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Im not really sure where to start, but here we go. Ever since the first time I went to a dirt track race, I always wanted to be able to do it. It looked like fun, win or lose. The track that I have went to since high school just recently started a pure stock class. Looking at the way they had their rules, compared to some other track's, I figured now was my chance to build a car.
Since this was a new class to the track, getting a race ready car wasnt an option. Other tracks limit too much IMO to pure stock class, I.E. automatic only, limiting engine choices to only what was available in that year/model, and not allowing EFI. This pratically makes a full field of 70s camaros and in turn makes a race ready car fairly expensive. I spoke with the track owner and tech man about their pure stock class. Basically they wanted to add an enty level v8 class and by using different engine rules and allowing EFI, a lot of cars in the junkyard can be raced. 2014 they ran 6 races with the new divison and had a fairly good car count for it. Including some third generation camaros that were competetive.
I started looking at different vehicles to build, late 70s nova, 80s G body, etc. Came across a good deal on a 91 RS 305 5 speed that I couldnt pass up. The interior had been hacked, but it ran good and had enough good parts on it that I could easily change my mind and part the car out and make money on. Some of the good parts were sold, others will find their way on to my 88. Win win situation.
Now here is the downside to the entire situation. Even though I have been going to dirt races for years, I know very little about how to build one or make it handle. I have my dad and two real good friends helping me with it, but none of us have even been in the pits before. Never took a lap, so this might get real interesting. We all have always wanted to do it and talked about doing it, I finally decided to stop talking and start doing. Trial by fire. (well hopefully not ever by fire!)
I figured I might as well add pictures and make a build thread. I would appreciate any feedback good or bad. Any tips would be greatly appreciated, like I said we have no experience with building a racecar or getting one to handle. We dont have a lot of time to work on the car, so the progress will be slow. Also are trying to keep a fairly reasonable budget.
We have a lot of tools and a decent shop to do the work, but we lacked a good tube bender. So we figured our best bet would be to start with a roll cage kit from allstar. It fit the rules and we weighed our options. DOM would have been stronger, but an ERW kit won out. Since a kit is not made for the thirdgen camaro, we took some measurements and bought their deluxe kit for an 80s G-body. We modified the kit in places to fit what we thought would work the best and be strongest. There are some things now that I wish we had done differently, but it is solid. A couple of tubes didnt hit right in the node like I wish it had. And I wish the kit had had been longer on the side to move the front bar and rear hoop apart. Again we weighed our resources, cost, and timeframe and made the decision to leave as is.
First off, we cannot run subframe connectors, so that cuts out what we would have used as anchor points. I never have liked the idea of just putting a steel plate stitch welded to the floor pan, so we decided to cut into the rear floor and tie in to the rear subframe. We took some 3x2 x .120 rectangle tubing and tied in. Welding everywhere we could get to.
Then we took a 3/16 steel plate and brought it all together further.
The rear hoop sits directly above the rectangle tubing. It wont punch through and it helps to stiffen the car up. Especially once we stitch weld the sill bar to the body.
Painted the bars that we had in. Still need to add a window bar from the top, down through the window and from that point on the knee bar down to a steel plate on top of the trans tunnel. Plus the small driver's window bars, X bars on the back of the hoop down to the back, and a plate over the driver's side bars. Plan is to get them in this coming weekend.
Our plan right now is to get the car good enough for a shakedown run on feb 28th at a different, similar sized track. By good enough, I mean all of the safety equipment of course, just minus headlight covers, rear trunk pan cover, T-tops covered up, paint, etc. We have a long way to go to make the 28th though. Belts, driveshaft loop, weld doors, cover firewall holes, gauges, etc etc. We may not make it. The track we will be running at has their practice on April 11th. We just wanted to be able to have a shakedown so we dont look like complete idiots being the first time on track.
We are running the 305 as is with the TBI. We have no plans on replacing it this year. We want to learn the suspension side of things first, then depending how it goes, we can build a little stronger engine next winter.
Last edited by 3rdgenmaro; 02-09-2015 at 07:12 AM.
Good luck, these are not the best cars to build a dirt track car out of, first good hit in the front and they are done, and it will happen. The idea behind the steel plate on the floor to weld a cage to is because there is no frame, and floor pans are not strong enough to take much. Oh, they might hold up for a while but they are just not as strong as a frame or steel plate. Your rules may not specify that but they should. This has been learned from experience in the past. It is a blast, best advice I can give you is go at your own pace, don't try to be fastest right out of the box, try to keep a consistent line. The fast guys will get around you but if you are all over the track you just might find yourself in the wall and that ain't no fun. Have fun and good luck.
Thanks. Im doing it mostly for the fun and definetly wont be trying to be the fastest starting out.
Yeah I realize the weakness with the strut cars. I know it is coming, I just hope it isnt early on. I have an 84 shell that we could swap over to if need be, hopefully that wont happen. We wanted to start out with a running/driving car since time was limited and I couldnt find a decent G body that fit the bill. Not at a good price anyways.
Got some more finished up this weekend. Will add pictures later, but we got the window bars in, the rear down bars, and the upper window net mount. Still need to fab up the lower net mount and put some metal over the door bars.
We also pulled the sloppy RS springs out and installed some Moog 5662 fronts, new rear KYB shocks and a new RF KYB strut. Welded up the rearend and got the driveshaft painted white. Need to fab up a wonder bar and a driveshaft loop.
Still got a ways to go and a short time to get there, but we will see how it goes.
Finally going to post pics up from couple weeks back.
Nothing really picture worthy from this weekend. Got the battery mounted behind the driver's seat in the rear seat dip. Fabbed up a tunnel mounted front driveshaft loop. Cleaned up alittle more wiring under the hood and replaced the power steering pump.
Need to get the dash in so we can mount the gauges and switches. From there it is mostly just a long list of little things, with paint being the most time consuming job coming up. Practice is April 11. At this rate, its going to be close.
Glad to see another oval track racer.....My dad and I run pro trucks and pro stock cars on a 3/8" asphalt oval.
Building a couple cars already I will tell to be cautious of what bars you use to build the cage. Know the rules thoroughly in your class and be aware of your weight limits such as....left side weight and rear weight percentages. We built are first car to be safe.....which meant she was a heavy beast to. I suggest going with smaller bars on the passenger for door bars.
Just remember you can always add lead weights to tune the car in. It's much easier to add weight where you NEED it, rather than cut weight that doesn't effect the structure of the car.
What is it with these sanctioning bodies and their hatred of SFCs? Oh but they let you stitch weld things. It took an Act of Congress and many years for them to be OK in some autocross classes. Can you seam weld? It's not like SFCs are that expensive.
I have not asked. It doesnt state you cant or can.
We got a little more finished up this weekend. Got the battery disconnect in and wired up. Driver's side dash and gauges are in. Interior is painted up. Window net mounts are done. Plate over door bars is in.
We did have to cut out the window bars in order to get the dash to fit like we wanted it. Then afterwards we decided a different way would have been better. Live and learn.
Goal right now is to get the body in paint next weekend. Easter weekend get the numbering put on and finish up other details in between. Practice is Apr 11 and I want the car to look decent for it considering it will be the best it ever looks at that point.
With a lot of help from my dad and one of our friends, we got the car ready for paint. Took it to a guy yesterday to shoot it. Nothing special. Just an old dirt car.
Finished up the dash.
Still have a list of things to do this coming weekend, but that list keeps getting smaller.
Getting closer, but still a way to go. Going to be a busy day friday.
Have to weld window bars back in, add tow chains, paint the numbers on, fab a raceiever and fire extinguisher mount, fab a taillight cover and a rear decklid cover. Among a long list of small stuff to check over or do final install on.
Thanks! I like it. Nothing real nice, but looks good in pictures and from a distance. Just an old dirt car anyways.
Well this past weekend went good overall. The original plan was to have my wife hand letter the car, but the paint we got was not going to work, so we had to ditch that effort. Called a local graphics company and going to get some vinyl work done. Might be practicing this week with either no numbers or duct tape numbers, but we will see.
On the good side of things, everything seems to be ready to go. We had some issues the past 2 weeks with the alternator. It finally diagnosed itself after it died. Luckily we had an extra one saved from a couple of cars we have parted out over the years.
Got the window bars welded in and a screen put over it. Got a little bit of overspray on the dash which is aggrevating, but not real noticeable. Seat is in, belts are in, everything is ready to go. Practice is this saturday. Tech inspection starts at 9. Not sure what all they inspect. We are good by the rules, but I have no clue how deep they check into things. I just dont know what I dont know. For example, we are running stock wheels and stock lug studs, which are okay by the rules. But per the rules, we have to run oversized 1" lug nuts. Well with the larger lug nuts, the threads on the stock studs dont stick out of the nut. Just small things like that that I hope nobody fusses over.
Guess we will find out saturday. Already starting to get excited/nervous over it all.
Was a great weekend. Made it through tech inspection easy saturday. Once practice started I took the car out. I was real nervous at first, but that went away once I was on the track. I didnt push it very hard. Each time I came out of a turn I new I should have hit it harder, but for the first time, thats hard to do. It wasnt anything like I thought it would be. Much more grip and more intimidating than I thought. My cousin ran the second and third sessions. I was just slightly faster in our first times out. We talked a lot and wrote down a lot. By the third time out he was able to push the car more and we dropped 2.5 seconds off his lap times. We just werent pushing the car much on the first time out.
Keeping the setup we have right now. Right now the only thing going to make us faster is seat time. We had a ball though and everything went right. Racing this saturday. I just have to push the car and realize there is more grip there than I think. I was letting out way too early in practice. We will see. Im ready to go back. My cousin normally races a motorcyle at elk creek. 6 sec bike running 116 mph in the 1/8. Bone stock 305 on 1/2 mile has him ready to sell the bike. We had a ball and I hate to have to wait for saturday.
Of course we were loading up fixing to leave and we got to witness a reminder as to why we put a lot of work into our cage. UCAR flipped in 4
First race was saturday night. Track was perfect. I used hotlaps to ease my nerves and start pushing the car alitte more.
Not sure exactly what they used for our lineup, but I started inside row 1. 6 cars total. Fell back to fourth fairly quick. I kept getting more and more comfortable with the car and was able to push it harder and harder. Third place guy busted a radiator, so I was in 3rd in a single file restart with about 5 to go. Being directly behind the top two I pushed the car harder and harder and was amazed at how good it done. The little 305 was pulling right with them in the straights, and I was able to see where I was loosing time. I was letting out too early going into the turns.
With 3 to go going into turn 1, the car behind me had a run on the inside, I didnt see her and combining her pushing up some and me coming down some she caught me in the door. We seperated coming out of turn 2 and remained green. For some reason I couldnt get the car back into second gear. Had to get going down the backstretch in third.
Getting hit though was probably the best thing to happen all night for me driving wise. Those last two laps, I was pushing the car much harder and I was running a higher line. According to the lap times my crew as taking, I was running just a little off the leaders.
I ended up fourth and got to get out on the front stretch and interview. It was a great ending for the first night out.
Felt a lot more comfortable in the car and with that experience I am more confident. Cant wait to do it again. Got to check the car over real good this week. Need to see what happened with second gear. Maybe it was nothing, Im not sure, but need to check. Might have just been me. First, third, and reverse is fine. I dont see how the hit we got would have affected second.
Car did get a little hot at the end. Honestly Im not sure how hot it was when I was running, I wasnt focused on that, but when we pulled in on the front and shut it off it was at 230. Not hot enough to hurt anything, but hotter then I want. Air dam is in place. I read in some other places that may have to slow the water pump down to prevent cavitating. Might grab a set of underdrive pulleys and see how that works.
Awesome time. Even though I was fourth out of 6, it meant a lot.
Sweet build!!
I see alot of similarities in my build, I'm putting together a 3rd gen for my local track but in mini stock so I'm going through the same learning curve trying to figure out the handling aspect of these camaros on dirt, and the 2.5 I'm using seems to keep up to the stangs quite well!!
For me, no on the windshield. But yes on the decklid. I had planned on putting the stock decklid and spoiler on, but uncertain on that right now. For one, I don't have a ton of time, two we are already easily over the weight limit without obvious cheap and easy ways of cutting more. Pure sheet metal wouldn't be very heavy, but the factory decklid would look better.
At this point, it aint what is holding us back. But it is something that might get done down the road as the build progresses.
My cousin just bought an 83 5 speed 302 mustang to build for the same class. The cage kit comes in tomorrow. Hopefully will have his on the track by the end of June. His will be painted similar. Black car with a ford blue cage and numbering. I have already started joking with him since he was worried about the 302 keeping up. I told him a lot of mustang guys would cry if they heard that a lowly 305, GMs junk engine, would outrun ford's beloved 302. Its going to be fun and I think will help the class.
Looks good 4cylinderdirt. You should post more on it.
Holly cow. That guy flipped what,7 times? Your Mother is prob worried sick about you....... I used to know a old timer that raced on dirt all through the 60s. used hundreds of sbc blocks. Before he passed,(old age) during my rebuild of my 350, he gave me so much crap talking smack about chevy. He blew so many up i guess that he hated em... but deep down i could see the eager man in him wanting to help build/race again. Looks cool/fun!! great job on your 1st dirt car!
Yeah 6 or 7 times. Those FWD cars are more prone to flipping. RR hub comes loose.
It is definitely a lot of fun. Thanks! It aint much, but I learned a lot building this one, I don't have a ton of money in it, Im not that far behind the leaders for as little seat time as I have, and Im having a ton of fun.
Racing again this coming weekend. No changes except for pulleys. Car got alittle hotter than I would like, so going to see if the bandaid fix helps or not. I had a set of underdrive pulleys on my 88 (which I never could notice), so Im going to swap them around and see if that helps. I know that the stock pumps can cavitate at higher rpms which can cause cooling issues. I don't know if it will at 4k or not, but worth a shot. Car got to 220 during the race and heat soaked up to 230 right after shutting it off. Started pushing water out of the overflow.
Needed regular pulleys back on my 88 anyways, so we will see how it does. Air dam is intact and it should be getting plenty of air flow at speed, so that's why I'm guessing on the pump causing the issue. I'll find out soon enough.
We were canceled on the card last week due to being last on the list and it being a big event night with the Renegades of Dirt Modified Touring Series. Which they were right, the show went late. We would have been taking the track for our race at about 12:30.
Im fired up and ready for this weekend. And we may have the mustang ready for a shakedown.
Good Job, If I would have saw this thread earlier I would have tried to talk you out of cars, and to race where the $$$MONEY$$$ is.. Go-KARTS.. just kidding, not really! karting has bigger pay outs. And a lot cheaper for someone like myself learning the inerworkings of building on a 100 motor and screwing up when R&D go wrong..
I didn't know tracks allowed 3rdgens, I thought they were "Ban'd". You should definetly check up on the rules (sanctioning body) they are running. If its the "tracks own rules" your good now, but could be out to lunch if they closed or someone else started running the track. (Some are Leased)
Have you had the car on scales yet? % and weight transfer are big setup factors in karting, I would think the same would apply to cars to an extent, until the shocks (variable) come into play. Do they check your tires? IE durometer, or the winners tires. They don't really check your car thougholy until you win.. then you can bet they will break out the fine tooth comb.
I would bet that the top teams running are prepping their tires. (putting chemicals in them) to add bite or soften them up, depending on what the track conditions are.
Do you have any stagger in your tires? they look like they are the same size. it will help slow weight transfer, and turn better.
If you want recommendations on prep, I can steer you to a guy that can help. Their is a lot that goes into having a good car. good luck,
karts ussually have % like, 45-47% nose, 56-58 % left, 60(+-)% cross, -3 rf camber +.05 lf camber, 1.5" stagger on front 1"rear.
when I say karts are where the money is, they have a race called The Insaine One... everyyear.. $50,000 to win!!!
Several tracks around here allow them. Some are gear more towards the 2nd gen camaro, but the track Ive been running at is more open to prevent a field full of 2nd gen camaros.
No it hasnt been scaled. It has been working pretty good so far, but I dont have the time or the resources at this point. Doing it for fun. We will see how it goes from there.
Yes, been running some stagger. 225/70r15 left, 235/70r15 right
Wow, thats some big money. Ive heard that karts always get good counts. Never watched one yet but several tracks around here.
Do they check the Duro on your Tires? I always hear its all about tires, tires, tires, They have some preps that are undetectable if they do a (sniffer test) don't know what that is.. but Southern Comfort by Earl Mewhorter has a prep called Purple that adds bite, but dosen't drop your durometer. their are others also. Don't really know much about racing cars. but Id bet youd see gains. they are also some treatments like "Goat Pee" Dynosmallcams sells, it as Gold prep.. but it would really drop the duro, good for a wet slick track. but once put in a set, that's all they would be good for. >Might be to soft for a car. >> IDK!..... Yeah, have a lot of tracks in the Carolinas. probably 8 tracks within a hour from me. keep us updated, Been running this Predator class, 100 Harbor freight motor, spec tires. 10 entry 100% payback. its grown to one of the larger classes.. usually 10 maybe 20 on a good night. Try an find someone that would let you scale your car if you can, and do a little research on tire prep. Id bet youd see some gains.
The guy in the video was pushing like a dump truck. That is the reason I suggest getting it scaled. if your numbers are far off. it cost more not to. That an you might still feel it Monday morning. here is a race during my first year. I just bought the kart from a guy and ran it with out setting it up for me.
can you adjust the height of the wheels with the struts you have? in karting when you turn in, we adjust the spindle heights on the front so weight can be released from the LR and transferred to the RF so the Kart will rotate threw the corner. then load LR back up to drive off the corner.
DO you know what kind of camber setting your running? Or what kind of Caster? To be honest id probably have to think about that for alittle while to be able to even adjust it, if I even could. But you gain camber (+-) with caster through turning the steering wheel. (forza 4 says its at 5.0*)
only reason I keep mentioning karts is I know its applicable to karts on dirt, but not 100% on if what Im saying is accurate with cars. You probably already know this stuff. But sometimes people at the track your racing against wont be just handing over tips unless you ask the right questions.
No I cant adjust the wheel height with the struts. I have the maximum camber I can get in the stock mounts. Caster is maxed out as well. Don't have enough seat time to tell a difference in minor changes yet anyways. Just slowly getting into it, not trying to change a lot of stuff.
Several of the guys in this class have been very helpful. Good group.
Well for anybody curious, second season is about to get under way. Putting a fuel cell in the car now. Well, the second car. I out ran my experience in the first one. I'll post pictures in a bit. In short, I cut a tire down and didnt realize it. Felt completely different then on asphalt and I didnt recogonize it. Needless to say it didnt turn going into turn 3 on the big half mile. Was actually pretty lucky, car didnt flip and I wasnt hurt. Bought a hans the week after though! Should have before.
New car is an 84 z28 that I parted out years ago. Swapped almost everything from the 91 to the 84 and was back on track last august with the new car. Im hooked. Ive got a lot of learning to do, but its been a blast.
Yep! Guy that was there that night looked at it and said, "I think that will pull out" Either he didn't look too good or didn't realize it was a unibody. But honestly, I hit so hard a frame car would have been rough too. It buckled the floor pan all the way across the car. Not sure if a framed car would have absorbed as much of the impact either. That may have been another reason I wasn't hurt. I always heard those big 1/2 miles were hard on motors and that if you ever wrecked the chances of totaling one was higher. Well I didn't mess around, when I wreck I total them lol. I was impressed at the wrecker crew. Put it right on the trailer.
Fun though aint it! Good thing is they are cheap. But when this car is gone, I'll probably move up to a metric chassis. This one will get me some seat time if I don't overdrive my experience again.
Just a little update. I just finished my 6th race of the year. Went from just riding in the back on the first race to pushing myself and the car more and more. Actually won my first heat race and finished 3rd in the main this past weekend. The car seems to handle pretty good for the basic setup I have in it. (Thanks Dean). With the L03 I have to keep up on the high side to maintain some momentum, but Im having a ball! 3 races left this season. Some rumors about rule changes, so my plan is to finish the season as is and get ready for next year.
Good way to end the season. Everything just worked out perfect and I was able to start outside row 1. Car was hooked up and I was able to run the high side and keep my momentum up. Won my heat race, then won the main.
Great job!!! Congratulations. You built the car and got out there and raced. You made improvements to the car and your driving style and have the positive results to show for it. Not many of the TGO community race circle track or any other series that requires you to compete on a weekly basis. It is a lot of work just to make it to the track every week. It is a lot of fun though and not that expensive if you can stay out of trouble.
I hope you continue with it next year. Keep us posted.
I hadn't updated this much at all, but figured I would now. Car #2 is done. Was running 3rd and guy in 4th couldn't stand to be behind me. He has a faster car, but the way the track was, he couldn't get around me. He tried to run it in hard into turn 1 and slammed me up into the wall. Race Director said he had a flat right front. If that's the case he should have known the car didn't feel right. Either way, car was rusted so bad I'm surprised it made it as many races as it did. 27 races on this car. 1 win, 3 2nds, and 10 top 5s. Good enough for me with the stock 305.
02-09-2015, 06:39 AM
I used to know a old timer that raced on dirt all through the 60s. used hundreds of sbc blocks. Before he passed,(old age) during my rebuild of my 350, he gave me so much crap talking smack about chevy. He blew so many up i guess that he hated em... but deep down i could see the eager man in him wanting to help build/race again. Looks cool/fun!! great job on your 1st dirt car!
