dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

So my car has gone thru a lot of changes over the years. Most recently it got a mini tub and I moded the rear trunk area to house a fuel cell so I could shave my gas door.

Due to these reasons I wanted to install a 4 point to tighten the hacked up rear.

Issue is that in the future I would like to drive at least 2 people around with me, so I need to keep the back seats.

I have the 4 point and bars purchased already.

Any ideas on tieing up the rear with the roll bar but still keeping the back seats in a safe way?

I will already have to figure something out for the rear belts since the roll up retracktor was mounted on the old wheel tub. Not a big deal, just saying I am OK with the fab work. Just don't have any ideas of how to use the tubes I have to tie it all together.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Any hoop in the back seat area is death to a back seat passenger in an accident. You'll have to keep the chassis strengthening behind the rear seat, or under the car.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Correct, this is why I am thinking of cutting the top of the main hoop off and welding it to 1/8" plates formed and welded to the tubs themself. Sort of like a mini main hoop. Then maybe add rear legs if needed. I mean I have the bars so no added cost there.

of course the car will have sfc as well. Extra bars can be used to tie in other areas to the outer sfc as well.

thoughts?

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

It would help to see pictures of what you did. Not sure what you cut out of the car that is making you worried.

I can tell you that you are walking a very fine line of ruining the car with your mods.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Old shot when I finished the back.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Red line shows bar I am thinking of adding. Plus plates over tubs.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Why? My Jeep has a full bar/cage. My passengers often whack their heads on it getting in and out. 2017 and factory equipment.

-- Joe

scooter

iTrader: (11)

Someone I know lost a friend to a roll cage in his car driving without a helmet.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

No padding? Seat belt?

I read about this often, but never in the hundreds of thousands of jeeps involved in collisions daily.

-- Joe

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Not gonna lie, anesthes brings up a good point....

I just want the back of the car to be strong since I modded so much of it.

I am willing to do the fab work, just want to feel like I am doing the right thing.

I ride a motorcycle and plan to bring my kids on that (once I have kids), so there is certain risk I am OK with. I plan to drop in an LS3 (stock) into this car and go to shows, maybe auto-X someday. But that's about it. Commuter car mostly. Just lots of custom stuff on my three season ride.

I prefer the normal location of the roll bar, no cross bar, and keep the back seat. Knowing it will only be used to take (future) kids to shows. Nothing else.

Shoulder belts for the rear, padded bars (of course), plus no cross bar. Doesn't seem that far from the rear seat of a Jeep... Hmmm....

I don't need to decide any time soon, but by spring would be great. Hope to keep the convo going and get some other opinions in here.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

That's like being baffled why somebody can't put a 4x8 plywood in their Camaro because you put them in your truck all the time.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Not really. Whats the difference in a roll bar in the passenger area of a wrangler vs a camaro?






Mine is a 4 door like the red one.

Heck, sometimes when I hit corners hard enough my passengers bounce off the bar.

-- Joe

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

You are f'ing up your car. And it is snowballing into something worse and worse as you continue to go down this path.

My advice is take that silly tank out and repair the car. Then enjoy the drive to the car shows with the kids.

scooter

iTrader: (11)

I don't know all the details, but I think it was unpadded. The jeep one appears to be padded from the manufacturer, so that is OK. It is also OEM, not something that someone added aftermarket and carries the liability individually, unlike the OEM. You can say it will never happen, you can install padding and you can have sign a waiver, but you're still liable in the end and someone may sue the pants off you. Sadly, this is the line of thought you have to take this day and age

scooter

iTrader: (11)

I don't think the same here, but IMO it is better to not try and dual purpose a "race car". Either build it for racing, not grocery getting, or leave it alone and take the family out in it.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

First, let's not argue the case of Jeep being safe. That's silly. Second, I don't think you have proper perspective for how violent an accident can be.

Regarding cages in a Camaro, Cages legal for racing (which is why people do this) will locate the bar close to the occupant's head with the assumption that the occupant is wearing a helmet. In other words, incidental contact may happen. The roof line of the Camaro constrains the height of the hoop so that it ends up being pretty low. And the rules don't take into account rear passengers, in fact they use that space to build out the cage. A rear passenger is going to get face & head crushed when their body moves forward. If you still don't believe me then you just need to sit in a caged Camaro and then your understanding will be opened. And if you say, "Why not do it this way instead?" the answer is because it doesn't meet safety guidelines to protect front occupants during a roll over.

Now this guy doesn't care about rules so he has freedom to do whatever he wants.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

1. I am not taking the fuel cell out. I like the low cost of the sumped tank, ease of connection and foam baffles for auto-x in the future. The tank also costs $100. I didn't modify my car to accommodate the cell over night. I put a LOT of thought in to what I did and I am confident in the design. And frankly I find it a bit annoying of you to call some of my work "silly" because you think one thing or another.

2. I agree Jeeps and Camaros are different, way different. My install would not be OEM and not have gone thru crash testing and all that. I am a mechanical engineer that works for a well known company. I am aware of how much testing goes into consumer products. That being said, I am still not 100% on board with the idea of a bar in the rear, behind your head, being very dangerous to a seated and seat belted passenger. Now the practicality of the bar being there can be disputed. Rear visibility is a concern for me since the bar would cross over some of the useful viewing area. Maybe a solid rod from left to right would do the trick and work just as well to strengthen up the rear when combined with SFC and some extra tie ins.

3. The car is "dual purpose" the same way you can get ice cream in a F-450. 99% of the time it is really good at work, but that 1% of the time you take it out with your mom, it is fine for that too. Plus, some of the fun of driving to shows is driving something a bit strange and crazy. If I want to get there in complete comfort then I will take my 2013 V6 Camaro. People don't cut holes in there hood of a BB root powered Bel-Air because it "makes sense" from a practicality stand point. It's cool. I have had this car for 16 years, you better believe I am making something cool, not just another polished up IROC with a stealth ram or something...

Sorry for ranting on. I know this thread could lead to long posts like this.

I am not even sure if I am going to have kids yet! Ha ha ha

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

You moved the fuel tank further back and increased polar moment of inertia. The car would handle better with a plastic 4th gen tank in stock location. Not to mention smell better after leaving the gas station.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Also, keep in mind a vertical hoop is for rollover protection. You don't need a hoop if you just want to brace the cargo area. Locations rearward of axle & suspension mounts don't add much value other than supporting body panels and the rear crash structure.

There is a structural member that spans between the spring pockets. I don't know if you cut into it but if you did then that needs attention. That brace is where people tend to tie in the rear struts of a roll bar.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

QwkTrip: Noted that I moved the fuel tank back slightly increasing my polar moment of inertia. Guess when I auto X someday I will do it with a 1/2 tank of gas to help offset this... To be honest, I will cruise around in the car 1000 times more often than auto X. I don't even know where I can do that sort of thing. I don't know anyone personally that does. Just seems like it would be fun.
Not sure why you think there will be a smell after leaving a station. I had my cell actually in the trunk for years and drove to work with the car like that. I never spill a drop and never smelled the gas. Not even a little. The opening to the cell is air tight. It gets vented via the rollover valve.

As for the strength to the cargo area. That is my main concern. I basically cut out the entire trunk behind the rear seats and between the spring pockets. I will add a bar there to span from tub to tub. Just below the top of the rear seats. I also need to fab a way to lock the seats back since the striker that was there is now gone due to the minitub.

I hacked up the rear back rest a bit when I was a teenager. Maybe I can buy a re-cover, or have an upholstery shop fab something up.

Guess I can use the rest of the tubes from the 4 point to add tie ins to the SFCs.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

15 years LEO and accident reconstruction.

Here is the illustration out of the NHRA rulebook for a 6 pt bar. He wants a 4 pt.




He just seems to want the hoop, and rear bars. Looking at the picture, I'm not really seeing an opportunity for the driver or passenger in the front seat to hit the hoop.

I'll concede that the crossbar could be an issue for passengers in the rear seat if they don't have shoulder restraints.

He wants to modify the cage anyway, so conforming to NHRA or IHRA standards is not needed. If he is just looking for a cage or bar to add rigidity to the car, he can route it so that passengers don't smash their heads on it in an impact. If he's looking for IHRA/NHRA/whatever compliance, then perhaps he is out of luck.

My point was that, factory vehicles do come with bars/cages, and it can be routed in a way that it's not dangerous on impact. The wrangler comparison is reasonable because it's a passenger vehicle, and the bar is in the passenger area.

Most of the guys I see on the street just have a hoop, and it's typically in convertibles. These are not race cars that will pass tech.

To be fair, most of our members that claim 8 and 9 second ET's also don't have cars that would pass tech for 8 or 9 seconds, yet they seem to have time slips. I have not quite figured that one out. That doesn't fly up here where Dennis and I live.

That fuel tank is illegal though, both in Mass and NH.

-- Joe

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Why is the fuel tank illegal? It is outside the car and vents outside the car.

Please be specific.

Please note, none of the pics show the gas tank. What you see is the trunk and a trap door.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

"(4) The fuel tank or approved fuel container is not secured to the body or chassis or is located in a position that does meet the manufacturer’s specifications; or"

Can't move the fuel tank. NH and Mass are very strict on this, because guys in the 80s and 90s were bolting fuel cells in the trunk and in an accident bad stuff happened.

So both states drafted legislature that the fuel tank location cannot be changed. This should be picked up during your annual inspection, but if you got stopped by DOT they would gig you for it too.

I probably wouldn't allow a vehicle to continue operating simply because if you crashed and burned to death I wouldn't wanna be the cop that let you go. That's career ending.

-- Joe

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Current topic matter is rear seat passengers, not front. The hoop ends up being located at the front corner of the rear seat cushions. A rear passenger can easily collide with the vertical portion, and top if they are tall enough. And even worse, the rear struts go right where the person's head wants to be when sitting in the seat. You'll see what I mean if you sit in the back of a thirdgen with a cage.

Regarding front seat, the hoop is supposed to be within a few inches of the head. Factory seat belts allow for a lot of movement of a person's body in an auto collision. The seats themselves have a lot of spring and movement. I have a cage in my car but I can only pass tech spec by rolling the seat all the way back. When I drive I have the seat quite a bit further forward and reason why is that I don't want my head to contact the hoop during an accident on the street. I don't have a race car, I just have a fast street car that requires a cage at the track.

Engineer with healthy respect for conservation of momentum and other ouchy things.

This is the message everyone needs to listen to and we shouldn't have to say more.....

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

So the tank is supposed to not be attached to the car? OK. Mine isn't. It is trapped in a cage I built for the cell. I then bolt the cage to the car. I don't have the cell bolted to the trunk directly. It is suspended in a steel cage, just like they do in NASCAR.
Old pic during construction of the cage.


As for original location, I am maybe a few inches off. Good thing the third gen Camaro police don't swing by my place too often. But seriously, I think you are blowing this issue a bit out of proportion. The cell is held very well and is maybe 4" max away from where it was stock.

Furthermore I go to shows and see TONS of cars with current inspection stickers that have cells, many of which are under the hood or in the trunk of something like a 69 Camaro. I had a cell for 5 years before I started this build and never, not once, had anyone even say or mention a word about it. And back then it was mounted THRU the trunk 1/2 in and 1/2 out of the trunk. It was a crazy dangerous setup that I was happy to improve upon. But the idea that cops are going to notice, care, have a clue or ever think there is an issue is baseless in my eyes. And if it is not, good thing it isn't your car. I am 100% fine with it. Way safer than when I ride my motorcycle where I am literally hugging/sitting on the gas tank.

Then you mention career ending decisions that hypothetical cops are making...

What!?

I am on board voicing concerns, but this is out there. Cops don't know the first thing about a 27 year old car's original gas tank location. Lucky if they know what a Camaro is...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I'm not debating how well built, or the functionality of the tank. It looks fantastic.

All I said was it's illegal. The law is black and white. If I saw it, i'd probably tow the vehicle. The next 6 cops might not even notice. The law says the tank can't be moved to a location not specified by the OE. An inspection station, or the dealership would be able to verify if the tank is in the stock location, retained by stock style mounts/straps.

I don't agree with the law, as in a lot of cases these installs are safer than stock. But for every 9 guys who do it like you, some jackass has an outboard fuel tank bungee strapped to his trunk.

Yes, I've seen people with fuel cells too, removed converters, smog pumps, etc. Just because it got a sticker doesn't mean it's not illegal. We all know at least 1 shop that ignores most of that stuff.


Anyhow, I looked at some more pictures of thirdgens, and I'm inclined to agree with QwkTrip, most of the ones I saw would be an issue for rear seat passengers. I saw one or two (a blue one if I recall on the forum) that looked like it wouldn't be an issue but it doesn't even come close to meeting the tech requirements of sanctioned tracks.

I don't have a bar in my car, but mainly because the side bars would be an issue for me. As it is i'm against the door.

-- Joe

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Street cars usually have removable side bars. The bar swings out when installed, or can be unbolted and removed completely. Basically it is a 4 point system on the street and a 5 or 6 point system at the track (depending whether they use a bar on passenger side).

I figured if I am carrying around a 4 point all the time then I might as well be reaping the benefits of the 6 point for chassis strengthening. So I have a permanent bar down low by seat bottoms to make a 6 point "street cage", and a set of removable bars up high for the track. The upper swing-out bars are stored in the basement except for once or twice a year.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

In terms of things we do to our cars that are technically illegal... I 100% agree. Just about every single person on this forumn, or any automotive forum does technically illegal things to their car.

there are laws about changing the sound of your car. Guess how many people give an f about that? 0.

I haven't seen a smog plump in a third gen in 15 years. Cats, haha, those are the first thing to go.

qwick: nice bars. Do you let people sit in the back?

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

No, I don't. And I purposefully removed the seat belt latches from the floor to enforce that protocol. (I left the shoulder belt in place because it looks better.)

Getting in the back of my car looks like a scene from Mission Impossible where the guy is spinning and contorting his body to avoid lasers. The rear seat won't fold down anymore so that tells you how cramped it is with all the bars back there.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I would ditch the roll bar since it sounds like you want to have a rear passenger in the future. If you just want to tighten up the rear you could take a cue from Ford and install an "X" brace across the sheet metal behind the rear seats and again on the big hump area between the wheels above the gas tank. The ends would be welded to the subframe and you just stitch weld it to the sheet metal in between. It would also be really easy to fabricate a B pillar brace that was removable. You could look into that. I have a B pillar brace that is an inch from the backside of front seats, I don't see it being a problem for a seatbelted passenger but I still don't anybody back there.

scooter

iTrader: (11)

Not true at all, you're not allowed to make it too loud, not change the sound

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Technically you are not allowed to install a replacement exhaust for the purpose of making it louder.

"No person shall operate a motor vehicle on any way which motor vehicle is equipped (1) with a muffler from which the baffle plates, screens or other original internal parts have been removed and not replaced; or (2) with an exhaust system which has been modified in a manner which will amplify or increase the noise emitted by the exhaust."

Soooo. If you replaced your exhaust with a flowmaster for "more performance" 9 out of 10 cops wouldn't mind. The 10th might think you have a hole in your muffler and write you for defective equipment lol.

But if you cut the muffler off just to be cool, you get gonged.



Mass, where he lives (and I work), is very strict.

NH, where I live, allows you to modify vehicles that are 20 years old or older. We have very friendly 'hot rod' legislation. But relocating fuel tanks is a big no-no lol.

-- Joe

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

Joe,
Off topic but while you are citing law and past experiences, what about windshield wipers? I made my cowl flat but kept the wipers but I've seen lots of guys with street driven cars and no wipers.

scooter

iTrader: (11)

I think ALL states have a dB limit for all vehicles though, no?

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

OK, the purpose of this thread has gone WAY WAY WAY off course. Final thoughts on off topic stuff from me.

People modify cars, they make them loud as hell in MA, NH, everywhere. Period. I had my car be loud as all hell in the past with straight pipes and glass packs. Got nervous by cops since they would stare at me.... Then give me the thumbs up as I drove by!! Zero concern over a cop having an issue with sound. My LS3 and SS pipes will not be loud so even less concern there for this build.

Modified gas tanks need the prerequisite of knowing the OEM gas tank location. Risk I am clearly SUPER willing to take. Next topic...

4 point will be left out. I will look into other bracing forms for the rear.

To be completely frank, if you post on this forum you should know that people CLEARLY don't pay attention to the laws you are posting. 100% on board with knowing of the laws, but you have to be blind or willfully ignorant to think that anyone cares about them. Look at almost any thread about exhaust, fabrication, power adders, etc... These laws are not taken into account, not even a little. And at least I have never once herd of a person getting a ticket, citation, failure to get an inspection, nothing... Been on here since 05... Just saying, IMHO you are portraying a reality in yours posts that simply doesn't exist.

Back on topic:
Tibo - Not sure I understand your suggestion. Have any images to clear things up?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

90/7a lists wipers as being an item to be inspected, and that section gives authority to the registrar to require these items be in good working order. The courts basically say the registrar and it's agents (inspection stations, police officers) can reject a vehicle if the listed equipment is faulty, defective, or missing. So basically, if it came with wipers it needs to have them.

540 CMR further states:

"(d) Windshield Wiper(s). Test for proper operation. If the vehicle was equipped with two wipers, as furnished by the manufacturer, both must be maintained in good working order. Wiper blades must properly contact the windshield and, be of the same length as those furnished as original equipment. The rubber elements shall be free from damage or tears."

In NH the law specifically says you have to have wipers that remove moisture, snow, etc and must be bladed and operated by a switch inside the passenger area in reach of the operator. That seems to imply to me that you can modify your wipers in NH, but not in Mass.


-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Motorcycles yes, not always cars.

I forget the cutoff date, but older bikes it's like 140db, newer bikes 90.

I'm obviously a big fan of hot rods and performance, but I often remind people in their little Honda's and 305 powered Camaro's with missing mufflers; that if a 2017 Corvette can make over 600hp and be relatively quite, there is no reason for a 150hp rotbox to be heard from the next county over

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

We have the exact same problem - you never hear about people getting cited, towed, etc, and all I see is people getting cited, towed, etc. Mind you, mostly idiots in imports being idiots.

As far as the bracing goes, you can definitely do a lot, and even hide some bracing under the interior plastics. I have both BMR and MAC subframe connectors on my car and it's quite stiff. If you ever travel up 93 to the border you are welcome to swing by and have a beer.

-- Joe

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

Ford uses them in the Mustangs, some of them. I'm not a Mustang guy so I don't know if they are really do anything or they were more along the lines of their shaker hoods on the 2000s mach 1's that ford said had no effect until 80mph.




Of course you could use rectangular tubing and porbably still have the seat all the way up.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Very cool Tibo. I will incorporate some sort of X brace in the rear over the tank area.

When the time comes I will draw up some ideas and post them in a new thread to get all your opinions. I don't want to hurt visibility but I could care less about trunk space. Should be able to fab something cool back there.

Back when I wanted Air-Ride I thought I would use the back seat area for the air tank. Now that I am doing coil overs (R) and weight jacks (F), keeping the rear seats seems like an OK idea.

I saw a blue camaro in an old Super Chevy that had just covered its mini tubs in carpet. Looked OK. Not good, but OK.

I hope to sort out most of the interior "stuff" over the winter.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

When you get close to doing this, it might not hurt to ask VE Truck's opinion of what and how to brace the rear more.