bvahnee

iTrader: (2)

So after seeing the videos Nelson Racing posted on youtube showing the in's and out's of their "Alien Intake" I decided that is going to be my next "big" project. Just some background, CNC isnt new to me, just programming. I was wondering if anyone has already made renderings or at the very least scanned in some drawings/dimensions of a big block oval port intake. I know its a long shot, but I figure if its out there, I wont let it go to waste. Im pulling the high-rise MPI intake off tomorrow anyways so that I can begin reverse-engineering the intake and simplify what Nelson Racing did. Before the flaming begins, Im not out to put them out of business, its something built by me for me, so relax.

Intake will probably be made of 6061, I cant quite decide yet, I gotta talk to the design guy tomorrow. Milled on a Haas VF-4, programmed with SolidWorks.

AlkyIROC

Sheet metal is the way to go even for a single carb but the average person can't afford or justify a sheet metal intake.

bvahnee

iTrader: (2)

Haha I shouldve been more clear, Im not worried about price. My only obstacle is being able to draw it on the computer in SolidWorks, aside from that the 4 axis CNC machine will take care of the rest. Ive programmed and milled 3-d parts before but just nothing this big.

I figure with the pricing I get for aluminum material cost will be near a grand, maybe less, tooling time is free. So right now I just gotta worry about drawing it. Im in the dark on this one, I know that much.

Oh, and its a fuel injected setup. There will be four runners, all separate pieces, lower intake, and a more simplified version of what Nelson Racing did for the upper. If I could justify it Id have the main programmer work on this for a solid day and he'd probably have a rough sketch in no time, but times are tough. Machine shops all around us are either closed or about to.

Mathius

That all depends on the design and whether or not you're fabricating it yourself and lastly, what materials you're using (and how you're getting them).

If you're gonna mill them out of a huge chunk like the guy above me is describing or use top of the line stainless or pay a shop to design one.. yeah, it's gonna cost a lot.

Mathius

Zak.V

Id be interested in helping you model the part, im a first year mech eng student and could use the practise. Post some pictures and some dimensions and ill give it my best

bvahnee

iTrader: (2)

Id appreciate any help I can get. Im going to take the intake off tomorrow morning, Ill make a sketch with dimensions (as many as possible) with my calipers along with an overall picture and post it here. Thanks

likeyoumeanit

what file type do you need? I could do that in pro e no problem but I don't have access to solidworks.

bvahnee

iTrader: (2)

Im pretty sure any .CAD file or similar will work, SolidWorks is just to draw the part, I use MasterCAM to draw the wire frame for actual machining, I cant draw for crap in that program so its just used to convert my file into G code so I can machine it.

Ive never used Pro E before, how do you like it? From what Ive seen people do and the website it looks pretty powerful, especially for the price. The only program I own for personal use is BobCAD V21 and its REALLY hard to draw 3D parts.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

From using ProE in college, I hated it. It's a fairly frustrating program. Its just difficult to get it to cooperate with you. Granted I dropped out and never got an engineering degree, but 5 years later and I'm giving it another shot. Dealing with ProE again isnt something I'd look forward to.

bvahnee

iTrader: (2)

**I did forget one measurement in the picture, the thickness of the wall inbetween each port, that measurement is 9/16 or .5625".

So heres the quick picture I made with the dimensions. All measurements are inside hole to inside hole, with the exception of the intake ports, which are inside wall to inside wall, I havent figured out the radius yet, Im doing that tomorrow with a machine at the shop.

As Im sure your wondering, Ive decided to keep the lower intake and use that as the "template" for the upper intake. The reason being: I had NO IDEA what the intake looked like until now, and Im kind of shocked. As you see in the pictures its got a really long runner length and direct port location for the injectors. The other reason is that the lower base (also seen in pic) has the provisions for o-rings. So basically, its perfect. I WAS going to take the lower off and design a new one but I think it would be a waste of time, considering its nearly perfect as is. However, rest assured, I want a new upper. Any of you guys willing to have fun designing an upper using the template above (all that needs to be the "same" is the dimensions, EVERYTHING else can be custom,one off) would be great. Keep in mind, its a 4 axis machine doing the milling, the upper can be as crazy or simple as I want. The only catch is that Im going to be reusing the TPI throttle body.

My first idea is to make a sort of "Clam shell", two pieces, the very upper portion shaped like a bowl with the provision for the TB. The lower (on the underside) will be like a flat base that has the runner flanges. I hope that made sense?

Im going to begin making an X Y layout right now in BobCAD and see where that goes. I have to start with a 2D base before I can make a 3D rendering with V21.

EDIT: I just realized I didnt give a measurement between the three holes on each runner, from the bottom two holes to the one at the top. Im going to see if I can work my magic and make a measurement using the verifying tool.

bvahnee

iTrader: (2)

Heres the CAD file of the hole and intake runner layout:

http://FastFreeFileHosting.com/file/...utcad-cad.html

Not that I dont trust my math, but Im going to cut a scrap piece of material tomorrow and see if it lays over (minus the radius on the runner inlet).

Oh, and I calculated the wall thickness in between the holes/runner and the outside edge of the intake: .469" , that doesnt include the wall in between the runners, that is .5625"

Zak.V

ill give her a shot this weekend.

bvahnee

iTrader: (2)

Thanks Zak, Im really anxious to see what comes out.

I used the cad file above and made it a DXF and ran it on the Gerber Profile to make a template to see if the holes and intake ports matched up. I was close, but not perfect. Considering I used a tape measure instead of calipers I say I did pretty good, I was off .060 on each hole, which, obviously, gets worse as the part gets bigger. Im in the process of re-doing the layout with new measurements that were made with calipers and a few other goodies, including a micro-protractor to make damn sure that the two banks are dead nut. I was afraid that there was some sort of angle difference, like 1 or 2 degrees, but it turns out its perfectly centered with each other. I will repost the new cad file when I finish.

Just like to add, I really appreciate the support and kind words from everyone. Thank you.

Edit: ** heres the new layout. It has the all the walls to be built off from to make it easier. http://FastFreeFileHosting.com/file/...ayout-cad.html

Zak.V

Dont get too excited, im no expert at this lol



I cant open your .cad file in solidworks 2010... Save it in a different format?


This is what i can open:

• SolidWorks Files (*.sldprt, *.sldasm, *slddrw),
• Part Files (*.prt, *.sldprt),
• Assembly Files (*.asm, *.sldasm),
• Drawing Files (*.drw, *.slddrw),
• DXF (*.dxf), DWG (*.dwg),
• Adobe Photoshop Files (*.psd),
• Adobe Illustrator Files (*.ai),
• Lib Feat Part (*.lfp, *sldlfp),
• Template (*.prtdot, *.asmdot, *.drwdot),
• Parasolid (*.x_t, *.x_b, *.smt_txt, *xmt_bin),
• IGES (*.igs, *.iges),
• STEP AP203/214 (*.step, *.stp),
• ACIS (*.sat), VDAFS (*.vda),
• VRML (*.wrl), STL (*.stl),
• Catia Graphics (*.cgr),
• ProEngineer Part (*.prt, *.prt.*, *.xpr),
• ProEngineer Assembly (*.asm, *.asm.*, *.xas),
• UGII (*.prt),
• Autodesk Inventor Part (*.ipt),
• Autodesk Assembly (*.iam),
• Solid Edge Part (*.par, *.psm),
• Solid Edge Assembly (*.asm),
• CADKEY (*.prt, *.ckd),
• Add-ins (*.dll),
• IDF (*.emn, *.brd, *.bdf, *idb).

bvahnee

iTrader: (2)

Rehosted as an IGES file: http://FastFreeFileHosting.com/file/...tiges-igs.html

Thats awesome you got 2010, I kind of wish I changed my major so I couldve got my 12 month lease lol. I guess me and my bobcad v21 will have to do!

All joking aside, the file type can stay IGES from now until final product, while I cant machine an IGES file, MasterCam can input it and then make a wireframe with the tooling path all at once, and that, I can mill.

Heres a pic of what the "mid-plate" might look like.



The walls are WAY too big, and I dont know for the life of me how I can make a double wall so that its like .469" thick and perfectly scaled together. Ill figure it out eventually lol. Thats the basic idea though, thats the bottom half, just imagine that under that is the four "legs" and then on top is the clam shell. I swear if anyone can understand that, props.

Zak, no worries man, its good practice. The hard part is done, with that template you can make it whatever shape/size/etc. Go wild lol

Zak.V

Heres what i have so far, i still need to make the mount lip for the top. I dont know much about porting, so i just made the radii 1". I guessed at the profile of the ports based off the pics. overall its 12.5" x 19.5" x 2.5"

heres the file i have http://fastfreefilehosting.com/file/...plate-IGS.html

bvahnee

iTrader: (2)

That looks awesome man, and you were damn close with the radii, I just PM'd you the link for the new file (http://FastFreeFileHosting.com/file/...-iges-igs.html)

Ive been at work for a few hours now and that file above is matched perfectly with the base on the intake. I love having the Gerber to cut out the template, that and having piles of scrap kydex lol. Im sorry if its a pain in the butt to change the radii.

Zak.V

http://fastfreefilehosting.com/file/...plate-IGS.html

bvahnee

iTrader: (2)

The latest one is looking sweet. On monday Im going to machine out a "proto type" based off that IGES file, but on high density sign foam so I wont be waiting for 14 hours

Zak.V

yeah alot cheaper too! ill try to work on the part a bit more, just double check and make sure i have the curve cut out on the proper side of the intake..

bvahnee

iTrader: (2)

Oh crap. I just noticed.

The orientation is, I think, upside down. If you look at the newest file I hosted, the runners/base should rise in that orientation. The file Im looking at right now will technically bolt up, but it would bolt up upside down.

I just opened it up in bobcad to give it a closer look. If you took everything but the flanges and raised everything else up on the Z-axis 2.5", that would be the correct orientation.

Dont sweat it. Ill see if I can mess around with it in bobcad.

Edit: I just found a tool in bobcad under solids/surface modification -> reverse surface. No idea how to use it yet but it sounds like what I need

Zak.V

no sweat its a pretty quick fix

Zak.V

I went back and used your correct port layout. I incorporated cutouts similar to the nelson one around the ports.


http://FastFreeFileHosting.com/file/...plate-IGS.html

bvahnee

iTrader: (2)

Unfortunately I was unable to mill out the prototype today, Im waiting on my iges file to get converted so I can run this on the gerber, not sure what takes so long about importing and exporting, but hey it'll get done.

I got my hands on a copy of solidworks 2004, but I have no idea how to use it. I open the file and it seems to think that it was imported, and then I can modify anything because if I hit delete on one selection the whole thing goes away. Ugh. Zak, I dont know how you do it.

Oh, and I was looking at how the upper and mid would be shaped/go together. I was thinking that maybe we should design it like nelson did, instead of the entire upper having the 180 degree curve, we split the difference to both sides. This was suggested to me by the guy that will be milling it out. So the 90 degree radius will go on the lower half, sort of an extension of the wall thats already on there, and then the upper will have a 90 degree, so they meet up, and we can get that 180 degree "look".

No rush though. If I get that prototype done tomorrow Ill post pics here and see what everyone thinks.

Zak.V

yeah sounds good, ill give the 180 a refresh. I dont really have the time right now to work on it but ill make a push again on the weekend.

what are you trying to do ? the way to look at it is sketch something similar to how you would in paint then use the features to make it 3d. its a lot of foolin around but it comes to you.. slowly (in my case anyways)

i find the learning curve is really steep. Tackle your idea in steps, its a bit slower but usually you end up with what your after.

bvahnee

iTrader: (2)

So heres the official prototype for the mid-plate.









Thats half of it, I was at work til 5 and decided to put off doing the other half until tomorrow morning. Its looking good so far, and I got quotes for material so its moving along

ericjon262

I was thinking this was some kind of dreamer thread, awesome work so far!

bvahnee

iTrader: (2)

Haha thanks ericjon, a dreamer thread this is not. The piece above was made for two reasons, to show you guys here at TGO this is no joke, and two, it will make a killer desk toy for later

All kidding aside, it's moving along. Zak has been a huge help with the design process. If I can get a full prototype program, I'd love to make a "time lapse" vid for the guys here to see what goes into making something like this. It's probably going to take 18 hours to mill it out so that will be fun to watch

ericjon262

Whats your lower intake off of? a boat motor?

bvahnee

iTrader: (2)

The entire engine is from our old boat, a 1995 four winns 240 horizon. Its got forged internals, 330 hp, high rise intake, short style water pump and brackets, and a 4 bolt main to boot. Its perfect for my turbo project because its got 8.0:1 compression, so its hungry for my TA51 Garrett to feed it some boost. For a 454, its a pretty high screamer, I think the redline was just over 6000 rpm.

Zak.V

i really like seeing it in foam, did you manage to get it all milled yet ?

bvahnee

iTrader: (2)

Theres the final product, in foam version. To do that it took about half of what it would cost for the real thing, and its a good reason I started with foam.

The legs need to be lengthened about 2 inches, I had no idea how much the damn fuel rail and distributor get in the way until now. Other than that it looks pretty darn cool looking. Keep in mind, this was done on a machine that was never intended to do 3D work, and considering we had to line it up when we flipped it over, we were as close as you could get, off by maybe 2 thou or so.

ericjon262

I can't wait to see it in aluminum!

RED_DRAGON_85

this is an amazing project!
i'd offer to help because i have lots of solidworks experience as well, but unfortunately i dont have the time to burn.
its got me thinking though
i did once model up a TPI intake.
i was trying to get an idea how difficult it would be to make new runners with a larger bend radius and total diameter.
i still may attack it one day, but the model is on hold for now.

Zak.V

its looking really good

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

That does look really good. Almost looks like a BBC version of a superram

Im a bit late to the thread, but from experience it's easier to reverse engineer something by measuring the important parts and drawing them first, then fill in the rest around them. In this instance it'd be the intake ports, then shape the runners and let the rest of the manifold take its own form

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Looks good. Definately superram like. Should perform well if the runners are large enough to support the flow of most big block heads.

bvahnee

iTrader: (2)

Pocket, if you scroll up a bit youll see some of the first stages of the project which was basically just a bolt hole pattern and a runner pattern. Everything else was just built off that, it helps having a cnc machine to cut templates and stuff to adjust what needs to be done. Ive been following your M90 retro-fit, and its obvious you know a ton about fabrication, did you get it back from the dyno/tuner yet? It sounded mean in that video ! You should start making kits and sell those puppies. Not everyone has the fab skills to do it themself!

I just sent Zak the file for the throttle body bolt pattern. What a pain in the butt that was. I had to steal our QC guy for 10 minutes to use his super expensive tool to measure the holes because of the VERY odd pattern. None of the bolts could be refferenced off each other, which made it a pain.

Oh, and just FYI if anyones wondering, the runners on the lower intake go from the opposite side of the port to the port, so theyre like 6 inches long, on JUST the lower intake. Im not worried about runner length, thats pretty much taken care of. Hard to imagine, but it was a boat engine after all.

bvahnee

iTrader: (2)

Just a small update, I milled out the two inch runners and took a couple pictures with them in place.












as you can see, the side of the intake closest the firewall, is too close to put the upper intake with any kind of height. no problem at all, I took a look at whats in that "hump" thats in my way, its just for the drainage for the rain, Ill cut it up and re-weld it so its a bit narrower.

I think it looks pretty darn cool.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Any idea how much plenum volume you are going to shoot for? Or what cubic inch motor its going on? Looks like possible 3" high plenum wall, you can hit 450 cubic inches of volume which will feed most big blocks you will put under that hood.

May need 4" cowl tho

bvahnee

iTrader: (2)

Its on top of a 454 BBC, will be forced induction through a TA51 turbo. The total "runner length" of JUST the upper is 2.5", I think I have an additional 5 or 6 inches hidden in the lower, I havent measured that just yet. The runners are very very long. With forced induction it "should" be one hell of a monster, but idle to pre-boost Im a bit worried about the volume.

I laughed when you said 4 inch cowl. It would take a 5 or 6 to JUST clear the throttle body/upper intake, its hard to see in the pictures, but if you look at the one from the side, add 2 or 3 inches on top of that, straight across. I think a cowl no matter how big wouldnt fit because of where I need the extra space. Instead of a cowl, Im going to be fabricating one. You ever see the shape of the GT500 mustang hood? It will look like that. Flat at the back like stock, with a huge monsterous bump in the hood where the throttle body will be. Hard to imagine Im sure, but once I get the upper milled out Ill start cutting it up and showin you guys here.

On other news, I just ordered 150 bucks worth of 304SS to fab my headers from. Ill make a seperate thread for that in the next week or so.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Could turn out pretty interesting but you are right. That intake doesnt slope downward towards the front of the nose and the base is alot taller than I could tell in the pics. Anychance to lower it abit?

bvahnee

iTrader: (2)

The problem with lowering it is that it would hit the distributor in the back. Zak and I are planning on making the throttle body angle downward, like in the nelson racing version. Zak is also going to see if we can trim some excess off the back so that MAYBE i could lower it and inch or so. This is why I used foam

Think of it this way though, it will be a 4 or 5 inch cowl, about 12 inches wide and 18 inches long, about half way down the hood. Nothing crazy, just enough to clear the intake.

bvahnee

iTrader: (2)

Zak just sent me the upper plenum and its looking SICK. I just have to figure out how the throttle body will attach and give it an angle at the same time.

Heres a little teaser of another project:





Not only am I able to maintain the booster/MC, but the stock steering shaft as well. More to come in a new thread.

ericjon262

Do I smell a twin turbo big block????

bvahnee

iTrader: (2)

Heres the other piece to the puzzle

ericjon262

Scratch that, 1 BFT.

bvahnee

iTrader: (2)

Haha, exactly. Correct me if Im wrong, but I think its going to be the first of its kind. Retaining stock steering shaft, MC/booster, brake lines, etc, on a big block swap with full tubular headers. Ive seen the turbo done on a BBC swap but not tubular, and it had modified MC/booster setup and a thinner shaft.

Oh, and the nelson racing 3rd gen doesnt count

bvahnee

iTrader: (2)

Ok so Ive been busy with a few things, car related and not so much, but heres a pic of the upper plenum, lower plenum, and runners, in place in nearly the location it will be when done.



The only real work left is to figure out how the throttle body will mount on the front. Im thinking about milling out a piece of aluminum with the bolt pattern, and then milling the sides all seperate, tig weld it together, and throw some bolts on there. I dont know, I still have some planning to do.

Oh, and you can see the passenger + driver side headers coming along, Ill be posting in my other thread once those are together.

85z28kid

iTrader: (7)

Hate to bump old threads but what happened to this project??

Really interested in doing this to my big block someday.