ok, im looking at gettign a welder to mostly install my 8 pt roll bar but also to just kinda **** aorund with other stuff, my question is, should i go by a el cheapo version of a mig or tig or just spend a good amount of money on a decent MIG, there are some el cheapo TIG wleders on ebay i was looking at getting, like this one, http://cgi.ebay.com/160-TIG-WELDER-A...em170063424387 , i alos have a question on that, do you use an arc welder and convert it to tig with that or do you just need a 220 v outlet to run it?

 

spend ur money on a good quality tig welder

 

that awnser is the same as if i asked you what would be a better winter beater, a nice econo-box or a kinda old 4x4 truck, and you tell me to go buy a brand new duramax desiel

 

you can't use a cheap welder to weld up a cage, the tubing is too thick and the duty cycles on those things suck. the guy who welded up my cage could do yours for a pretty decent price I think. Assuming there is no cutting/notching of the tubes needed. I spent 18 hours on my cage for cutting and notching since I didn't have the proper tools to notch or cut like a full fab shop would have and welding it in.

 

If you get a nice welder up front, you'll have one that last forever and can do anything that you might want to do. Parts will be readly available for it and IMO you'll just be better off. Look at WWW.Cyberweld.com they tend to have the best deals, no shipping charges, and usually no sales tax.

Just my 2c.

 

Alot of your choice also depends on how good of a welder you already are. A good welding machine can make an average welder seem good. On the other hand if you are not an experienced welder, and are using a cheap weld machine things can get ugly quick. FYIY, if you are not sure of your welding skills, have someone else do the finish welding on it. The money is well spent in the event that cage actually has to be of use sometime.

 

im an OK welder, im pretty sure im just going to go buy a decent lincoln mig welder or somehitng along those lines

 

you need the 220V one to weld roll cage tubing typically or else the duty cycle won't keep up and the welds will turn to crap after a while because the machine gets hot.

 

The tubing on a roll bar is only 1/8" thickness isn't it? Just about any welder out there will do it. A roll cage must be Mig or TIG welded to be legal, IIRC, just so you don't try to use gas or stick.

A basic 120V lincoln wire feed setup is about $400 and should do the job. I think it's rated at 3/16" in a single pass. 10% duty cycle will just mean you have to wait for it to cool down. For this type of stuff i'd guess you'll be spending the time lining stuff up, grinding, realigning etc, such that you probably wont even hit your thermal overload anyway.

That company has a TIG/STICK/PLASMA machine too, sounds like the perfect setup for me, buy it now is at $500 ish dollars. Sounds too good to be true, anyone ever heard of "smiley tools"? I'm guessing its some offshore thing, but if it works...?

 

1/8" thickness is the maximum thickness for most 110v welders. 220V welders will do 1/4" typically.

I'd stick to name brand ones over overseas junk Sonix

 

Duty cycle is based on a 10 minute time frame. At 10% you can weld for 1 minute then need to let the machine cool for 9 minutes (left running with the fan(s) on). Then weld for another minute, cool for 9 minutes, and so on.

RBob.

 

Stick to a name brand welder. And make sure that you get one that uses mig gas. I've got a 110v Miller, and love it. Unless your going to do some kind of production welding, you do not need a 220v welder. Another really nice thing about the 110v welder is that you don't have to bring your work to the welder running off of a dedicated 220v plug. You can plug it in anywhere, and weld.

 

Here is a quality unit that has had great reviews from a lot of experts....It can be found for less that $600 right now.....it is small enough to be taken to a friends house but yet it is a solid performer...
Good luck,
Mike
http://www.hobartwelders.com/products/handler187.html

 

miller, among others, make some high quality tig machines the size of a lunch box that are 110v. they work great and you won't out work the duty cycle. they don't have foot controls like some people are use to. if i were wanting to do tig welding in my garage i'd buy a ac/dc stick machine and then spend a little extra on a tig torch and argon bottle. in fact that's what i did and have in the garage now.

 

That's exactly what I was planning on doing. Does the stick machine have to be a stick/TIG unit, or can any stick unit be upgraded to TIG, by just swapping the stinger to a TIG gun, and adding a bottle or gas?

 

To use a stick box with TIG, no need for a special unit. I have been doing the same for some time now. That is using an AC/DC stick box with a torch and bottle. The down side is lack of a hi-frequency unit and lack of thumb or foot current control.

Without the hi-freq unit the TIG needs to be scratch started. I use a piece of copper clamped next to the weld area. Scratch start it on the copper. Hi-freq is also required for TIG welding aluminum.

Then to stop welding need to break the arc and quickly get the torch back over the weld area. This is to keep the shield gas over the metal until it cools off. Otherwise it oxidizes. Of course because everything is hot, the arc tends to light back off, I hate that

RBob.

 

wait, I thought DC was needed to weld AL... high-freq is also? (needed, or preferred?)

Interesting, now theres an alternative

 

Aluminum is typically done with AC. With that the arc goes out and needs to restart at every crossover. The hi-freq unit keeps the arc going. The reason for the AC is to agitate the pool.

RBob.

 

I got a wire feed from Harbor Freight and it works wonders (I'm an avg welder) they have the capability to use flux core or wire/gas. It cost me $129 on sale. The duty cycle is 10% only on the high setting, constant on the low setting (for sheet metal). I've welded 3/16" in a single pass when I first got the machine on a riding mower deck and couldn't break the welds when I beat on them like a maniac.
.
However, I personnaly would not use it to weld a cage. Like mentioned earlier - your life could depend on it.

 

If anybody wants good advice on welding i suggest you go to millermotorsports.com and post on the ask andy forum. They are real pros and very helpful. Not to knock anybody here but most guys aren't professionals and will give you conflicting advice. Also note that although they might generally prefer Miller equipment if someone else makes something better they have no problem saying so. I highly reccomend the board.

 

I am pretty sure that Lincoln Electric has the same thing on their site. I know that was where I got a ton of information about welding cast iron.

 

Im a hobby/Ok welder.My Hobart 135 is both flux/gas mig unit.It works great & not too expensive for a weekend welder type.

 

here's mine http://www.htpweld.com/products/mig_...s/mig_140.html
It's the best 120 volt welder you can buy and will do 1/4" easy. Made by HTP of America(High Temperature Products) Had it for 14 years now and I don't know why it's still working. Costs a little more but you will own it forever.

 

How about this stuff? Not for steel, but seems to work good on aluminum...
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/fabrication/404512-has-anyone-used-hts.html

 

i bought one of those cheap *** "MIG" welders off ebay, they are total junk!
not worth the price of shipping!

heres what im looking at getting (i know its still not great but at the moment it fits my budget.) http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=91811

 

That unit is virtually useless as a TIG welder. I has no pedal to adjust current and i suspect no high frequency start so its only lift arc. "SAVING" money by buying that junk is just throwing it away. Do you need a TIG? I would look at the new Lincoln 140/180 migs or the comparable millers. I f you NEED a TIG i would shop around for a good used one, if you go with a name brand you can get a good deal, the transformer machines are rocks and as reliable.

 

When it comes to welding machines it is all about how good your welding technique is if you are trying to cheap-out on the machine. If you can weld good then you can work around a poor performing machine. Newbies are better off with a brand name welder.

I ended up with a Lincoln when I wanted to learn how to TIG weld? Why? because I knew I was going to need a half decent machine to make up for my poor TIG skills (learning on the web and just practicing). It would also pay for itself after a few aluminum welding projects. I went with a good old transformer model because there are less parts to break / burn-out / wear-out than an inverter model. Yeah, the inverter tech. is nice for size but not as reliable due to the caps and circuit boards. Although, it could take a 100 years to wear it out. So the reliability may be a null point.

As for the HarborFreight TIG machine posted. I have never tried one, but the product manual shows it to have adjustable current, a gas valve on the torch. Yeah, no variable pedal for the current. No HF start. That all means a strike arc and some finesse with the torch to get the weld right.....not easy for a beginner. The cool thing is that it is dirt cheap and an inverter model. The electronics are probably cheap inside, but if things broke you could probably pick them up from an electronics supply house. At worst, loose about $300 and that isn't jack when it comes to a TIG welding machine. One alum. weld job would cover the cost of it. Using a machine like that would make you a better at TIG welding than a high-end machine. Heck, if it didn't work out you could always return it and only lose shipping cost which is probably less than $100. And that could be considered a small price to pay for learning to TIG weld.


EDIT: You can also turn this into a TIG welding machine. http://www.jeepsunlimited.com/forums...d.php?t=564530
Note the guy welding does it with sandals on. Also, note that you are playing with enough voltage and current to seriously harm yourself or others.

 

another note on the HF machine, if it does A/C which is needed for alluminum, it will be virtually useless on alluminum without a pedal and HF start.

 

Good point. I didn't notice it only does DC before. No aluminum welding for that Harbor Freight unit.

 

Just remember you get what you pay for even though you might be able to save some money on the el cheapo in the long run you are better off with a quality product like miller,hobart or a linclon, parts will be available from any welding supply and there is good customer support.

 

OK, the basic answer to the question:

Get a decent, small MIG and you’ll be fine. The good 110V welders would be enough, and when asked I usually point people at the Hobart handler, and tell them to stay away from the smaller Lincoln SP and weldpack welders (been unhappy with their construction/wire feed), and that the similar miller is not worth the extra money (the bells and whistles added don’t give you any extra capability, but do make it more confusing to setup). BUT Lincoln just released a new series of small welders that looks REALLY nice, so I’d look at those also (probably first the way the market looks right now). You should be able to get setup with one of those for $5-800 (welder + shielding gas + wire/consumables + gloves/helmet…)

If you need to save another $100 or so the Clarke welders seem to be pretty decent, as are some of the larger harbor freight welders (the smaller ones are really light duty, and I’d stay away from them), but I’d only suggest going this way (especially with the harbor freight stuff) if that $100 or so will make or brake the deal, the nicer ones are easily that much nicer (may not be 100% the case with the Clarke welders, seems like every time I touch a newer one it’s closer to a new, big name brand one).

Don’t let anyone BS you into thinking that these won’t work for “real work.” There are plenty of fab shops that live on these things, and things like their typical 3/16” capacity is “single pass, straight stringer” capacity.

You can weld MUCH heavier stuff with multiple passes or weaves and proper prep. For an example, here’s a >1/2” casting (it gets thicker and thinner in places) that I welded to a 5/16” thick steel flange with an Lincoln SP130 (yes, one of the welders I recommend against) using _flux core_ and a weave to get proper penetration and fill:

(for anyone that doubts the quality of that, it’s been in use as well as the rest of the pieced together exhaust manifolds on it in a daily driver for 4 years now with no issues at all).

Oh, and don’t worry about duty cycle… I’ve have never run into it on a decent 110V welder, even welding up heavy weaves on ¾” steel plate or heavy castings, and most of the time you weld a few inches, stop, setup, tack, tack, tack, weld a few inches… so it’s not like you see 100% DC on any normal welding job

As a matter of fact, I don’t know of a fab shop that uses anything else (well, occasionally the 220V version of the same welder) for installing cages… unless you get into the really high end stuff with 4130 that requires tig welding. MIG is just 3-5x faster, can look almost as nice in the right hands and a small MIG is much less of a hassle to drag around then something like a MM251 (as much as I’d like one). I’ve done half a dozen roll bars/cages now with an assortment of 110v welders, and all of the local fab shops that I know of doing cages for slower then 8.49 cars use the same, as well as all but 2 nascar teams.

FWIW, here’s a guy doing a really nice job with a 110V Miller welding quite a few things that most people say you can’t do with a 110V machine:
http://www.shopfloortalk.com/forums/...ead.php?t=8308

OTOH, The really small 110V welders like the one that HF usually prices at 199 or 189 and you can sometimes find on sale for $129… well they’re good enough for tacking stuff together but not really for serious work, especially if you don’t have some experience. My brother has one and I’ve yet to see him put down a decent bead on anything, he can get tack welds on thin stuff but he can’t even get it to stick on say 3/16” plate. I played with it a bit and found that I liked running it wide open welding on just about everything if I was going to lay down anything resembling a hot bead, but found that I still had some issues, mostly that the tiny drive rollers put a bend in the wire and the gun did not support it enough so no matter what you did the wire did not come out of the gun straight which made the puddle hard to control. I also found that it’s not as efficient as the larger 110V welders and wide open I was popping breakers just like you would wide open on one of the bigger welders but the bigger 110V welders are probably putting 30A more heat into the welds.

Don’t even worry about a TIG till you’ve got a good, reliable MIG and half a dozen other things, it’s just not that important.

FWIW, I do quite a bit of fabrication/welding and have my little Hobart hander 135 (workhorse, I’ve fed enough wire through the thing that I’ve worn out parts that don’t wear out, I love that little box), my Miller Synchrowave (think 300# TIG welder, somewhat bigger then the big dorm fridges), and HTP plasma cutter…
big welder cart

 

Thanks crossfire, you always have good information! I have one of the Harbor Freight MIG's (as I said) and have been able to make strong welds with it. Like you said, I keep the feed as fast as it will go, lol. The one I got has two settings and on low I am able to weld exhaust continuously without worrying about duty cycle (like you said, don't see 9mins at a time very often), however have on the high setting (just playing with scrap). I will be using it to weld some exhaust to the turbo flanges (1/4")and let you know how they turned out.
.
Don't want to change the subject, but you told me about a hand bead roller from HF. The only thing I saw there was a $200 bench-top which is out of my price range for how often I'm going to need it at the moment.

 

You forgot to mention the weldernator. Did you retire it for your TIG work?

 

I don’t know what happened to it. I think that harbor frieight has gotten rid of some stuff that they had forever, and also just got rid of some stuff that they still have from their web site (like I can’t find any of their normal slip rolls on the web site but I know they still have them in the stores). The roller that I was talking about looked like THIS but was about half the price and clearly set up to be clamped in a vise to be used.

 

That looks just like the one they have, maybe the girl had the wrong price (she said $199).

 

Anyone ever take the cover off of a HF machine and look at the internal components? All the Lincolns and Millers I have seen give the schematic on the inside of the cover. The spec manuals give part numbers for replacing components. I just ordered some burden resistors for the Miiler 115v unit. I don't think I could have done that with a HF machine.

Do the HF machines come with a schematic? The manuals don't show part numbers for the internal components. Not easy to find replacement parts.

 

83 Crossfire TA,
What type of wire did you use for that exhuast header? E71T-11 .030" (NR-211-MP)? The zero slag has me curious. I tried flux core for the first time the other day with E71T-GS. I know it is bad for any type of real welds due to strength, etc. The thing was the massive amount of slag covering the weld. I have some NR-211 on order and hope the slag is much less.

 

My local HF just had one on sale during their sidewalk sale earlier in the week for $79… but I think that was a local thing. I’ll have to look around, but I think Enco or J&S tools has one for sale right around $100 right now also.

Millers and Hobarts usually have them in their manuals… I know my HF plasma cutter does, but it’s virtually identical to an HTP one, the parts all interchange the only difference I’ve found is the color of the plastic on the gun and the sticker on the side of the cutter…

The only real problem with GS is that it doesn’t have to meet any real standards and the slag it produces does not tolerate multiple passes (and I wonder about a weave, but I’ve tried it and it seems to work fine, I still wouldn’t use it for anything important). Like the linconl GS is probably decent stuff even though it doesn’t have to be.

I believe that it was E71T-11 (it was the same as the spool that came with my handler, but I believe it was Lincoln brand). Try different brands, the flux slag can range from light, powdery white stuff to what looks like brown glass all from the same grade flux core (the wire or the flux doesn’t have to be the same to be that grade, it just has to have at least a certain tensile strength when it’s done and the flux has to have some specific properties). Some could be very difficult to remove, some is a piece of cake. Right now I can’t remember which was which with the Hobart and Lincoln stuff, but they were both very easy to remove, one was like wiping off a light dusting of snow, the other was so brittle that you gave it one or 2 taps with a slag hammer and it all popped right off (if it didn’t pop off from the weld cooling/contracting). That picture was of some of the lighter, fluffier stuff, just wiped off with a rag, but not brushed with a wire brush or anything to make it shiny.

 

If you have to ask about different welders, then I'm sure you're not properly equipped or experienced to install an 8pt roll bar yourself. For something that's meant to save your life it's probably best to get the bar installed professionally by someone who's an experienced welder. Even MIG takes ALOT of practice to begin to get decent welds with good penetration. Just an FYI...I bought a Miller MIG to practice and learn myself, but I wouldn't even think about welding anything myself that could jeopardize mine or anyone else's safety.
Just my .02
- Joel

 

The E71T-GS I used had the hard type brown slag that required chipping. The weld you did doesn't have the slag at the edge of the weld & plate that remains after chipping. I hope the Lincoln NR-211-MP is the wipe off kind of slag.

I downloaded and compared the schematics for the HF 90 amp, Hobart 140, Miller 130, and Lincoln SP 135. The Hobart and Miller have the same circuit. The Hobart has the advantage of the PCB reading the wire speed and can do tracking. The Miller 130 doesn't have that (older designer). Other than that they are the same. The Miller 130 has the PCB circuit and part specs so it is an easy fix if a diode, resistor, relay, or opto-SCR goes bad (a new PCB is $158). A DIYer can fix pretty much anything in the Miller 130 box. The Hobart 140 doesn't give the PCB schematic, but all of the components probably have a normal part number on them. They don't give the schematic for the PCB though. They are usually simple and easy to figure out as long as the parts have a normal manufacturer part number and not end product specific.

The interesting difference between the Miller & Hobart is the burden resistors across the filter capacitor. The Miller uses two resistors. The Hobart didn't show any, but they could be on the PCB. I don't see how they could get away without having them somewhere. The resistors discharge the capacitor when the triggered is off. Without them you get a quick spark after welding, letting off the trigger, and touching the wire to the work.

The Lincoln uses a different transformer and rectifier design than the Hobart & Miller. It uses a transformer with a full bridge rectifier (4 diodes). The Hobart and Miller use a center tapped transformer and half rectifier (2 diodes).
The SP135, HH 140, and MM130 pretty much have the same duty cycle ratings vs. amps. The voltage vs. amps are extremely close. I don't think you would notice the difference in a black box weld-off challenge. The HH 140 has the advantage of wire tracking and that would probably be noticed more than anything.

The HF 90 amp schematic doesn't show a rectifier and capacitor after the transformer, but they have to be there to create DC from the wall input AC. I think I can see them in the physical picture. The big disadvantage of the HF unit is that it doesn't have a contactor so the wire is HOT all the time. An EBAY contactor could probably be added using the wires from the gun trigger to the PCB. Cost would probably only be $20 or so. It would require a 120V 15 to 20 Amp contactor (very heavy duty relay). The transformer has only two heat (voltage) settings instead of the 4 setting of the Miller/Hobart/Lincoln. That really isn't a big deal. The HF PCB looks simple enough that a DIYer could fix it if it broke. The weakest part is the wire feed potentiometer/rheostat is edge soldered to the PCB. A simple gas valve could be wired in but the gun cable would need to be changed. Probably not worth it unless you came across a decent used MIG gun for cheap. it would also require a DCEN / DCEP junction block.

Overall, the HF 90 amp seems like a good buy for $120 if you don't mind only doing flux core. The transformer will last forever. The PCB can be fixed with sub-$20 components for a rebuild. The drive motor is probably common piece along with the capacitor and rectifier diodes. The strange thing is that the schematic and physical picture do not show a cooling fan. That is probably why the low duty cycle for the machine. Add in a (24V ??) cooling fan and the duty cyle would go up.

 

Well, since you brought up weave vs. multi-pass. When working with heavy material I always tend to tack it together first. When using a small under-powered machine and GMAW I use a weave to get more heat into the metal for better penetration. I prefer that over multi-pass with 115v machines and thick plate. I do that with projects that are non-harmful to anyone if it breaks. With a larger machine I will do multi-pass with GMAW and SMAW. The flux core & 115v machine is new to me so I need to read up on it more. From playing around I found that stick-out is the biggest factor in getting a good weld and appearance. I did come across a good read about small diameter flux core at the hobart site that you and klm??? were involved in.

At least I have 2lbs of E71T-GS to practice with before using the E71T-11 on real stuff.

 

After I wrote that I had the thought that all the flux core wire that I’ve used was bought in the 90’s (well, I think an unknown brand of GS was more recent and whatever normal stuff I have now is more recent but I don’t think I’ve used any yet), so at this point I’m not sure that you would get the same exact thing on the spool that I had.

I’ve said this before, Hobart and Miller are the same co. My Handler 135 came with a Miller MIG gun in the box, the handle on it actually has a miller logo as do a few other parts on the welder.

You must have gotten a really old Miller schematic. All the newer small millers do wire speed tracking. As a matter of fact that’s my biggest gripe with them, that the miller wire speed tracking is too aggressive, it’s actually difficult to deal with sometimes, especially when you’re trying to show a noob and you end up “well, you need more power, but now you need to turn the wire speed down because of the tracking” and then they almost always end up confusing the relationship between wirespeed and amps input until you show them on a more “normal” machine.

Huh… never really paid attention when going from machine to machine, but my handler definitely gives a little spark when you touch the wire after welding without the trigger pressed… but by little I mean little, like what you’d get from a small battery, not enough to melt any wire or anything.

I don’t remember if any of the others do it.

You could tell the 3 appart if you stuck them in a black box… like I said, the newer millers and hobarts are distinctly different WRT to wire speed tracking and that would be very noticeable. The Lincoln SP’s have no wire speed tracking which would give them away, but even if you didn’t have control of wire speed (**** hidden, someone setting it to the right settings), the Lincoln PS has a distinctly different feel when you’re welding. The most noticeable difference that I could even get someone not that familiar with welding to notice is that the Lincoln has a noticeable “bounce” in the power supply when you first start a weld, in the first split second when you pull the trigger it’s like the PS was set at maximum, burns off the wire, then nothing and then you start zipping along. The Hobart/miller setup doesn’t do that. The friend of mine that owns the SP that I use a lot has never been able to get a good feel for that for short welds, it drives him crazy. Being the electronics geek that he is, he figured that it was an insufficient extension chord that he was using (and a longer/smaller extension chord does make it worse), so he ended up running a pair 6gauge circuits from each leg in his breaker box that he plugs the welder directly into with no change (he ran a pair, one from each leg because he doesn’t have 220 in the garage and he made himself an extension chord that lets him use the pair as a 220V outlet…).

Yea, my brother got one to tack **** together and then take it to me (or it turns out have me come over sometimes) and finish the welds… I was very surprised to find that, it made it very hard to line up the weld/teach someone with because of it’s bigger deficiency, the gun that comes with it doesn’t guide the wire well and it comes out as a curl of wire toward the bottom of the nozzle, instead of in the middle, and it’s not always in the same place. I did all sorts of playing with it trying to straighten it (burning myself on the chrome nozzle that gets hotter faster then the insulated ones used by the other welders) and didn’t really get anywhere towards making it consistent or centered.

Not a good thing if you like your flip down helmet and are in a tight spot where the only way you can flip down and keep the gun in exactly the same place is to position it touching…

Contactor… I’ve looked for that kind of thing before, the cheapest way seems to be to get something off ebay intended for HVAC use… you can get them in 120 and 220V coil versions…

The 2 settings didn’t seem to bother me when I played with it… I finally decided that I would just leave it on the high setting and play with wire stickout and gun angle to control power input, and wire feed to control heat and that worked well for me. The gun/contactor issues are probably the worst thing about it, and between that and the power supply control I wouldn’t be surprised if it frustrated quite a few people that are not comfortable with a mig. I kind of wonder if my brother will get a handle on it before he gives up. He spent 2 days screwing with it and was able to make the occasional booger weld on thin stuff, but tacking thin stuff to heavy stuff it almost looked like he was trying to feed aluminum wire in to steel… he just shot little globs of molten metal all over the place that stuck to nothing.

I tried it and after figuring out the lack of contactor thing (and wondering if the thing was messed up for about 10 minutes after I did) I got some fairly nice welds out of it.

And yes, there is no cooling fan… and in practice I’m not sure that you need one. I suspect the transformer in the thing isn’t as efficient (its certainly MUCH smaller then in one of the other machines we talked about, judging from weight, like half), and even with the power switch set to high and the wire speed way up you just don’t have as much heat to work with, and you blow 15a breakers with it much easier then with the other welders. In practice I found that the breaker blew WAY before I could get the welder even warm. I have wondered what the capability of the machine would be if you ran it at full steam on a 20 or 25a circuit (I wonder if it’s got an internal fuse, huh?).

 

I also have a HF MIG and the potentiometer is junk. It's inconsistant and by just slightly taping it will cause the speed to change, but like you said once the setting is right it's not a horrible machine (especially for price). I have used it on larger breakers and it still trips the internal breaker that is on a timer for re-start. A way to deal with the crooked wire problem is to fab it up to accept the bigger wire spool which helps keep the wire straighter (and it helped to mess with the tension). I have learned to deal with the wire being hot all the time by resting the chrome end on the piece at an angle so the wire doesn't quite touch, flip the helmet, then lean the wire into the work. In fact I would love to make it work on the trigger and had no idea that was specific to this machine because all of the wire feeds I used were like this. Now you guys have me interested in checking out one of the higher quality units

 

Just a note:

On the new Millers you can turn WST off!!

 

If I get this welder back together tonight I will post what the new Lincoln NR-211-MP creates for slag. The new resistors from the electronics store should be in today so I can put the machine back together tonight and try out the new wire.
The Hobart and Miller are from the same company. The intent was to show the difference between a new Miller/Hobart design from an old Miller design. Yes, it is an older 199x Miller 130. The wire speed is a simple rheostat that is connected to the PCB and the PCB ckt simply turns on the wire feed motor when the gun trigger is pressed. I have never tried a machine with tracking. It doesn't sound all that good to me from what you described. It kind of sounds like the difference between a new tractor/dump truck with an automatic. It sounds good in theory, but when you drive it you can't get it to do the things you can do with a manual trans. I'll take the manual trans. any day. I guess I am better off with a weld machine without tracking.

The HH135/140 and my Miller 130 have an output capacitor after the bridge rectifier followed my a choke. In general, the main transformer converts wall AC to a lower voltage AC, then the retifier makes the AC into DC with some AC, then the capaitior filters that and creates very good DC with slight AC, then the choke removes some more AC and very good DC is the result at the mig gun. The capacitor.........once you let off the trigger, the wire motor stops and the contractor kills power to the main transformer, but the capacitor is still charged. The capacitior is at welding voltage to open circuit voltage (15 - 30 volts) and it is in the 50,000 to 100,000 uF range. When the tip is touched to the work it will discharge through the inductor choke and create a spark. My Miller has a 91,000 uF cap. so the spark is enough to stick the wire to the work piece if the two discharge resistors are bad. This is what mine did so I checked them and both were bad. It was good because it forced me to check out the entire machine on the inside. The newer MM and HH have a capacitor in the 50,000 UF range (about half the energy) so the spark would be much less. The resistors in the older design take away from the mig output power (a little) and need to be replaced after a while.

Yeah, I said the wire tracking would be the only noticeable difference between machines. I was trying to get at the fact that most people wouldn't notice the difference between a 130, 135, 140 Amp machine in terms of output amps. I haven't heard of the mig voltage bounce with the Lincoln. I have always used old (like 198x and 199x) MM or Hobart mig machines. It almost sounds like the choke is sized strange in the Lincoln and causes the large voltage in the beginning of the weld. It could also be due to the main transformer wiring thing. The MM and HH use the voltage tap on the input side of the transformer, the Lincoln uses it on the output side of the transformer. It could be a voltage spike due to the difference is wire diameter and length. Just rambiling at this point.

I never tried an HF machine. Here is some peanut gallery thoughts. Could a piece of tube be put on the wire before it goes into the feeder to help pre-straighten it? Chrome nozzle? I didn't notice that. I wonder if a nozzle from another machine would fit. The MM130 has a slip on nozzle and the Twecos have a screw on nozzle. It also sounded like they run a large tip according to the HF manual for what they call "flux-core" heat expansion.

I have always used machines with a contactor so the wire is cold when not welding. I don't think I could weld at all without a contactor machine. I would probably burn my eyes out becuase of my style learned from using a contactor machine. I think one of the hardest parts of learning SMAW (stick) was that the rod is always hot. I will take contactor GMAW/FCAW and TIG any day over the other machine/weld types. Yes, an industrial contactor would work well for the HF machine. I would probably get a 3 phase controlled, 24vac coil unit. There were a couple single pole and 3 pole units on ebay for cheap a few days ago. Most welders create 24vac internally for controlling things. I am guessing the HF unit does that also. So the control would take 24vac and the main power to the transformer would be controlled. I would first check that 24vac is available and what the gun trigger voltage is and then match up a contactor to that. The controlled side needs to be 115vac 25Amp or higher amps.

The HF manual says the gun is HOT all of the time. If I was a welding newbie that would scare me away instantly. Trying to get the work piece and tip touching and trigger at the same time would be a little difficult to learn for someone starting out. In terms of the heat setting, your method sounds like the best way to run it......full heat(voltage) and adjust wire and stick-out and technique. As for the power supply effieciency, weld machine weight is a good indicator. The HF is 35lbs, the MM130 is 73lbs, the HH140 is about 60lbs. Sure technology has gotten a little better, but a transformer is about wire windings are core matierial. That is what changes effieciency. I laugh when people say they aren't going to buy a welder because it is too heavy. They are basically saying that they don't want to pay for something that is effiecient and will last for ever. Sure, core material has gotten a little better, but not that much better to equalize the large weight difference. The HF is missing the fan, contactor, capacitor, and choke but they don't weigh 35lbs all together. So yeah, the HF transformer is not as efficient. That is what causes the main circuit breaker to trip. The extra current is heating up the transformer instead of doing actual welding.

Miller, Hobart, Lincoln, and any other "normal" weld machine company list in put power rating and output power rating so you can do efficiency calcs. HF doesn't give this data. No CSA rating either.....which seems wrong. All the major companies give the amps. vs. volts curves. HF doesn't give the curves. All the major companies give duty cycle vs. amps. HF doesn't do that either. They just give a worst case and it seems low so a 115vac fan would help. You make a good point in that the HF normally wouldn't be used for extended periods of time. Your description of blowing breakers & less welding strengh shows the transformer is less effiecient than the MM/HH/Lincoln machines. The manual for ALL 115v welders says to use a dedicated 20A breaker. The HF does have an "internal fuse" as do all of the other machines. It is a temperature sensor that sits on the main transformer. The PCB board cuts out the contactor on the HH/MM/Lincoln machines. The HF uses a simple swith that opens one wire of the input power to the transformer (according to the schematic) and turns on the over-heat light. So yeah, the HF will shut itself down if you added a 25A breaker to your box and upgraded wiring.

 

Interesting, I mentioned earlier that the weakest component looked to be the wire speed pot/rheostat. It looks like a small pot designed more for small power supplies and stuff like that. Not industrial use welding material. You could measure the resistance and match up a stronger more reliable unit from an electronic supply store. It would require soldering and measure elec. and physical size.

In order to add the contactor you need to measure voltages so see if 24vac is available and what voltage is switched at the gun. All that would be measured at the PCB with the fuse on it. The small wire feed motor looks like a DC unit so they would would have to be making low voltage DC in there somewhere. !!!WARNING!!! electricity can kill. Use proper equipment and technique if removing the cover of the welder. Read the machine manual and follow all instructions about testing/fixing the machine.

The HF sounds fine for small stuff. I was in the market for a new machine and picked up the used Miller Millermatic for $180. It was setup for flux core. I just spent about $120 for a new Harris regulator & line, NR-11-MP flux core, tips, nozzles, gloves, wire cleaners/lubers, anti-spatter, ground clamp, and a few more things. So I have $300 into this thing. A recon HH125MIG or HH140 is a good buy. The HH140 is actually a better buy for the money. The HH140 design is MUCH better than the HH125 on the inside. The HH140 design is the same as the MM130. I didn't want to spend $400+ on a HH140 when the used MM130 with the equiv. parts would be about $270. So yeah, I cheaped out in a sense which I normally don't do on tools. The other thing the MM130 had going for it is that the manual had the FULL schematic for the welder INCLUDING the PCB. The parts list includes the component descriptions (like xx ohms, xx UF, SCR 100amp). I can get all of the parts including the PCB opto-isulator from an electronics store. To rebuild the PCB it would cost about $20 and a brand new one is $160. The MM130 wire speed control contacts are like new, the wire motor brushes are like new, the case is kind of beat up, but the internals are in very good condition. I do have 2 resistors for it on order ($2.20 each) where as Miller wanted $20 for both resistors. All parts in this thing have real manufacturer part numbers on them which is good. I am actually replacing the stock resistors with better/bigger parts that will last longer.

As for the HF, I still think it is a good buy if you can't find a good used machine. I did look at it a little before buying the MM130. To make it like I wanted, it would have cost:
$120 for the machine
$20 for an ebay various brand contactor
$85 for a harris regulator and line
$20-40 for a gas valve / nitrous valve
$20-40 for a fan
-----
$265 to $305

In the end, the MM130 was a better buy in terms of efficiency/weld output, gun reliability, and parts availability & schematic.

Just having the contactor in the HF would make it much more user friendly.

 

I prefer a big, slow weave… how big and slow depends on how thick the steel is, but I’ve done stuff with 1/2” plate like this. Muli pass just doesn’t seem to ever look as nice/right as a nice weave.

I don’t know why you specify “projects that are non-harmful to anyone if it breaks…” Both multi pass and a weave are normal, acceptable procedure when you’re running a weld with a welder that can’t build a thick enough bead to fill what you’re working on. As long as you get the penetration necessary for the strength you need (which is not always full penetration, but even when that does that just depends on appropriate joint prep for the machine being used and the thickness being welded). If you dig through the archives on the Hobart forums there will be a thread where me and another member tested this with my handler 135 and his MM 251 on some ½” plate. I believe that the MM 251 could do the weld in either 2 or 3 passes, where I did one with a bunch (don’t remember, till the whole bead was proud of the surface of the plate) and with a really heavy weave. We tested a bunch of samples destructively using both a press and vise/sledge and found that there was no appreciable difference between the strength of the weld types. None of them broke before any of the others, and none of them even broke at the weld, even with the weld dressed down, and a section cut out of the original piece that was welded so weld bead profile didn’t affect the results. FWIW, this was with ER70S-6, so flux wasn’t a factor, but I’ve tried it with all position flux core since then also.

I’ve done this on a ton of stuff since then, and I would say that if you can keep things moving and hot (with big pieces of metal like that involved, even gloved in heavy welding gloves you can’t keep your hands leaning or anywhere near the metal, much less near the weld), it works fine (though I have had issues with SP135 tips just blasting off and missing like a ¼” long chunk at random when running hot like that, if that falls into the weld obviously that’s going to hurt strength/quality).

No idea… you’d have to refresh my memory if it’s anything important/helpful. As far as stick out, when we’re talking about heavy stuff when you’re really pushing things, and for that matter, usually, the closer you keep the tip the better things go till you melt the tip/burn the wire into it…

Lately on things like the press brake that I posted links to on the fabrication board, I had real issues with this (a lot of fairly heavy pieces welded to ½” plate). I could lay down a good weld, but not a pretty one. I finally found that these little welders that are supposedly optimized for .024” wire, REALLY like .030 and .035” when welding heavier stuff… you just have to turn back the wire feed to compensate for the extra area (amps)
Funny how 2lbs can be a lot to practice with but almost nothing when you start a real project.

 

I made up the resistor pack and installed it (two 25watt 50+/-5% ohm Vishay-Dale). Stock was two 20watt 50+/-5% ohm. The 25watt units should last longer. It actually seemed to improve welding a bit and the spark after welding and touching the work is gone. The spark it had really sucked.
The contactor in it is labeled 115v 25A, it has two paths for controlling both the sides of the 115vac input voltage. The coil side is 24vac.

That is good to hear. That is how I have always done it, but a lot of people tell me that I should do stringer multi-pass. The weave always seemed to result in a stronger and better looking weld.

.
I said the "harmful to anyone" thing to keep the "junkcltr, your welds are dangerous" people from giving me a hard time. That post about the 1/2" plate at the Hobart site with klm??? is the one I was referring to earlier as being a good read. I weld thick stuff the same way you do I guess. I bury the tip as close as I can to get the most current (heat) possible and do a weave. I haven't destroyed any tips like that though. I don't weld thick stuff very often. Mostly sheet metal like the old gas grill I am making into a cart for the MM130.

For doing panels, intake & exhaust pipe I run .023" solid wire all the time. I mostly do 16 gauge and thinner pieces. Anything thicker and .030" solid would be better. The Hobart MIG guide on their site has a chart for wire size that is dead-on / optimized in terms of what I have found to work best. Flux-core.......I have no idea because I am just starting out. I use the Hobart chart as a guide. I don't see how the machine is optimized for a certain wire from a design point of view. I think all of that is BS. It is more about the wire, plate thickness, volts, and amps. The internals are adjustable to match all the wire sizes that it supports. Yeah, the bigger the wire requires a reduction in wire speed. Someone told me that they were optimized for a certain size before. I asked them how so in electrical terms and they basically said "they just are". I can't see how that is by looking at the components in one of these things. The manufacturers give the voltage vs. amp curves. All the heat selector curves have the same shape. Anyway, it is more about setting it up with the right wire and adjusting the controls. Bigger plate needs bigger wire.

That 2lbs of wire is way more practice than I need. I am not a pro-welder by any means, but like you said 2lbs of messing around is a lot. I am kind of pissed the weld shop sold it to me. My fault I guess for not knowing jack about flux-core. I would start chewing it up on test plates, but it makes more smoke than my garage fan can handle. It is outdoor only wire for any welds longer than a few inches when used in my shop/lean-two. I think I am going to start using the ER71T-GS to make the cart for the Miller machine. It is made by weldcote so I am going to see if they have the datasheet online for it and try to figure out if it is any good.

 

I tried out the Lincoln NR-211-MP E71T-11 .030" flux-core wire. It gives the same slag as the GS wire I have. It needs to be chipped. The bead lays down the same using the same technique and welder settings. The most apparent thing was the flexibility of the wire. The GS will do a 180* degree bend and the Lincoln NR-211 snaps at about 45 degrees or greater. The lincoln wire is much more brittle. I then tried out the new Harris regulator with some .023 solid wire and gas.....my normal setup. Wow, this welding machine lays down a nice bead.

Weldcote does have the specs for the GS wire. I need to look up the specs because the lincoln -11 passes the -95 spec and the Weldcote doesn't mention it. Doing the backyard hammer test shows that the Weldcote GS is good for the cart. Surprisingly, the Weldcote datasheet says that it is good for autobody panel repair. I thought I read in your 1/2" plate thread that klm??? said that it wasn't speced for autobody repair.

 

HMMM.

I wonder if the internal breaker could be utilized as a contact to fix the "hot wire" problem. Eventually I will get a good MIG, but this was a "I need to fix this right now" purchase and didn't want to spend $400 at the time.

How difficult would it be to retrofit gas on there, and how much better is it using gas w/soild wire? I'm guessing if I can get a decent bead with the flux wire, probably be even better with gas.

The weave pattern you are talking about, is that small "figure 8's" or a swirl that you are lapping?