What do you guys think of my project, I should have it together next year; please don't ridicule it.. I'm going to design it this summer, and use the stock cam, advanced 4* and using 1.6 comp cam roller rockers, and then It should work great. Because Chris from TPIS, told me that advancing the cam, would take the stock torque from 350, to 430 to 450. So I did that, and I'm going to use the stock TPI intake that I ported, with cleaned up runners and I smoothened out the plenum and made it work better.

I also have the MAF sensor, descreened, and definned, and I'm going to use Hooker super comps, 1/3/4" primary, with 3.5" collectors and are the long tubes ovbiously, custom x-pipe modeled after a burns stainless steel x-pipe, with bullet mufflers and dumps before the axle. I am also using my own custom CAI for now, but once this project is finished, I'm going to use the reverse scoop, that's like a '79-'81 T/A's scoop, but larger, it's a 5", through a 6-banger hood, because I'll eventually use my Holley Stealth Ram intake, and it will add more top end to the motor, which is what I need. Eventually a 200-4r transmission; one, because it's still an over drive tranny, and two, because the gear spacing is closer, than a 700-r4's and it can still take at least 800hp, so. Check this out, and let me know what you think.

TWIN SUPER CHARGER PROJECT

Then my supercharger project will have to come together, I have two
mp-62's that I will design flanges, a pulley system for about 9 lbs of boost, use this with a huge intercooler I have; it has 3" in/outlets, its 4" thick, 12" tall and 30" long and bar and plate designed good for up to 40 lbs of boost. Then an alcohol injection system; those two together will keep the boost temps cool; good for a stock shortblock and safe; and 48-50 lb injectors for fuel delivery, and a boost pressure refrencer. I'll get that set up with the factory cam, then go to the nasty one. I already have the intercooler, super chargers, alcohol injection, and my Design I am in the process of patenting right now.

Everyone is going to be surprised, and have crazy looks, when under the hood, I am going to use two super chargers because I got them for the right prices, because these are the most efficient blowers from eaton they offer, they only use 2/3 of 1 hp when not under boost, and can go to 14,000 rpm, and the hottest outlet temperature is no higher than 175* so they are going to work great with the rest of my design, and maybe it will be together this year.

No one else has come up with a design like this, that's why I'm going to patent it, then anyone that has eaton blowers can use them, on any size motor, any brand, and it's also cheaper than a procharger, and will work as good, and better and for any CI motor. The reason I decided to design this setup, was because forced induction works great, and turbos are great, but too complicated. So why not use super chargers, they're reliable, and great. And I will make a kit that anyone can buy for what size superchargers they want to use. I will design different flanges, tubing setups, intercoolers, and all the components for anyone to use this as a cheaper setup for your own car. This will work great because superchargers are in tons of factory cars, especially the different brands, and My kid can be used on different brands so, it will be fantastic.

I am going to use the old TPI ported intake on the LT1 I have with a distributor, instead of an OPTI and go from the carbed 305 boat anchor, to the LT1 in this '85 pontiac parisenne station wagon, with edelbrock headers, and a 3" catback with no cat since the emissions have changed since January for '95 and older vehicles, and use a turbo muffler on it, so it is managable, since my mom likes to drive it and turbos flow great. It will be a tow vehicle for my dads '68 GTO, to take to the track, and to move boats we have; check out the page 11 on my site. I am going to put this info for these projects on my site tomorrow at some point, I just thought I would put this info out there for everyone to have an idea, that I'm crazy.

This is the supercharger project explained better

Heres the setup explained for all to read and understand:

Well, I bought them used at a place called Pick-n-Pull in summit off 61st and 171(archer). I am designing this setup; and I didn't want a procharger because of the expense incurred, yeah they work great, but are too expensive for me at the age of 22, without a great job yet, when I pay for everything I want. So I figured that designing my own setup would be the best way, with the things I know, I have done a lot of reading, and even bought a book that explains how Eaton blowers work, and a lot of others about blown and turbo applications, and custom setups.

I'm designing my own flanges for the blowers boost side; I will attach the flanges with a bracket to hold the blowers above the heads, using the accesory bolt holes, and design the flanges in a manner that they won't interfere with the serpentine setup or anything else and since I'm designing this, it will work great; it will be a little bit loud from when they're making boost though.

I'm going to design a flange for bolting the throttle body to. Create a 4" plenum that will go into 2/3/4" steel tubes off the plenum into a Y that each tube will go to the inlet side of the blowers.

Then use 3" tubing to attach the outlets(boost sdie) of the blowers welded to their flanges I made, to come together from both blowers, then lead to the inlet side of the intercooler I am using, it's HUGE as I mentioned.

Then use a 3" tube, returning back to the TB side, going into the TB, where it would normally be; I will have a bolt on flange inlet attached to the HSR. Right when the tube goes out of the intercooler, I will set my alcohol injection up, so it will have time to spray the alcohol in, I may also try it where the return goes into the HSR; that may be more effective. I am also going to spray the outlet tubing black for releasing the heat better, that's proven, the inlet stuff, I may polish for nice looks, either way it will look crazy.

For the inlet side where the blowers are sucking air through their Y, into the small plenum, then TB. Then run that through the MAF sensor, then to my cold air injection, it will work really well, I may buy one of the after market TB's, they always help rather than hinder Blown applications.

For the pullies, I will design a great system, without having to go to huge serpentine pullies, with most of the pullet having belt on it, for the blowers, they won't be able to slip. This is going to work great, and look intimidating as the first one ever, no one has had or made a setup like this, I'm in the process of patenting it right now.

Because I'm making this setup, people can buy either; Mp-62's, mp-90's or mp-122's off lightnings, or Z06's etc. I'll let you all know when it's all finished. Any other questions?


You can view my fresh parts and the status of my motor on this page:
www.cardomain.com/ride/471099

 

This design is a heck of a lot more complicated than you seem to be expecting

Ive designed several intakes to mount twin M90's and Ive simply decided its not feasable

Feel free to try it for yourself, learning by experience is best

Do not fool yourself into thinking your the first to try twin superchargers of ANY type

Common SC's to be found are Thunderbirds, Lightnings, Cobalts, various Cadillacs, Mercedes, Jaguar, and Mini's

By intercooling the blowers you are essentially killing the fact that they are roots style. This is a big reason why centri blowers are used extensively

Be wary of single serpentine belts. Once you get your blowers to not slip you will likely have too much tension for your other pulleys and damage their life or your pulleys life to something thats stupidly short

Post a pic of the design if your looking for specific criticism, hearing a long winded speech about how great its gonna be wont help people see if its a good product or not

 

Search Satern5 on the fabrication board you will find exactly what you are trying to do, but he did it with a monty I think (Its been awhile a few years actually) But he had twin eatons M-90s mounted and had some problems with it unfortunatly but it was a great project and inspired alot of my projects present and future. So yea that should help get you started I dont know if hes still around havent seen him in along time sence he blew the motor, but if he is Im sure he would be able to give you a ton of advice, oh and your going to need a killer hood design for it but I would love to see when you get started.

 

Well, go to my site, www.cardomain.com/ride/471099 page one, and I plan on using a 6 cylinder hood, and since I'm going to use the HSR, I am going to need some more room anyway. I plan on runnin the tubes after the Intercooler, into the TB on the HSR, but I will run the 2/3/4" intake air tubes from the MAF to a Large K&N airfilter under that, 5" fiberglass scoop, that the design comes from a '79-'81 T/A.

I will check out that other guy though, because that's interesting, but since I'm using an intercooler, that's 4" thick, 12" high, and 30" long, with 3" in/outlets, that will help alot. Plus I'm going to use some Methanol injection, to cool the charge down, but those M62's are the most efficient design, EATON makes, the hottest the boost they make, only gets to 176* F, at ten pounds of boost, and because of it's design, it never gets hotter,

The efficiency of these super chargers is incredible because of it's helical design, that's why I decided to buy another, one, and design this setup for a grand! Prochargers are great, but EXPENSIVE!!! They only begin, as a positive roots supercharger design, the adiabatic efficiency with helical rotors, after 12,000 RPM, it gets below 60% efficiency; while at 14,000 rpm, it's still at 52% efficiency. While it's volumetric efficiency up to 14K, is 92-95%.

The other amazing part of this supercharger is that, the temperature variation for an eaton M62 is less than 10 degrees from 4K to 14K, and all this information above and what I wrote here, is from Eaton.

Also. while the Mp-112 displaces 1.84 liters of air per revolution, the mp-62 diesplaces 1, so for two, 2! So they are an Mp-114 instead of 112, and for the price, 45$ for one, and 89$ for the other, it's far cheaper than anything else, and I'm going to patent this, and any one can use this type of design with, M20, M45, M62, M90, or mP112. And they can be used for any C.I. basically. It will also save alot of money. I got my alcohol, NOS for 75$, it's a common unit, while the intercooler was 350$ and can take 40 lb's of boost!

 

well there is a whole lot of words there. i say try it cause im all for new things and being different. however did you come up with a way to run the 2 throttlebodies on the superchargers along with the tpi throttlebody? what type of pully system will you go for? a air to air ic will be useless with the roots blowers. instead try devising an intake manifold and run a water intercooler. check out www.zzperformance.com in the gtp section to see what i mean. good luck

 

STOCK cam? Advanced or not, there has got to be a better way. The stock cam is horrible.

 

Single throttle body with the supercharger tubing running through it much easyer alternator relocated to where smog pump goes and ac delete custom brackets to mount and thats where the super chargers could theoreticly go. Hypotheticly speaking it could suck the air in through a set of air filters run it through the Intercooler (yes I know loss of boost but stick with me its the same setup as the member I mentioned above basicly) mounted of course in front of the radiator because of the space issue and up to the throttle body if you could design the hood you could run the plumbing up by the hood latch but that would take a interesting looking hood and it would probably be much easyer to cut and run through the sides of the raditator (where the battery and charcol cannister goes), much easyer then running a dual throttle body. I dont understand why you would treat it any diffrent then a single larger roots style supercharger or even a twin turbo setup. Any cam designed to run boost should be a better choice then a stock cam. But thats just my oppinion Ive been down that road and Im going the N/A route instead of a super or turbo charger. Anyways hope that helps alittle bit.

 

I am going to use my HSR intake for the blowers, and use a flange I make, adapting for 2/3/4" tubing running from the blowers together above the Plenum on the HSR, and leave some room so the air can go into the two pipes, that's why I'm only going to use one TB. Especially with having the T/V cable, cruise control wire, and throttle wire. With a stock tb, that will help. Two work well, but that's two many cables.

The air to air intercooler, will also be using a methanol injection setup. I don't want to have to keep running ice into the resevoir when I'm at the track, and keeping it cool, because that takes away from the consistancy. I plan on doing some bracket racing eventually, so that's important, this intercooler can take up to 40 lbs. of boost, but I'm only going to use about 10 for now, until I build a motor for more! It's also a bar and plate design, so that's good too.

THe mp-90's are a little less efficient than the m-62's, that's why I'm using them, they are the most efficient design by eaton they make. And I'm going to have plenty of tubing, and it's going to be painted black to help remove the heat, it's proven and a fact that black painted material helps remove heat, that's why they use it on heat sinks and things on any electronic component.

Thanks I could mount one where the stock a/c idler pulley is replacing the a/c, and mount the alt. where the smog pump goes, because that 's gone too! I will run it through the intercooler, this one is pretty efficient. I could always replace the piece where the hood latch goes too, I'll just get one from the bone yard, and cut some holes through it for the tubing, since it's a one of 25 made car. And I'm just going to use 2/3/4" tubing, coming together, above the HSR's plenum, into a small plenum for the TB, then use the stock one for now, and a bigger one later, to save money. So that would be just one, especially for the TV cable, and cruise, and gas!

It's going to be similar to a roots setup, just with two blowers. I'll get one of the boost reference systems, for 10PSI when a pound of boost comes on, I'll might just use the stock cam, advanced still, with the 1.6 roller rockers for now, then go bigger, that's the same setup for the 600B procharger setup, a guy I knew with a '89 L98 car, was pulling the wheels off the ground, with just manifolds, and stocker gears, but he had a 2500 stall.

But I am still trying to find that guys setup, to get some more info from, I appreciate your input, when it's done, I'll have some pics posted of it for sure, and you'll be the first to know about it!

Hopefully it will be running with it this summer, and I'll get ASP to make me the custom pulley for the crank, since I have the racing underdrive 51% for the crank, 23% for the alt, and not charging problems, when you drive and use power the way they're designed for.

I need one if you go to my site, with a bout the factory size pulley in front of the one for the stock accessories, and the brackets for the accessories, need one in front of that one, otherwise there will be some interference issues, go to my page, and check it out, on page one, I have the cam chrome cover and damper, and pulley on it now, if I get the gaskets for the heads today like I'm supposed to, I will definitelly get to it by thursday for sure, check it out!

 

Looks like a solid car very nice. I cant wait to see how the project comes along. Deffinitly keep me posted and Ill help out with some advice when I can. I'll see if I cant pull up some of the old posts of his I kept tabs on the project very closly because it was the first time I had seen something like that and I had designed a set up to fit in a Trans AM based on his work so hopefully I can help out some, But the bracket idea I had going was probably the best Idea that could be taken away from all of that, you might have some problems clearing the hood I had a diffrent design set up for the hood that I was going tofiberglass to make it fit basicly two slanted 2 inch by 4 inch scoops that came and joined in the center by the hood latch to form a kind of V like a moddifed ram air hood. Anyway I would like to see some of your plumbing ideas when you start to get everything fabbed up. If you want an another idea you can run the plumbing around the radiator by cutting it under the battery box and back out in frount of the radiator same with the other side, down under where the charcole canaster and out in frount of the radiator to the intercooler and up by the hood latch like I said you might want to get a pin latch kit if you do that though I dont think there would be a clearance issue with a pin latch. Anywho hopefully that will help out alittle Ill see if I cant hunt down those posts I was telling you about.

 

Ok so here it is in order from start of project (first link) to the end of the project (he had motor problems) which is the last link. Hope this helps He did end up having a ton of problems with the set up and blew his 305 with 10 pounds of boost he also had a pipe failure but I didnt link it because there was no actual information on the project. But I also have the link for what I searched for to begin with so thats will give you prity much the whole project information that he shared with us at least. Hope this helps....
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...0-install.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...-part-2-a.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...s-mounted.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...part-dual.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...-part-3-a.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...thing-air.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...s-streets.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...ack-times.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...lt-set-up.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...ting-pics.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...take-mods.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...wer-setup.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...take-misc.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...ons-alive.html
And this is what I searched, sorry I gave you some bad info it was actually in the power adder forum.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/sear...earchid=967006

 

Hey, thanks for that info, that blower I'm going to use is so huge, it's going to be great, it can handle 40Lbs of boost, the 4" thickness, 12" high, and 30" length, its going to be so great and work really well, and with that methanol injection , it will work even better, and the charge wil be really cool.

People always complain, about me saying things I know of as a fact. But I just know a lot about things , and I will only use what I know is verified as a fact. If there is people that do this stuff for a job, and has spent a ton of time working on the same ****, then I'll use there info instead.

I like what you have given me, because it's actually something that has actually been done. So I'll trust that. Thanks a bunch.

 

Wow....I'm kind of at a loss for words. I don't want to rain on your parade, but you are diving into this all wrong. You're worrying about little things that won't really matter and just skipping over the things that really need your attention.

First go learn what it will take to get the stock fuel injection system to work with boost, this will make or break the project.

Then go get a ruler and see if there physically room to mount the blowers where you want to mount them.

Please don't be offended, we've all had pie in the sky ideas for projects, but you're approaching this all wrong and you really don't understand how all these components interact.

 

I really don't like being mean...but you forced my hand after wasting my time reading that.

I stopped reading after the last line there. You have proved yourself a fool by that line, and I needed no further convincing. The fact you destroyed your MAF sensor speaks volumes of how much you actually know about fuel injection.

All that by the end of the year. You must be rich and not work, cause my guess is you won't see daylight the rest of the year while your putting this together.

I suggest reading a book(you know, the things made from dead trees that I use to kill spiders). Any book, because it's obvious you haven't read anything about this subject.

I hate to say it, but your design is so full of holes and misinformation, you really need to read a book.

Listen to what BMmonteSS said...he hit it right on the head.

 

OK is everyone ignoring me or what I just posted a whole mess of links to another person on this very board who has ALREADY DONE THIS! I dont like being mean eather but I know what I am talking about and this has already been done so if its been done it can be duplicated. Yes there are a ton of problems with running a dual set up like that but hell if he wants to do it at least give the guy some credit even if he is ill informed alittle. I spent a ton of time following Saturn5's project and designing one of my own (sure never got around to doing it but its possible to do.) If he wants to be diffrent all go as long as hes not hurting anyone why not let him go and do it assuming he does the proper designing and work to get it all done right. Done put someone down because they want to try something diffrent help lift him up thats why hes here to begin with to have some help with his project. Anyway I was in the process of discussing his cam choice (which i didnt agree with to begin with anyway) And if hes going to be running alchy I would assume that he would upgrade his fuel system and computer accordingly. Bottom line its been done it can be done again, and it does work just not very well but if someone wants to do it help him out if you know all this help build the guy up not tear him down.

 

Ummm...... Well..... Where to begin. First your not the first, hell neither was I for that matter so designing a kit to fit three entirely different Eatons will be a challenge and patenting it might be impossible.

Second, forget the M62's... wasting your time there. A single ported overdrivin M90 will push more air then two 62's.

Twin TB's complicate both linkage and electronics. Go with a single.

STA posted the majority of the threads about the system I did in a Malibu. (all under stock hood BTW) 83CrossfireTA's brother has a 84 LTD II running a single M90 on a 5.0L running last I knew low 11's. Mike Sitar did the first real twin setup on a 351 equipped 87 T Bird that ran 10's. Most all have, myself included to turbocharging..

Running twins puts a ton of load on a 8 rib belt. Think of Dr. Doolittle's Push me pull you. This was a single most reason I shelved my setup. Turning $45 belts into dust after a few passes adds up quick.

Also, if noise is an issue.. You could hear mine 3 blocks away..

I'd also look into $58 code with either a 7730 or 7749, or go Megasquirt.

Bracketry, needs to be solid as the belt and blowers really want to twist.

Just some of what to expect..

You got quite a project ahead of you.. Good luck. Bob

 

Well, I don't think you read through all of this, I'm not running twin throttle bodies, just one, and I spoike to eaton, and the 92's don't have enough air for a 350 that's going ober 6K rpm, EATON told me that, I spoke with them. That's why I am going to use twin m-62's, because there the most efficient. And the way I am moving the belt over the pulleys, is also going to be different, I am going to have the belt covering 85% of the pulleies, so slippage won't be a problem.

I am agoing to stick with a MAF system, and Ed Wright, is going to burn me a chip, that will work with this setup, he already told me that, I don't want a MAP system, those are popular ones, because they're easy to tune, I'm not like that, MAF's are better, more exact systems, than a MAP will ever be.
Thanks for your input though, that's why I did this post.

 

Thanks for stopping by Bob I appricate it. Knew I could get you over here to help out lol. Anywho this is deffintily going to be a project and I cant wait to see how it comes out, as for the Eaton thing you two can go over the specific's for that Im staying out of that mess.

 

I've been thinking about running dual M62's as well some day, mainly because one can find them easily, quite a bit harder to find the M90's or M112's.


Not trying to steal this thread or anything but .. does it matter whether one would use a TPI setup with MAF or with Speed Density ?


I've looked at Saturn5's setup before, and what really interests me is, how are the blowers mounted ? Where do it all bolt to ?

 

This is how aston martin handle twin superchargers, but m90's in this case.
Being slightly Monking and obsessed with symmetry, I'm sure sure I can bring myself to mount just my single m112, unless directly in the middle of the engine.

 

Well for one, I don't know where pizza_guy, I didn't destroy my MAF sensor, TPIS has done this, My car ran great with it that way, it's for more airflow. It has been done before, I didn't damage anything, where did you get the idea, that I destroyed it?

I'm running the intercooler, because I'm still running the stock shortblock, I want to keep the charge cool and easy on the stock mahle hypereutectic pistons, and that will make it last, plus the cooler the charge with the alcohol injection, the cooler the charge, every 10* cooler, will add 1 horsepower.

No I am not going to run 40lbs of boost, but I just said it could handle it, eventually, I might push that much eventually, but with a built motor.and this motor puts out, 124 CI of airflow, that has been shown to make a ton of hp, get it? I didn't ask Chris, I know that this idea will work, others have proven it too work, and has been done in several different ways, so why talk about this?

Like what has been said, I asked for your opinions and comments about what you think; not how to cut it down, but think about it and give me suggestions; I have gone to school for engineering, and have several books on this stuff. I have read a lot on supercharging and turbocharging. And I have talked to several engineers from Eaton, and they also agreed; that with some tuning, trials and tribulations, it can work, and work great. And the efficiency behind this idea, and price of being cheap, availability of M62's, is why I wanted to try this idea.

I also am not going to use the same flanges for 3 different blowers, but have three different designs, that I plan on using with the other blowers. It is just a possibility, for use, depending on the CI of the motor.


Super trans man, I appreciate your help on here, who was Bob?

Vorgath, You could use either setup, the map setup would be easier than a MAF one, they require more tuning. But since , I am going to be using the MAF sensor, on the induction side, but like I said, I will be doing some tuning, and see when I go full throttle, I am going to be watching the air fuel ratio like a hawk.

The other cam I'm going to be using, is quite a bit nastier, its a comp cams roller; .555int/.576exh gross lift; with 293@.006/298@.006 lift duration, both with 1.6 roller rockers, and it's ground 4* forward. So a LSA 112+4, and a tech guy from Comp Cams told me I could run 9-10 lbs of boost, and obtain with a good supercharging setup, 180-200 hp, with this cam. This is a custom cam, the guy that ran it in a LT1, stock with few upgrades, fuel pump exhaust, ported intake was running 11.70's, N/A.

Then when I put that cam in, I'll be putting a 255lph fuel pump in it, and the alcohol injection setup, will be running from the windshiled washer resevoir, and Ed Wright from Fast Chip will be doing a chip for me, we've already talked about this too. I have done my homework on this project for two years.

I may also put some 22 lb injectors in the intake ducting, to cool off the charge, this has been done for years, and since I have 8 extra, new injectors, I might do this too, people are going to **** a brick on how effective this project of mine is going to work and be amazed.

I am going to mount the blowers on custom brackets, off the accessory bolt holes on the cylinder heads, on each cylinder head. My Uncle is a machinist, and he will make me brackets out of aluminum for this project. I may also have ASP racing make me custom pulley's for this setup, cog pulleys; I am talking to my uncle, a machinist about making a custom crank pulley for me; then I have nothing to worry about. I will have plenty of room with my tubing, and everything, I have already done some measuring, I will room for these blowers under the hood. And some to spare.

With my 6-cylinder hood, I will have that scoop on my site at www.cardomain.com/ride/471099 above the intake, it should all work and fit well, when I am done with it.


People have mounted a MP112 directly to an LT1 intake, and had good luck with it, but they are kind of hard to find, I haven't found one yet, I have found so many Mp62's, a lot trashed, becaused people don't know how to remove the pulleys.

 

1) Running an intercooler will make the boost HARDER on the shortblock

Reason: Cooler air is more dense, means you can stuff more air into the firing chamber and in turn more fuel. This makes a bigger bang and more power but the extra power is extra stress on the bottom end

2) 10* = 1HP? Where did you read that and why are you concerned with minor things like this before the motor is being tuned

3) Build the motor to hold your projected boost + some or scrape the bits and pieces up later. Ive seen MANY a good motor spread across the track because the moron thought the stock engine could take it

Make your engine work BEFORE you brag about your hp numbers. Ive got a 650hp engine sitting in my closet in pieces. It makes no difference until its in the car runnin like a bat outta hell.

It 'can' work, but until you dump the cash into it, its just a pipe dream

You seem pretty optimistic for an engineer, all the engineers I know look at where something like this could go wrong instead of what perfect combination and superstition could make it right. Eaton engineers are paid to make and sell blowers. A kid asks about buying two blowers for a fantasy motor is great for them. Screw whether it works or not, thats not their job

Thats a good cam for a NA car
Beware the 1.6 rockers will boost the lift since lift is measured at a 1.5 rocker ratio for most cases
Use a blower cam for a SBC not this one

So he made 180-200hp with a supercharger on a LT1 with this cam
Believe NOTHING else this guy tells you, whatever he did lost 50hp off the stock LT1 should make you run away

What? Your moving your injectors up on the plastic intake tube? Are you nuts?
Not even going there

And stop glorifying your "product" thats still a pipe dream

 

Bob is Saturn5 lol as far as the brackets try this on and tell me what you think as far as what your bolting to, bolt it to where the alternator and the AC brackets go obviously but for the back half of that use the header bolts (you will probably need longer bolts but big deal if your using this much money in the car anyway) and use the intake bolts it will give you a much tighter hold and its going to be pulling a ton on your bracket so its just as important to have it held down as it is to be strong enough to hold the super chargers (all this should work if my measurements are right at least lol). the only problem with that is getting to the valve cover's but it shouldnt be a big deal if its a race car. I have to agree with pocket on the choice of cam and thats going to set the pace for the rest of the car, if you really want some good advice give comp cams a call and go over your set up when your further along so they can give you a good choice of cam. unfortuantly i dont agree with much else he said. you shouldnt rip people appart because you dont agree with there project or ideas, hes just excited eh I would be too hell. But honestly you should try to get the basic's of the project down set up the brackets get the superchargers mounted and go over a few measurements before you get too far into it to make sure you have everything you want right. remember measure twice cut once. But honestly and take this from my life lessons if you will, get the project started without all the fancy stuff dont worry about how it looks just how it fits and functions, once you can turn the key and get it going then worry about everything else and if you want make it look good. Because you will kick yourself if you dump a ton of money into something that doesnt work the way you wanted or didnt need, or worse just didnt fit and who knows you might be happy with it the way it is before you get crazy modding something. Good luck and keep us informed on how the project goes.

 

Like I posted before, I'm mainly interested in seeing the bracketry etc to make it work

I think twin M-62's may also be good because less chance of pushing WAY too much boost into the engine at the first try *shrug*

 

The first thing I'm going to say is this: I'm no kind of expert engine builder, mechanic or engineer. That being said, if you want power on the cheap, youre going about it all wrong. Sure you got your M62s on the cheap and thats great, but by the time you fabricate your flanges, mounting brackets, work out your EFI system, and what all else you need to make this work, you'll have spent a small fortune on it. Personally I'd rather go with turbocharging, the local junkyard sells em for $60 apiece. Sure you'll need to find a couple that aren't seized or leaking, but thats not too hard. Then you fab up your piping and route it into the TB and work out your EFI issues. Easier and cheaper. I'm all for having an original idea, but sometimes tried and true is better. I think your system will work, but it wont be as easy or cheap as you seem to think. Its going to be a nightmare. All the same, I wish you luck on your project.

 

This will be an interesting thread to watch. I demand photo documentary of all your modifications, trials, and tribulations. Thank you.

 

You'll need boost capable engine management, which in GM world would be a 7730/7749 running $58 which is SD. Plus not having a MAF is one less sensor and restriction to worry about. Those who insist on MAF are more worried about their lack of tuning skills since MAF can cover a wider range of error.

The M62's are a waste of time. Either start with M90's or don't cry when the 62's don't make the power you want. Plus most of the M62's that are available are GM units with a bastard snout out back.

My setup used modified serpentine brackets up front with plates bolted to them, then a brace to each header and each side of the intake in the rear. Both mounted to bosses on the rear of each M90. The alternator was relocated to where the smog pump originally was. Sorry, no AC with twins..

I was able to peg a 2 bar MAP running the two M90's at stock impeller speeds. Porting each did the same thing only at lower engine RPM's. I could have overdriven each 10% and I'm sure get close to 20lbs total boost.

Kicker is I don't believe this trick can be pulled off under a stock F-body hood. It was close with the Malibu and I know the F-body has a lower fender line.

To the OP. Just a heads up... Running gasoline thru any Eaton is a bad idea. I'll let you figure out the reason why...

Best of luck.. Bob

 

LOL Bob your brackets where exactly how I had mine set up when I was laying out the plan. But as far as making power on the cheep not going to happen. Nitrous is probably the best bang for the buck. However that being said I picked up a M-90 from a Grand Am? I think I dont quite remember where it came from but I got it for 350 shipped to my door, worked great too for my app. Thats when I ran accross bobs twin M-90 setup and started planing my own for a drag car that I had going. Funding ran dry midway through so I scrapped the project and oppted for a Carbed Nitrous setup instead worked great too but thats not the point now is it. As far as clearing a F body hood not going to happen. lol you need quite a bit of space Im not sure what the measurement was that I had but it came to almost 5 inches I think. But I might be wrong about that its been a few years. Thats why I designed my hood (A ram air hood that had a V almost so each M-90 sat under the V part and drew the air from the opening in the ram air.) Its hard to describe but I hope that did it kind of. I liked the look of it, never fabbed it so I couldnt tell you if it works or not but from my measurments it should. But Good luck man. And get some photos when you get started!

 

could a maf even read that much air? Thought it would max out at like 3000 rpm

 

I really don't like being mean...but you forced my hand after wasting my time reading that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cronsformula350
Because Chris from TPIS, told me that advancing the cam, would take the stock torque from 350, to 430 to 450.

If I could gain 100 ft/lbs by just advancing the cam...Did he mention it'll kill off your HP??

I also have the MAF sensor, descreened, and definned,
I'm glad you destroyed your sensor, because that's all you accomplished

a pulley system for about 9 lbs of boost,
Only 9?? Why two superchargers...seriously? That's like running two alternators for 300 Watts of stereo. Totally overkill
If you spend enough to put this together(stock cam no less) you could feed TWO third-world countries, and still have maybe 800HP(Did "Chris from TPIS" give you that number too?)

use this with a huge intercooler I have; it has 3" in/outlets, its 4" thick, 12" tall and 30" long and bar and plate designed good for up to 40 lbs of boost. Then an alcohol injection system; those two together will keep the boost temps cool;
Wow, 40lbs. Good thing your only running 9lb. Ditch the intercooler, alky is more consistant and reliable, as long as you remeber to refill

good for a stock shortblock and safe; Design I am in the process of patenting right now.
Safe...until you open the throttle for the first time. Then you'll have 8 new paperweights where your rods used to be. That is IF you hit your "800HP" goal.

and the hottest outlet temperature is no higher than 175*
I see no possible way that statement makes any sense. You really can't state an outlet temp without any of the other variables

No one else has come up with a design like this,
There is a good reason for that, your design won't work like in your head.

I stopped reading after the last line there. You have proved yourself a fool by that line, and I needed no further convincing. The fact you destroyed your MAF sensor speaks volumes of how much you actually know about fuel injection.

All that by the end of the year. You must be rich and not work, cause my guess is you won't see daylight the rest of the year while your putting this together.

I suggest reading a book(you know, the things made from dead trees that I use to kill spiders). Any book, because it's obvious you haven't read anything about this subject.

I hate to say it, but your design is so full of holes and misinformation, you really need to read a book.

Listen to what BMmonteSS said...he hit it right on the head.


Well, from Bosch's own book, the MAF sensors have a potentiometer, to adjust them for Airflow. I plan on doing quite a few mods during this project, I'm working on the crank pulley setup now, I will build the brackets to use the accesory bracket holes in the cylinder heads, in the front and back of each head and make the plenum's for the blowers on top of each valve cover, then go into the intercooler, then I'll probably use the, cut holes through the battery support trays, like used in the ATI procharger, since the driver side is used in the firebirds, and the passenger side is used in the camaro's, since I had one, I am confident I will have enough room for everything.

These blowers have a 95% efficiency, at 10 psi, and from Eaton's testing, the air temp increase, under boost from 4000RPM to 14,000RPM vary's by only 10*F; another reason why I decided to make this setup work. I understand that many of you, don't think I can make this work well, some do. But I have already built a 650 hp, N/A Pontiac 461CI motor, with a dominator, and it's quite streetable, we've driven the car for 35 minutes, it has the potential of the heads, which flow 320 CFM, at .650 lift, to get into the 9's. I'm not worried about this project, but I will post some pics of this setup, as I'm working on it; I am still working on getting these sportsman II heads on the motor, and piecing it back together.

But, I will be doing a lot of work on setting this car/blower setup to work right, don't worry, I appreciate any help you have given me.

The comment about using the M-62's is stupid. THe m-62's when using two of them will put out 124ci of air; while the M-90'sone only put's out 90.

While the M-90, put's out 1.50 liters of air, the M-62, puts out 1.00 liter of air, which when you use two of them, WOW you get 2.00! Which makes this project a reality. I spoke with Eaton, and they said that the kit's they have designed for the Vortec motors, could have worked better, with a m-112, instead of the m-90.

I know plenty of old timers, with blown motors, and since I know the shop, that builds motors, I have learned a lot from all of them, and I'm confident that I will design something that will work well, and if I have to, I will change my design in between the build; I'll just go back to this post. Any time you have other ideas, I will add them to this design, thanks again, guys, I never meant any, mean comments. I have just learned a bunch from a lot of different people and studied a whole lot too!

 

Subscribing, where's my popcorn? I agree you're overly optimistic about the project. I've only met one engineer with a similar attitude (that I graduated with) who was in charge of our Formula SAE program for a few years and got all of nothing done in that time span. My recommendation is slow down and surf around turbomustangs.com or a similar forum where guys are taking on projects like this quite often. The reason people are bagging on you so much is that you have pointed out several steps to the project that are common knowledge "no-no's" around here and every time someone tries to explain it to you, you back into a corner and proclaim your product will change the world. Humble yourself, you'll learn a lot more without a chip on your shoulder. Good luck with the project.

Tony

 

Cronsformula350,

I would encourage you to rethink the MAF system and look into an aftermarket EFI setup with a MAP. If you want to be different, and you have the brain power to think this thru and confidence in a programmer to get the most out of your stock MAF that will only flow a bit over 700 cfm. I say give it hell and I am with TonyC, where is the popcorn.

I would like to see if someone has a FAST XFI sequentiam system with EGT's in each cylinder. I feel that you can have better control over your engine combo with it over any chip that anyone can burn. And you can be your own programmer. My 2 cents

 

I would have to agree with the fast system comment just because I know from experiance how nice it is to be able to tune your own system on the fly. I am planing on using one with my next car project after the one Im currently on. Anywho once again keep us updated and get some photos up when you start.

 

Well, yeah I understand take my time, I'm just getting the motor back together and running at this point. But When it is all done, it will kick ***, I've done a lot of research on this project.

But there was one thing I didn't mention, in regards to this project, another way of using the superchargers. I could build a box to mount both superchargers on top of my HSR intake, and then run the methanol injection right into the intake, plenum box or build two boxes, one on each side of the HSR, then run the two, into a y, I'll build the flanges, to promote airflow, then y the two into the plenum, then back up to the intake, run the methanol injection into the tube, running into the intake.

I may also use some of the extra 22lb. perhour injectors in the intake tubing, to disperse, more alcohol into the airstream, or more fuel, to richen the air/fuel charge up. This has been done also, I have some different ideas to try out. I appreciate all of your help on this project. I will hopefully have it done soon, I might take a machinist class at the college I'm going to, where then I could make the parts I need; that would speed up this process, and get it done sooner. I would like to try it with my stock cam first though, just to see how it would work then, I'm thinking 550 hp, would be reasonable, but trying makes a difference.

I had my '87 350 IROC-Z on the Mustang II dyno with stock heads, cam, ported intake and freshened up, along with edelbrock headers, descreenede MAF, modified Dual-snorkel Lid, removed Breathers, Edelbrock headers, 3" bullet muffler, dump, and through the stock trans in third, 1:1 ratio, through the stock, 9-bolt 3:27 rear end, it made 364 hp & 410 lbft of torque, with 36* of timing and 47.5 PSI of fuel pressure, TB coolant bypass, 160* thermo, and it was running cool at the time. I just had the ALT. and water pump running on the motor, which helped too. That was the Dyno power, at the wheels.

And my Dad's 650 Horse pontiac motor we built and were in the paper for, should demonstrate, some of my knowledge, I also know, that this and every project has it's trials and tribulations; I'll learn from this one too.

 

Not sure if you have herd this, but work on the street is that those Mustang IIs give fairly bigger #s than dynojets. Not sure if this is true. I got my setup dynoed on a dynojet. For the mods you are posting, those #s seem really high. Kinda too high.

 

What did it run in the 1/4?

I would love to see pics and timeslips of this twin supercharged abortion....I would also suggest bringing a 5 gallon bucket and a broom to the track.

 

Actually, you got that Bass ackwards. That would be about 390-400rwhp on a DJ.

 

FWIW, an M90 will fit under an SS hood on a thirdgen. Barely. With new motor mounts, I doubt it woulda fit, our outlet design was not efficient, as it was, in how we made it in order for it to fit. See attached pics, that's the system my brother and I built a couple years ago. We had it putting out 4, maybe 5 psi max on the stock pulley, and the inside was not in the best shape as far as the vanes and walls, they were nicked up a bit. It also whined, and was generally about as loud as a lowflying aircraft. It could be heard a good 1/2 mile away, in a hilly/wooded area, probably due in part to the intake being on the pressurized side, with a bypass valve (constant pumping). He had about $1000 in it, machining, materials, injectors, new ecm, etc.

However...

As far as what you've got going here, I don't think it's going to happen. I think a lot of people have summed up my thoughts exactly. Sounds like you have ambition, and have possibly done a lot of reading, but it takes more than some reading to accomplish what you're talking, those are some big plans. You're also pretty cocky. You make it sound pretty simple. It's easy to come up with an idea or plan, anyone can do that. But foreseeing things that may go wrong or may not work, ie problems, as someone else mentioned, and having ideas to counter it, it seems you have no regard or even a hint of reality in this case.

I would say come back when you have something tangible, ie pictures of having them mounted and the belt setup done, and running without throwing belts or any other problems, minimum, ... then we'll further discuss.

Instead, we'll probably continue to hear how 'awesome' and 'sweet' its going to be!

 

I live 20 minutes from Route 66 raceway, and have talked to a lot of engine builders, I was offered a job as a cylinder head machinist, and I've talked to a lot of machinists; my GODfather is a machinist, he said he'd help me, make my crank pulley, that's how I'll get more than 5#'s of boost.

I have seen a lot of other guys using different superchargers to make similar gains at the track, they think my idea is possible, I have been planning this for a while. Ideas and plans take some time, I'm working on getting my formula running now, my project is going to be different than others, not on a Z28, I'm not using one, but two, and when I have a different hood which I will, when I am using my HSR intake, the superchargers and flanges are smaller in height slightly, yeah it will take time.

Also l am going to have my MAF sensor on the intake side of the air, not the boost side. I spoke to eaton, and they told me, a m-90 wasn't going to be enough, so I'm going with two m-62's besides the fact that they're the most efficient blowers they make.

I don't think you read all my posts, "what do you think of my twin-M62 super charger project?" I didn't ask, "Please ridicule my plans and dump on them", would I go up to you and say your brothers sucked? No rather, that's pretty cool, mines going too be slightly different using two, sucking air through the inlet side, and the blowers wouldn't be upside down, and the air would be coming from the 5" reverse cowl.

www.cardomain.com/ride/471099

 

Well, if you wanted someone to blow sunshine up your ***, why didn't you say that in the first place.


WOW, that is a really cool idea!!

 

 

I read all you're post(s).

Irrelevent here, but as a fact, it's not upside down as we mounted it.

I'm not saying it's impossible, or that your idea sucks. I woudln't have posted pics and all else, if I was trying to give you that impression. However, you're idea is not original, and it's not revolutionary. It's been tried, and tried by more than you may think. There's probably a reason why everyone isn't running around with dual Mxxx superchargers mounted over the valve covers. I love projects of that sort, and I hope you can pull it off, but my point is, don't count your chicken's before they hatch, talking about how 'sweet' its going to be. Humble yourself a little, heed some of the advise that others are giving, don't be afraid to change your plans and don't be too stubborn and conceited, thinking you're idea is the best (ie, sticking to your plans no matter what, just because they are plans). You'll end up revising things, or doing something over a couple times before it's right, no matter how good your plans are. That's part of being an engineer.

As far as selling kits ... let's focus on getting the first one built, and ironing out all the bugs.

Sorry to rain on you're parade, I think everyone is just trying to hint at reality ... conceptualy, it may be easy, but implementing and working out bugs will be no picnic.

FWIW, I believe you can do it. Just trying to bring you down to earth, you seem to be floating on a cloud.

I'll be watching your progress, if you post it. Good luck.

 

Nail on the head.

You can accomplish what you want with a single intercooled centrifugal charger (ATI) that can make 12-15 lbs of boost and easily grenade your stock engine. Find a used setup and you're done. Spend all the time you've saved by not rigging up this dual setup, searching the junkyards for parts,etc. mowing grass to pay for it. And then mow some more to pay for redoing the bottom end when it blows up (it will, been there done that).

 

I appreciate everyones input, and your pics saturn5, and yours too supertransman, a little contstructive criticism is what we all need, when we have crazy plans, that aren't tried and true right?

I have probably neglected to add in quite a few bits of info, like for the fuel system, I am going to go with what is used in grandnationals a lot, the twin walbro, 255 liter/hour fuel pumps, -8 fuel line at that point, along with 50 lb/hr injectors. I will probably get a better cam when I have this setup running well, after the bugs are sorted out of it. But for when I start it, I will want to save some money. That's why I wanted to try this project, it's cheaper than a procharger setup, there kits have made 550hp, on stock shortblocks. I will build a better shortblock too, after I have the bugs sorted out.

I will also probably wind up going to a FAST fuel injection setup, or something that will work better. I am sorry I counted too many eggs in my basket before they hatched, that's not what I meant. I do know that twin m-62' s will flow 2.00Liters of air per revolution, but that's for later.

I was planning on using the intake bolts, some of them, the head bolts/accessory bolts or header bolts to support these blowers, but that's when I have the time to work on my car with blowers, I'm taking a machining class this semester, so that should help, I'll make flanges, crank pulley, and a few other things I need.

Also check out my site, I have my motor almost back together, I need to put in the radiator(aluminum summit unit) the long tube headers, I was given bad Hooker 2210's ceramic coated units, each one had a problem, today I got the third set that was no good. Then a few other tiny things, and my car will be back to running for now, this blower setup and other things will happen later.

Check out my site at www.cardomain.com/ride/471099

 

Crons, it's time to take your head out of your **** and admit this is the wrong way to go. FAST FI = $2500...HTF is that cheap?

Stop dreaming, listen to the advice being posted, and pay attention. Your wallet will thank you later.

If you choose to build this twin supercharged turd, please refrain from posting until you can post some pics of this installed. It's time to put up or shut.

 

This FORMULA 350 isn't a supercharged TURD, my car is one out of 25, that's what PHS, pontiac historical society society sent me, documentation. I bet you all think I'm some punk, Sorry I'm far from a punk. When I said no one has done something like this, it's true, no one has designed one, like mine, it is different.

I already have scavenged bone yards, have had the superchargers for two years, I have my intercooler, methanol injection and the plan is coming together. I'll also use one of the fuel system pressure regulators, for every lb of boost, in increases the fuel pressure 10 psi, I have had that planned.

I'm not an as*hole, I've already built a 650 horse 461 pontiac, yeah Pontiac.
I've seen guys with stock motors that put out 675hp on mustang II dyno's, something that was mentioned earlier. When this setup is ready to go, I'll also have a rattler absorber on the crank, which will help for sure. LIKE I MENTIONED, when the money is there, I'll build a motor to take more punishment, lunati crank, crower rods, ross pistons, and I'll use program 4-bolt mains. I appreciate all of your conrstructive criticism. When I am started on this project I'll put up some pics, have you looked at my site? And saw my formula it's no 305 turd. Look at page 11, that's the 675 horse pontiac motor I built, with my paps, that could afford it, that motor has over 13K in it.

 

Why'd you destroy a rare (1 of 25) car?

 

See my site @ www.cardomain.com/ride/471099 and you can see that it's not destroyed, I have all the original parts, I am not even reusing the original TPI intake, that's stored too, also the power steering and gear, smog pump, A/C, all the A/C and heater box stuff.

I wouldn't destroy the car, this isn't a "destroy the car" type of project, since this car is rare, so will this project be. I'm not just doing this project to do it, but more to do it well, and show quality, this car is and has been being built by myself to be a show car and show worthy.

I am going to have the blowers flange side, facing the valve covers, the 2-3/4" tubing for the air to be sucked in the blowers will come together, into a plenum on top of the regular plenum, then a flange for the TB will be next, then into the MAF sensor, then into a large filter coming from the middle cowl scoop I'll be using, you can see that on my site also.

From the blower flanges, the 3" tubing will come into a Y, then go into the intercooler 176*f doesn't need to be cooled much, but I decided to make the pistons last, my motors tite, it won't be lunched like others say. I just took a class on rebuilding engines, and know a few things about them too, and this motor is Cherry, the original Marine owner, too so well care of the motor, he did all of his oil changes on the motor on time, and often, I have an 1" of receipts and documents for how well he took care of the car, and it was a texas and california car. It's been clear coated twice, has subframe connectors, interior is clean(see website pics) and I'll keep it clean. After the intercooler, the charge will go into the normal intakes plenum, into the motor.

I did all the wiring in my dad's GTO, and see how clean the interior is in that car, I'll make myne just like that, clean.

If you thought about it, only 21% of f-bodies came with 5.7L motors, so they're rare in a way too. When this project is done, it will be for the gapers(gaping jaws and looks) people that see my dad's GTO are all amazed too so, it's page 11 on my cardomain site, we have people wondering what's what, and why were doing this and that, I'm already used to it.

 

my eyes hurt, they feel like I was looking right into the sun



just build the thing. people always tell me I'm nut's and this or that won't work and when it does the same people don't care. which is fine because I built it for my self not them. I hope you do the same. as you know don't expect tons of hp just that your setup is yours and built your way.

 

Yeah I like your trane of thought, I have a great deal of ideas, and I have already put together a lot of info, from other guys at the track, and learn more than most can understand.

This is like an argument of thought, between a A.S.E mechanic and a gear head. Gear heads will say you can do things, while a A.S.E mechanic will say "no you can't do that , that won't work, it will just screw things up."

I have heard so many people say, that oh that's pretty awesome and I explained the idea to them, and they like it. I haven't had anyone say that, it wouldn't work. After they see what I did with my IROC-Z, page 8 on my cardomain site www.cardomain.com/ride/471099/8 they were surprised, after my first day to the track in my car, after what I did, called tuning. I took the cars entry e.t of 15.1 at 89 mph, down to a 13.81 at 99 mph, pretty damn good, for the first day, with 138K miles on it, and after 11 runs. Then they believed me more, and this was a beater!

 

This just in: for those of you, who don't believe that a stock, from GM motor can't be pushed, one with stock, cast, mahle, hypereuctic pistons, look at the 9 second 88 GTA that's in the Novermber Car Craft. The GTA is using twin turbo's, a good sized intercooler, along with a clever build and has been tuned properly, and he's pushed his pretty far, check it out. I'll be doing the same with my motor. The two-bolt L98 motors have already been to 675 hp, and over 1000 passes, and running low 10's without a hickup. I'll be doing that with mine, when my project is up and running, just thought I'd mention it to you guys..