump problems, you don't have to take 6-8 hours or whatever to get the tank out. You can just lift up the rear carpet take out 4-8 screws and the pump is right there.

I bet someone else has had this idea. Let me know what you guys think. As of right now I do not have pics.

jon_volk

or you can make it really neat and use a bolt in aluminum access door like this....

http://www.competitionengineering.co...?CatCode=10071

deadbird

So did you just chop through the hard lines as well for this ?
I know on my bird, the lines from the sender run all the way to the junction on the drivers frame rail so it would seem you'd have to hack through the 4 hard lines.
I don't think I'd (personally) be awful comfortable with splicing the lines back together but hey, if it works I guess, why not ?
I do know the idea has been addressed a few times in the past though.

Stekman

Yea, im curious too about this as i have to take my pump out. LIke what size cutter did you use and exactly where did you cut? how big is you hole?

pics please

ede

i wouldn't care how quick, easy, or neat it is with or without a door, patch panel or bracing it's still a hack job and not the way to do it.

wesilva

iTrader: (35)

The idea has been introduced in previous threads. I not quite sure how I feel about it...seems alright if it's clean and finished...perhaps with the access door. These unit bodys are stressed as it is...enough to where hard launches can tear sail panels on T-top equipped cars and all sorts of other nightmares. Is there a possibility of creating an area where stress could begin to tear the chassis by doing this....possibly weakening the chassis? Just thinkin' out loud.

I have already dropped my tank. I put in an early third gen carbed pick-up. I have a carb now but when I go back to FI in the future, I will use an external fuel pump and never drop the tank again anyway.

MrDude_1

me and a couple friends had the tank dropped and out in about 45 mins.... and we wernt working fast at all.... that counts rolling it out, jacking, beer, and all...


its not as big of a issue people want to complain that it is.

besides... how often do you change your fuel pump?

heres a better access door... make one in your fenders to change the spark plugs.... stupid? yes. but it would be a hell of alot more useful.

PhilM

well for everyone who has bad commentary on this idea, my advice is go to an NHRA sportsman or national meet and check out the F-body stockers. this is a very common thing to do, saves a lot of time if you need to swap a pump during a race. so if it is done correctly (access door), it is well worth it. true, might not be worth it for a street car, but it still can be done correctly and be effective.

wesilva

iTrader: (35)

I wasn't trying to be negative, just wondering what the consequences were since I have never actually seen it done. Would this weaken the chassis...I really don't know. Do the NHRA cars have a roll cage to strengthen the chassis prior to cutting the hole? Would subframe connectors strengthen the chassis enough to render this modification safe? These are concerns I would have to address before I personally would do this.

45 minutes?!?! Damn, Mr. Dude...takes me that long just to prep...gather tools...put the beer on ice..etc.

MrDude_1

well, technicly.... the beer was already cold.. so we could skip the ice part.

PhilM

yes on the stocker roll bar question, most run a minimum 6 pt bar...

ede

phil how would you know if the nhra cars do or not with out removing the carpet, since by the rules they're required to run full factory carpeting and padding?

PhilM

for many cars I have seen, the access door rests on top of the carpeting. other guys put it under the carpet. if it is done right, no tech person is going to give a driver a hard time. all the cars I have ever seen used an aftermarket fuel door. I am not lying guys, you can go to a race and see for yourself. I also did NHRA tech for many years and have seen this stuff at my own track. if it is done correctly (properly sealed), there is nothing wrong with it...in a race car.

1991tealRSt-topGuy

thats an extremely half assed way of doing it

i just replaced my intank pump and it was VERY easy as long as you drop the rear and drain the tank

took me maybe 3 hours from start to finish

and whats all the talk about bending the neck? rubbish!

f-crazy

iTrader: (-1)

What about those guys who live in NY, dont have a parking space (park on the street), had the catback welded to the N10 becasue the flange broke, and dont have the 300 bucks to pay somone to do it, ohhh did i mention parked on the street?

i cut a hole in mine but welded the hole back up...now that i dont have that exhaust problem anymore ill drop the tank next time...

1991tealRSt-topGuy

all i can say to that is:

its YOUR workmanship and YOUR car being judged by those who will choose to

if you must, do it that way, but i frown upon half assed work

sqzbox

I did it to my 88 form. 2hrs 45min. I used an angle grinder so I wouldn't drill into the tank or lines. The pump is centered directly in the center of the hump about an inch below the sheet metal. I cut the lines by hand with a hack saw blade W/duct tape and used rubber fuel line and clamps to reconnect. I cleaned the area around the gasket with a vacuum and a small screw driver so I wouldn't get dirt in the tank and get a good seal around the locking ring. Putting a little vaseline on the gasket makes it go together a lot easier.
total cost was about $50 bucks from napa.

Stekman

i still would like to see a pic from someone who as actually performed this.

330hp_91RS

That is just about what I did, I cut out a 10x10 ( approx) square but with an air chisel to not make sparks. Then we cut the hard lines and re-linked them with rubber line. Then we welded ears on to the square 6 or 8 of them, so that it sits flush.

Soon the whole chassis flex prob and all that will not be a prob. I'm gonna get a cage and triangular SFC's.

For all of you who say this is a hack job, tell me how it is one. From now on, I have an invisible acces door to my fuel pump that is under the carpet that will bring the removal and installation time for another pump to about 25 mins.
Can anyone here remove and installe a tank in 25 mins.???

I could car less what it looks like cause it's under the carpet, and no one is ever going to see it. I care ubout functionality on things that are otherwise invisible.

So keep on dropping your tank if you ever have a pump problem and let me know how it goes. I can rest assured that if my new Holley pump takes a crap on me, it'ss take me 25 mins. to fix it.

MarkB

ill tell you how its a hack job...you hacked off a part of the car that DIDNT need to be.

and,btw i can do a pump in 25-30 minutes IT AINT HARD,and i dont have to cut the **** out of my car to do so. im ashamed of all you people taking shortcuts,when doing the job the RIGHT way is LESS difficult.

let me ask you this,if you took your car to a mechanics shop,and you needed a fuel pump,would you not be PISSED if the guy took your "shortcut" and cut a huge hole in your car so he wouldnt have to drop the tank? personally ,owning my own Auto shop i know id NEVER do that to anyones car,or my personal cars for that matter...."do it right the first time"

wesilva

iTrader: (35)

Mark B, Sqzebox, 1991teal, and MrDude, unbutton your shirt. Do you see a great big "S" burned into your chest? Geez, that tank job took me 6 hours easily. Granted my wife's stupid poodle was trying to hump my leg for a while (we don't have that dog anymore...had an unfortunate mysterious accident with the only clues being a big honkin' Pirelli tread across it's backside), it still would've been a pain. My exhaust was welded in...had to cut that out. My siphon hose was so cold, it wouldn't bend to get those last 3 gallons of gas...that sucked. Getting the carpet up entailed practically disassembling the whole rear hatch area (did get the opportunity to replace my rear speakers and put in new hatch struts). I didn't feel real comfortable with my choice for mounting my jack stands and I still don't know where the best place to mount them where the arc of the hydraulic jack doesn't tip them over. I just abandoned them and used a piece of huge I-beam I keep around the house for such occasions. Point is, that job was a royal pain. I can see the wicked allure of the hack job being attractive. Like I said before, the ultimate solution for me was put in the carb pickup and purchase one of those great Aeromotive external pumps like the AEI-11101 and never have to deal with ANY of that internal tank headache ever again!

1991tealRSt-topGuy

and IMHO, the job was exetremly easy compared to what i was expecting after reading posts like this

different strokes for different folks, but a hack job is a hack job no matter how you slice it or what your excuse is, because there is always a "proper" way to do something

welded on exhaust: i would have pulled out my wizz wheel and went and got some cheap exhaust hangers from pep boys for $5

1991tealRSt-topGuy

and just to make a side note:

i did have a garage to do this in, BUT it is not heated and i had to leave the door open because of the gas vapors

also this was about 3 weeks ago in the dead of the cold

bnoon

You think that someone trying to save a little time by hacking the metal away instead of dropping the tank is going to take the time to snap pics? You would loose all of the time you're saving right there, LOL!

Seriously, this has to be one of the easiest cars to drop a tank on from a hidden spot like this. True, it's not as easy as most cars where nothing hides the tank, but it is still just to easy to not do the right way and go about hacking up a car to save an hour or so of time. Drop the tank.

330hp_91RS

Man, you guys are too cool for me, way to much testosterone here.

What defines a hack job??? What about tearing up the whole rear area to tub a car, is that a shortcut for traction.

You guys are being very close minded and rediculous.

There are many 'right ways' to do a single task.

"Do it right the first time." - What about the second or third time??? What if I need to upgrade the pump later??? Drop the tank again? F that.

WTF- is this crap about shortcuts???? I would call it innovation and efficiency rather than a shorcut. I would love for someone to really explain to me how this is a hack job. In detail.

If you want to see what it looks like, I'll have to post a pic of the carpet for you, since it's not noticable at all.

You guys are being lame, and won't agree when someone does something different that it is actually a good idea because you did it differently and are pissed that it took you all that time to do it.

Don't bother me with anymore of your 'hackjob" posts. I was just trying to help you guys out and maybe spread some new knowledge on a more efficient idea. Excuse ME.

wesilva

iTrader: (35)

Wow!! Another volcanoe goes off in the Hawiian Islands! It's all good...if I got mad for every time someone on this site shot me down...I'd need therapy. Glad the hatch worked out for you.

Testosterone, gold chains, ******s, third gen camaros...all synonymous!

omcrider

This is always such an interesting discussion. One which I have thought quite a bit about while I am waiting for my pump to fail. To address a couple issues first being the comment about inhibiting structural integrity. Typically cutting a hole in the center of a box will not decrease the strength. Although our cars are Unibody they are still stamped with certain areas acting like the frame or box. A hole in the big flat sheet metal area in your trunk is not a major reason for concern. Besides nobody is leaving a hole there it is either re-welded or bolted back in which gives what minor strength lost right back.

It is not a hack job if performed properly. A hack job refers to something done out of idiocy and lack of knowledge for how to do it properly and looks like azz when it is completed. Now some of you might say that description fits because the proper way to do it is drop the tank but that would be a biased opinion and one that if any of you has modded your car at all to ad something to it that wasn't there from the factory then its a hack job.

Cars are often modded to make them better than stock. Sometimes we ad things, sometimes we delete things, sometimes these things take cutting and welding or other forms of fabrication. I think we would all agree on that. There will be no structural loss to the sheet metal if sealed back up properly. So what is the real issue here when you break it down to those basic thoughts. I am sure there are ways to hack this job up just as there are ways to do it cleanly.

I also think wesilva's experience is closer to a reality of what your average backyard mechanic can expect to endure to do it the "proper" way. Those of you who say you have done this in under an hour, *** bless you wish I had you around here to help me out. Any job I do always seems to take twice as long as I expected when you run into that fuel line that won't come loose or the bolt some other idiot already stripped, you get the idea.

PS: I am still undecided how I will tackle this job when it comes my turn to replace a bad pump. On one hand I would probably to it the traditional way of dropping the tank, but man would I be PO'd if the pump I put in had a problem and I had to do it over again.

1991tealRSt-topGuy

well, when you put the tank back up, put 2 gallons in it and make sure it works....simple as that

4mul8r

Me and my friend attempted this last year with one of my Formulas. We cut a small hole in the center of the hatch area, but we couldn't pull the thing(sorry I'm not being too technical at all here) up far enough to get out of the tank because the fuel lines were too hard. We were stumped and decided that we'd need to cut the fuel lines and then reconnect them with rubber hoses afterwards. I wasn't too happy about it because from what me and him had originally assumed, you didn't have to do that. We were just about to do it, when my friend found out the solution. The power plug to the fuel pump underneath the car had somehow become disconnected. He plugged it back in and the car fired right up. I was sooo happy.

I am going to be putting in a disc rear end in the spring. I have already decided that while I'm doing that I am going to do a new fuel pump regardless of the pump's condition/operating status while I'm under there anyways, just so that I won't have to bother with it later down the road when it'd be a bigger pain in the ***. I'll also be putting in a new muffler as well at the same time. All my mods are going to be strategically done to corridinate witheachother like that.

TechSmurf

I'm working up an access door for mine currently, though it's going to be interesting thanks to the previous owner who cut this out in the first place.. it's ugly =\

I'm thinking hinged 1/8" aluminum plate, personally.. though I'm not sure what I'm going to do for fasteners.. self-ejecting dsuz fasteners would be nice if I can find them locally =)

If anyone wants pictures of what this job looks like when done *wrong* (as a motivation to do it right?) I can snap a few... though I'd really prefer not to show off the shoddy caliber of craftsmanship that was put into this originally...

bnoon

http://www.colemanracing.com/prodex/...?cat=FASTENERS has the fasteners you need. Cheap too.

sqzbox

Yes I would be pissed! BUT, If he called me and said he could do the job for $50 bucks instead of $350 or more and I would have an access door for the future, I believe I would. I can think of a whole lot of better things to do with $300 bucks than pay someone else to do my dirty work when I can do it myself.
Sounds like your pissed because your missing out on another quick, high dollar job that some rich, ignorant, "I don't wana get my hands dirty" Yuppie pays you to do. Can't blame you for that pal, It's your job! My daughter's comming up from Tenn. on the 22nd and I'll have her take a pic with her digital and send you a pic of a pro looking job. You might change your mind about what you call a "hack job" . KEWL? BTW, two weeks prior to the pump problem I just installed a new rear end that took me 3 mo. to find. Talk about depression, dispair, and total agony!
I realize I could have dropped the tank for the same price, but I wasn't going to let the BEOTCH get the best of me!

rjmcgee

Work smarter not harder.

f-crazy

iTrader: (-1)

no dubt guys, its really common sense...you make a strait clean cut and itll go back down that way...peen out an edge and weld it back together...pull back the carpet and your golden..

the lines have to be cut like posted but rubber hose and clamps are cheap....


The reason i did was becasue i didnt have a choice...i believe in doing **** myself as do most of you....

when i put a cat back on my car the guy welded it to the N10 flange...well that peice broke so a sleeve had to be welded over it....Like i said i didnt have the 350 bucks for somone do it (it was more becasue the exhaust had to be cut/welded)so i was up ***** creek without a paddle...

so my buddy and i cut'er up and repaired it


obviously if you lift up the carpet you can see were it was cut, but point is, if its done right, itll save ya time and wont have any ill effects on anyhting

stevedave454

if i took my car to a local repair shop and they cut it i would be pissed, but if i was modding my car (meaning more for a race car, than a daily driver) then i'd be fine with it. you guys say its a hack job just because they CUT it out.... well i have seen thousands of show quality race cars with roll cages, fuel cells, mounts for gauges, etc... you gotta cut up lotsa s**t for all that! and like someone said above the whole thing with tubbing a car, or putting in a 4-link.... technically you can drop the engine and everything from the bottom of many cars, but you dont have to because they have hoods for easy access... its all about how much your gonna be getting into it... if its a daily driver and you only need to replace the pump every 10 years or so dont do it, if its more of a race car and you need to upgrade/replace a lot more often then its a good idea IMO

4mul8r

One thing I forgot to mention when I did mine.

I was so excited to have it back running that I didn't put the rear carpet back in when I took the car out for a spin. While driving, my girlfriend said she wa feeling sick, and I thought it was because of my driving, so I toned it down some...but she still felt nauseish (sp???). I paid it no mind, but the next time I had her in the car I had the rear carpet back in and she didn't feel sick.

So maybe there was some fumes or vapors seeping through the cut in the hatch that the carpet wasn't there to catch???? Just something to think about.

sqzbox

Maybe we should weld the hoods shut and do everything from underneath! Imagine, no more bending over "either way"

383backinblack

thats called making things easier for yourself, if you do it so that it seals itself, an is neat and clean its a great idea........dropping the tank just to pull that sending unit out is about 15 degrees of retarded.

they should have put a door to get at it in the first place

TechSmurf

Seriously. I nearly cried when I was helping a friend of mine with a fuel pump on a CRX when he pulled up his carpet to reveal the stock access panel.

br()bert

Alot of cars have access panels to get to fuel pumps. Too bad gm isnt one of the makers.jackasses! And for every one person saying its a hack job theirs 10 people who have cut out a panel and done the fp in half the time it would normally take....

Drop all that **** just to change a pump!? hell NO!

330hp_91RS

Thank you, some of you share my opinion. Thank G O D. I was beginning to wonder about this board....

jon_volk

i still think its a good ideal. I previously had a 2001 toyota mr2 spyder that i turbocharged. When i upgraded the fuel pump theres a nice little removeable panel that gives access to the fuel pump. Its a hell of alot easier than dropping the tank.

Just because the car doesnt have one from the factory doesnt mean it shouldnt. Seriously, for all the crap that you need to go through to repair relatively common simple things....you realize that the people that design how these cars are put together have never turned a wrench on one in their life. Take most older european sports cars. You cant drop the transmission out of the car without taking the engine out. Gee, that must mean removable crossmembers make it a hack job



ignorance is bliss

DANIELEK

I have done that to my car and i have replaced two fuel pumps already. It is easy one you have the access door there.

I have to do it one more time because my fuel sending unit is fried and i have to replace it this spring.

laiky

I went through this while doing my fuel injection conversion. I determined that it would be a big waste of time to attempt this in my gararge by myself. So idecided to cut to the chase and do what GM should have done in the first place. I have attached a picture, i do not feel that this is a hack job or butchery just a modification to save time and aggrevation in the future. I f i had to do it a gain i would have cut past the down slope at the front of the deck. It would have made moving the lines much easier.

DANIELEK

My hole is a little bit smaller but it works..... :hail: :lala:

330hp_91RS

Yeah, mine is also smaller. You have a nice clean cut there.

Love the color coded gas lines!!! LOL!!!! Whatever keeps it coordinated right! I just cut mine closer to the pump at an angle so it is obvious which is which.

pasky

I don't find this to be a hack job, sounds like a good ole' mod to me. I don't understand, you say anything that requires cutting or whatever is a hack? Well I had to open my transmission tunnel about two inches so I can fit my T-56 in, is that a hack? I really don't think this one is a hack job, its a nice idea if done professionally, have a nice trap door in the back.

laiky

when i made the hole, i didn't know how big it had to be. I was concerened with making it neat and not hitting the gastank or lines. If i had to do it again i would cut less toward the rear and more toward the front. I did have to loosen the tank to swap the lines, but i was retrofitting a fuel injection pickup assy. My car is an 84 that was of course carburated. My car is a daily driver (my only car) and i am obsessed with being able to easily repair any upgrades i make. If anybody does make this cut you must be sure to NOT cut past the thickness of the metal. the lines and tank are very close to the deck.

MdFormula350

HACKHACK


whatever floats ur boat to fix it :lala:

laiky

in this case, my boat is quite boyant, thank you!