LX_SS

Hey All,

Been a very long time since i've posted on here, been about reading lots of posts over the past 6 months. I have certainly seen a lot of extremely good examples of third gens, lots of other mods that i've taken alot of ideas from.

The story behind my third gen is a interesting one, i originally looked at a trans am when i was 15, it was a red one, and had duct tape all over the a/c lines and heater box (thats all i can remember of it), so i passed on that and waited 8 years. When i was 23 i purchased a white '85 Firebird fitted with a 350/t700 combo, whilst it had rough points most of it checked out, i also took it to a reputable mechanic who deals in rods and muscle cars, got the all clear and that was it so i thought.

Eventually after having the car for a period of 6 months i experienced overheating and attack of the electrical gremlins. I took the 350 out, rebuilt it and refitted it, whilst at that stage i stripped the interior and found a whole lot of problems. Every single wire was twisted and taped without solder from the rhd conversion, whilst removing the floor carpet i found rust holes the size of approx upto 65mm and rust all throughout the firewall.
So i found myself in a dilemma, i wasn't too impressed, nor was i impressed about the mechanics who looked over the vehicle. The issues found could have easily been seen whilst up on a car hoist.

At this stage i decided to repair the damage, replaced all the sections that needed too, redid the firewall to standard and ran into the issue of lack of area for rhd wipers. From here the project went onto the back burner and the car sat still for a few more years to come.

Approximately 9 months ago i came the realization that no matter my passion for cars, have 3 cars for just myself isn't viable since i cant afford to keep them all on the road. So i sold off one of my old torana's, and invested my time back into the Pontiac. Humming and arrrring about what to do with the car, and having remembered a friends ls1 conversion, i decided that the 350 was no longer fitting for my purposes, so i went in route of the LS1, however me being who i am decided not to do things the easy way. Having nothing left of my previous dash (it fell to pieces and was glued/bogged from rhd conversion), not having a working aircon previously , nor heater or and lots of other relays/switches half working, parts being hard to get in australia, It made me choose something a bit radical.

I brought myself a '04 VY SS/Pontiac GTO (Correction), which i used as my donor vehicle with a LS1 + Auto, however i also decided to retain the VY's dashboard and heater/climate control system. To do this with the original firewall(the one that was in the firebird) was not impossible but not ideal, too many things to be fabricated to suit everything. So i removed the firewall from the VY as a donor, which also gives me RHD wipers. The idea in the end became that any new modern parts i can utilize on my firebird will make it more comfy and easier to maintain in the future.
I know alot of people will think this is a sacrilege to do so on a third gen, however if we really think about it, when the rhd conversion happened all those decades ago when the car arrived in Australia it was too late then.

So after many months, Taking many leaps of faith, lots of measurements and compromises, here is where it all stands :

85 Pontiac Firebird
LS1 + 4L60E
VY SS/GTO Firewall
VY/GTO Heater/Climate Control
VY/GTO Dashboard (includes Gauges, Shifter, All Working Features, Airbags removed)
VY/GTO RHD Wiper System
VY/GTO Stereo System
VY/GTO Cooling System
VY/GTO Front And Rear Brakes Including ABS System
Recaro Z32 Seats

Interior will be customized to suit and match the modern theme. All the diagnostics of the VY/GTO will be functional and works with the tech2 system. The car has features like auto turn on headlights, central locking, climate control, tilt and telescopic steering column, 6 stack cd player, cruise control, etc.....

So this is a long term project for me, i have no set date or time i want to complete it, i just want to take my time and do it correctly once and let the firebird rise once again from the ashes. I hope you all enjoy.




What was left more or less from the VY SS/Pontiac GTO


The Old Firewall - As you can see the steering column mount leaves lots to be desired.




New Firewall In


New Dashboard - Firebird Badge on dash (just a template done on 3d printer) - Climate Control System behind dash






Well thats it for the moment, im sure you guys can see other subtle differences in the pictures as well, the front rails perhaps etc..
I'll update this as time goes on but don't expect it to be finished anytime soon. All positive constructive feedback is always a good thing.

Cheers Guys.

LX_SS

Lower Radiator Support From VY/GTO - Radiator - A/C Lines - Thermo Fans - Air Dam (for radiator air flow)

6SIX6

iTrader: (35)

Thats awsome man. Ive never seen a G8 dash donr in a3rd gen. Keep it up and I cant wait to see it done

crafty_z28

Subscribed! That's plain awesome!!

Drkhrse89

iTrader: (1)

Sacrilege my a$$, that is just plain incredible. Great fabrication skills so far. This will be fun to watch.

fatalicshock

This is sweet

flash2042

You still haven't:

akanitro

iTrader: (2)

Definitely subscribed. I love this kind of stuff.

shr00m

iTrader: (2)

Awesome! Do what you can with what you can get!

Kevin D.

lmidden

subscribed

TreeFiddy

Great project! There was a guy in Brissy I think, on here a while ago, fitting a VY dash but without the LS swap. IIRC he got stalled on how to make the gauges work without the VY's computers; you've bypassed that in one bold swoop. Swap the whole dash/firewall/powertrain, love it!

Where are you located?

peterc005

Looks great.

Which city are you in?

86White_T/A305

This should make for a nice clean swap practically plug and play.Wiring the rest of the cars original features like the lights..windows etc to the newer interior controls shouldnt be much issue.Nice fab work on the firewall/dash..looks right at home.Keep us posted and keep taking pics every step of the way.

LX_SS

that was evilstuie, he was doing a car pc tpi setup or something, not sure what ever happened to it, think maybe he got some inspiration or something from my original trial setup of the dash years ago.

Melb.

Sorted a few other items, front wheelbase was out 25mm, so now i've got it to 1-2mm, Without some proper alignment equipment its about the best i can get.

peterc005

Some great ideas and fantastic fabrication there.

How did the dash width compare, putting it into a third-gen?

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Sacrilege? SACRILEGE??? Mods should delete all examples of this word from this thread!

First, the work (if you can call it that) that was done to that car for the RHD is more sacrilege than what you are doing! Heck you are even keeping it somewhat Pontiac in the end

Second...WOW! Great vision, great execution. Way to see your idea and have the kills/guts to make it real. That firewall looks really cool! You seem to have the major mechanical hurdles pretty well handled. Im really interested to see how this comes out. If you can get it all working, and match the door panels up with that dash as well as blend in the new updated theme, you are going to have one VERY sharp car there.

Cant wait to see more! Great job!

J.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Outstanding work.

LX_SS

thanks for the kind words from everyone.

it was a bit of a leap of faith to do it, it can completely ruin the car if not done correctly.
when the firewall was removed from the firebird it was one of those kind of moments where you look and go 'there's no turning back now'.

clearance width wise inside the car is about 2 inches per pillar gap, however once the doors flow into it, it will work out well.

the next step is engine and trans fitment, positioning as well. hoping to get 1-3 inches of movement rearward (from the stock 350 position), so i'll take some more photos then and post up in the next day or so.

here is one with the steering wheel and radio.

peterc005

What are your plans for the cross-member and engine mounts?

I've got a 1988 IROC L98 in many pieces. I thought my project was cool, but then saw yours. Great effort.

I live in Hampton.

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

badass. needs a less bulky steering wheel though. but as of now that shouldnt be a concern.

peterc005

I guess the advantage of doing the brake swap too is that you will end up with 120mm wheels, which should make it a lot easier than trying to find the US-style 120.65mm stud pattern.

Have you looked at what modifications will be required to the stubb axles and what wheel bearings to use?

LX_SS

Stud pattern will remain 120.65, there is not many decent wheels available in the correct offset in 120. Alot of wheels still suit hq/chev.

The rear diff will be commodore lsd, then simply a harrop rear brake upgrade vs-vy.
The front will use standalone hubs, retaining standard gm bearings, with abs rings. From here it will be a slip on rotor, since they are located on the hub rings not studs, the discs will require 1mm drill of each hole. vy calipers are similar to the front c5 caliper conversion as well.

Cross member will house the new steering rack, which is a commodore unit.
Engine and trans was going to relocate rearwards, however after noticing what room is available (2 inches), and requiring 20mm for engineers, the additional clearance just makes the transmission easier to get in and out and on the plus side i dont have to relocate the p/s pump + alternator. So im going to accept the standard engine placement.

Also using VE SS / Pontiac G8 Exhaust Headers. They hug the engine nicely, have factory heatshields and outlet in the right spot, plus for only $40 i cannot say no to 2 very good condition manifolds & cat converters :-)

peterc005

That's full-on.

Will you reverse the rack so use the stock spindles?

LX_SS

The rack on the commodore normally mounts behind the x-member, so instead of it behind located in the same position (we have lower control arm mounts in the way), the rack mounts the same, moves the same directions, just is located in front of the x-member. No major issue. Since i'm not using the old steering box mounts, i will use them to fabricate a new bolt on x brace for the front, which will incorporate a new mount (other part is the front of the x-member) for the steering rack to locate on.

The steering shaft runs over the top of the factory chassis rail , not on the inside like it did originally. It incorporates another universal joint as a result.

I may have to machine up collets to match the tie rods of the commodore to the steering knuckle on the firebird, I have a lathe on hand so thats an easy fab

peterc005

You should think about a tubular cross-member like the bmr unit. Options for both mounting the rack and ls engine mounts.

What happens with the steering geometry ?

LX_SS

All the tubular units are not approved for road use. There is no test data proving they can handle road use. Also the mounting for the racks on the tube front end is incorrect for the rack im using and in the wrong position for rhd.

I already have engine mounts, thats not a problem.

Geometry remains very similar to original, however as its not fitted yet i dont know the exact details

peterc005

Interesting way to do the RHD conversion. Your project probably has the most original engineering ideas for a third gen in Australia.

Even if some of it doesn't work, it's still good to see someone try it. I can see problems with the steering geometry, but you seem to know your stuff.

BlackenedBird

iTrader: (5)

Reminds me of the best LT1 swap back in the early 90s. Member Fatal88, where the guy swapped the entire firewall forward from a 93-97 F-body, with the dash, under his 3rd gen, inner fenders/suspension & all. The hung the 3rd gen fenders on the 4th gen subframe inner structure.



Not trying to take anything away from this Aussie build. It is definately gonna be a great build!

iansane

iTrader: (1)

Impressive work, sir. I applaud your vision.

morrow

keep up the good work sir, looks great...people need to be less narrow minded... its looking beautifull

VAN454

I wondered what had ever happened to this. Looking great, I can't wait to see the finished product. I got my ls1 in and driving a couple of months ago, making mine the first RHD 3rd gen with an ls1 that I know off . But yours is a whole other kettle of fish. I love your work, especially the firewall. One thing though, VE manifolds do hug nice and tight, and they LOOK like they'll fit but on the drivers side (RHD) the outlet sits too close to the lower suspension mount, unless you are doing something different with the front suspension, then disregard. What suburb are you in, I'm in the eastern suburbs of Melbourne, I'd love to get a look at it

lameberlinetta

Someone always steals my cool ideas. Anyways this is the coolest third gen not built yet. Props

peterc005

A while ago there was a yellow Firebird with an LS engine for sale in Sydney.

Can't wait to see this car running though, it looks great. I suspect getting the steering geometry for a Commodore working correctly on a Camaro might be easier said than done, but hope to be proven wrong!

VAN454

there is another guy in victoria doing the same thing right now too, but he's not as far along as you

LX_SS

That would be Vince's t/a, i convinced him to do it , since he had the ls1 and other items. Im only 15 mins down the road from him as well.

I see exactly what your talking about with the ve headers, custom headers are easy enough to fab, i just didnt want to spend $100 on some flanges if i didnt have too. Since the ve headers & cats only set me back $40, the cats are still entirely usable tho. So thats a nice saving.
I'll copy the ve headers pretty much, just change where the outlet is, instead of directly under the last runner, it will continue the back rearward a touch more then down. Not worth modifying the cast iron units, nor can i justify spending the money buying f-body ls1 units and still having to modify.
Also i don't have the steering column issue as i imagine you would, as my column runs over the chassis rail, rather than alongside the rail over the top of the x-member.
Thats the idea anyway, Not worried over the exhaust, thats probably the easiest of fabrication parts.

Which part is your concern ?
Its not a VY/VZ rack, they are far too wide to even fit. 100mm more tierod/tierod.

Capt. P

iTrader: (1)

Subscribed

KR81

Nice looking project man. Wish you were in sydney so I could check it out. Good luck.

LX_SS

Here's a little update, been working on this a bit lately, i wonder how many of you can pickup on whats done. (the steering shafts aren't connected, the pic angle look deceiving)
Also you can see the position of the z32 seats.
The clearance between the heater and trans tunnel is just there, enough for carpet/sound deadening. You don't gain in height much with the tunnel apart from the bellhousing area, the rest tho however gains tremendously in width.
Also i've played with the commodore rack, for rack and pinion steering, very interesting, not quite right, but an extremely close fit, i have another rack lined up that will allow more travel to give a better turning angle and also should be a much nicer response compared to the commodore rack.
Alot of the work that has been done you guys don't get to see, the A-pillar mounts to the firewall have been fabricated, welded in place.
The car also made no noises or rattles at all jacking the car up as much as you can at any corner, with the tops out as well. No engine in place you can jump on the cross member and the most noise you get anywhere in the car is the springs creek.

Maybe you guys will get what i mean but when i jump into it, it doesn't feel anything like a commodore(or pontiac gto in the states), the dash and such even after being in my mates vy ss & adventura, the way this firewall is positioned, with the seats, makes it feel so tight and compact, i know and understand its larger than the commodore but i feel like im in a go-kart/cockpit. Its a very very different and extremely nice feel.

More update to come soon.

Drkhrse89

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the update. I am hoping you continue forward progress and don't give up on the project.

Richboll

This is an interesting build. I'd really like to see it completed. Good Luck with it!

LX_SS

There is no doubt this will be done, when is just a matter of time. You can't rush these things, if you do you run into alot of issues with fitment of items vs how much modifying or fabrication is required to make them fit.

Example is the firewall, its not a simply line up to existing, there is the bottom edge of the windscreen which dictates most of the placement, then your have central location of the vehicle and offsetting to get driver positioning. However with this in mind, if your dash is too low the console will be through the floor, if its pivoted too high, the console is up in the air, then on top of all this, how level is the dash, is it tilted on the incorrect angle.
The list goes on, but it gives you an idea just how much of one item can daisy chain to other items for fitting, eg is the console straight and parallel with the tunnel and vehicle... Its unfortunately not a quick process.

A lot of these types of things you don't get too see and can take days to get just right. Keep in mind, that mostly every new part that is fitted to this vehicle from the vy/gto is unmodified, so the vehicle has had all the fab work done to it. So in the future when you need to purchase new parts, you don't have to modify them to suit.

LX_SS

Ok i promise an update here's a little one, been a tad lazy past couple of days and just finished uni for the year.
So here is the original Camaro seats that came with my car, i'll let you decide if it is safe and satisfactory.



Here is the passenger floor section with the seat bracket mounted. 10mm Mild Steel Plate, It is overkill, however the seat will be ripped out before the plate breaks, also we are lucky in the fact that we mount our seat belts on the floor pan which means we don't have to have our seats and mounting as strong as one that would have a belt mounted to it.



Here is the Z32 seat with my tig welded plates on the front only, rear mounts are unmodified. The fronts are modified only because the original mount is a 90 degree angle and bending will make the rails weaker.



Here they are in the car, close ups of the mounting points.
FL - RL - FR just in case you want to know pics order.



Amount of access room for passengers to get in the rear of the vehicle.



Tilt and clearance of seat in passenger access mode.

LX_SS

Just some more shots as a pair of seats and give you a feel what the transformation is taking like on the interior compared to original.

BlackTopKing

iTrader: (1)

Fantastic and inspiring

FlyDoc

looking good.
Glad to see that I'm not the only one putting a GTO dash in. I started about last February, the car has had to set why we have had to move. looking to get started again in the next few weeks.

midias

That looks amazing keep the updates coming.

TreeFiddy

How on earth are you going to get this registered? I'd think there's enough variation from factory to qualify as a new vehicle, and all the current ADR compliance stuff would apply. I've just recently caught some grief registering mine just due to my Holley and 3" exhaust, illegal in NSW (apparently hmmm) and requiring engineering certs.

LX_SS

Yeah the joys of living in Australia aye, our road rules are vastly so much more restricted compared to anywhere else apart from California on emissions.
The amount of modifications doesn't matter, there is no limit on what you can do so long as its within the rules.
Example : Tubular cross members/control arms etc.. - These are in no form legal to drive with on the roads in Australia, Even if it is fabricated beyond standard cross member/etc... items specifications, the fact is that the units currently on offer by vendors in America have not been tested to the load limits and beyond. There is no testing data for how many g' forces it can handle,+ other details too(engineer only explained it briefly to me). I remember when i was talking to spohn about their front K member, the quality assurance was we use it in 1500HP drag cars, sorry but to me 400m of road is very different than road use and when it came down the crunch, the testing data required isn't available.

This project has been going along every step of the way with a reputable automotive engineer(big firm), his 2 biggest gripes are the Airbag system (has to be removed) and not wanting any notching or modifications (cutting and replacing sections) of the cross member or the chassis rails. Now you also know it is acceptable(if i can get it working correctly) to retrofit the ABS system, this is a tricky one i could explain maybe later if your interested, its to do with weight distribution, suspension setup, brakes,etc...)
Now as to what qualifies this as a different vehicle, well we ain't quite there on the amount of mods list yet, From exterior is standard appearance, you wouldn't pick it from any other.
Also the chassis hasn't been modified apart from the sub frame connectors which are acceptable.
This vehicle, is also being built beyond the standards of when the vehicle was manufactured and the standards set by the conversion in the late 80's.
I only have to comply with the adr's of the vehicles build date, if it was a new vehicle from scratch you would have the dramas your talking about.

The vehicle is already registered, so i'm fact soon as its done i can just drive it, however to be honest do you know what adrs i have to comply with, cause there isn't a great deal.

With your T/A, 1986 model, a holley carb is a big no no and a fail on emissions, it is on any vehicle generally after the 1976(i think it is, around there) emissions rules came in for charcoal canisters etc... i know anything LH Torana and earlier can run holley's legally. So thats instant fail on point 1.

3" exhaust, well there isn't any limit on the size you can run, it could be 4.5" just so long as its not lower than 100mm and doesn't exceed the sound limit which i think was just after the 1976 emissions rules, 97db for pre 1980 and 92db for anything newer.
(its been a while since i looked it up but its around there).

I hope that explains most of it to you treefiddy. If not just let us know and i should hopefully be able to any other questions.

TreeFiddy

Sorry, didn't mean to come across as having a go, if I did. Just curiosity cause compliance issues are just fresh in my mind atm. There's scant info available online as to the exactly legality of particular mods, just that 2-3 page primer on the RTA/RMS website plus people's interpretation of it.

From what I've read, plus the last time I got a car blue slipped, a lot of what is passed/rejected is in the eyes of the particular guy doing the inspection, either blue or pink. In my recent experience, I was 'breaking in' a new rego guy, my previous bloke having retired and closed shop. In over a decade owing this car, the issues above had never been mentioned by anyone. I knew the exhaust thing was rubbish, I've previously read what you posted above - in fact he was saying any exhaust over 2.5" was illegal in NSW.

I pointed out the nearby Commodore on the lift overhead with a 3" and told him to get out the verniers and compare, and after a while he gave up the arguement. As for the Holley, a call to the RTA resulted in 'not a pink slip / safety check issue, just don't let it get into a blue-slip situation'. Basically the mantra I've lived by with this car the whole time I've owned it.

My concern was - I may be wrong but I'm sure I've read before somewhere - anything modded away from factory is considered new design and is subject to the ADR rules of the day, rather than from the time of first compliance. Apparently even a Holley carb requires an engineering certificate You've got engineers on board though, so not a concern (though expensive I bet )

Didn't know that about the tubular suspension components. I've read somewhere about no mods to the crossmember/k-member, but didn't know tubular in general was out. Guess I won't get those Founders rear LCA's after all; though I notice that Pontiworld is selling the Lakewoods.

LX_SS

Sorry Treefiddy, i didn't mean to sound like i was coming across in a that way at all. Just how i list points, my apologies.

Indeed it can be somewhat tedious to get things passed here, however im guess that even the rules differ from NSW to VIC, etc...
Under the basis of what the car is, its a Pontiac Firebird, the exterior is still firebird, the floor pan/chassis is still firebird, the registration purposes stipulate firebird. Whats the difference between my dash and a custom fibreglass ones made in car audio installs etc.. Does that make it qualify as different ? If this car was turned maybe from a firebird into a f340 kit car or something, then i would agree. However i don't see how such a rule can apply to this vehicle, what car would you classify it as ?
I saw a HQ Panelvan, interior converted to a magna dash and doortrims, was very nicely done but is it now a magna ? Just food for thought.

Well an example of partly that rule in practice would be the ls1 transplant, adr's stipulate the engine must not be older than the current vehicles engine (so no 2nd gen v8 in 3rd gen) check, its a newer engine. Second would be that with the newer engine fitted, it must retain all emissions controls of that engine. So i must retain the ls1 charcoal canister, must use cats if there was none fitted previously, etc...
If i was to fit a holley to the ls1, i would be in for a world of trouble due to emissions.

On the vicroads info, the lhd to rhd conversion guildlines only really stipulate that any mods to suspension and steering have to be x-rayed and tested before approval.
This is why the items such as tubular arm's and cross members are a big no no for us.
However that being said i have a set of box lakewood rear arms that seem to pass fine. So not sure how one gets passed over the other.