Vortex_89rs

I am confused. I have yet to see a 4 cylinder Camaro anywhere. Yet, in the Camaro White Book, every year 4 cyls were produced, they had higher production numbers than any other model. Anyone know what gives?

Vman

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1969 Camaro Sport Coupe
383, 700R4, leather, everything black but the lights

Previous owner of an 89 RS Camaro
2.8L V6, 700R4

spud

There were/are 4 cyl camaro's and firebirds. They were produced from 82 to 85 or 86. My FB is an original 4 cyl car. The motor was an Pontiac Iron Duke, Yes GM put pontiac motors in chevy's. The motors were esentially pontiac 302's with out one bank of cyl's. They had 151ci. and max HP was 92, with 132 ft lbs of tq. Find oue and your insurance doesn't change from any other 4cyl car. Mine is about $15 a month for liability. You can't beat that, Well atleast around here.

Later
John

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82 Firebird,355,Cam 224/234, .466/.488,TH350 Tranny,650 HolleyDP,Hooker Headers(I.E. POS) Manual steering
Best 8th et 8.62@80mph.
NEW for 01
A 408,dart iron eagle heads,street dominator intake, 750 SD,cam 229/239, .497/.520, Also a big hole in the hood.
Shooting for 12's.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

I've seen at least 20 of them in salvage yards. The most memorable was a mint 83 Camaro. It had perfect paint, perfect body, no options whatsoever, it had the non-sport mirrors, no A/C, no power anything. It had a 30 day tag in the window and the "as-is" paperwork in the glove box, and a blown 2.5 under the hood. Most I've seen have been similar, really nice conditin, but with a blown engine. The only engine GM offered thats worse than the 2.5 is the 2.8.

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Drew
The lone Thirdgenner of the Apocalypse
predatorman@hotmail.com
My Website
87 Iroc
91 Formula 14.3@98mph
91 RS Convertible
91 Firebird V6FOR SALE!
92 S10FOR SALE!
98 Grand Am GT

jason86/2.8

2.8 a bad engine? I think not. I've saw a lot of 2.8's w/ well over 200k on them and still going strong!

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Red 1986 SC, 2.8L, rebuilt 700R4, 3.42 Posi, t-tops, 136K miles and counting, K&N air filters w/ removed air baffles, hopefully more to come!

Jason E

Yet another comment from Drew I will snicker at....tell my friend with the 220k mile 2.5 S10 how much they stink. Or how about my old driving instructor with the 187k 2.5 Skyhawk?

Vortex, the reason why there are so many 4 cylinder Camaros in the White Book?? Basically, its because a V6 was an option on a 4 cylinder car.

To explain better, look at it this way. Lets say 50,000 Z28s were produced in '86. Of those, 30,000 had the IROC package. Effectively, this means only 20,000 "Z28 only" cars were produced. This same reasoning explains why there are inflated 4 cyl #s.

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Jason E
"The Cruiser"
'89 Camaro RS 2.8
Hypertech chip/K&N filters/Accel 8.8 wires, Accel Supercoil/RapidFires
Eclipse CD and 100x4 amp/Boston plates and 6x9s
Alpine Alarm, Keyless Entry
"It's for sale"

"The Driver"
'95 Grand Am SE 3.1 Coupe
No mods yet...

I'm the only third genner who's daily driver is faster than their third gen!

89RagTopRS

What Camaro White Book are you reading? Mine says its always the lowest number.

1982
4cyl 21,802
V6 69,777
V8 98,168

1983
4cyl 9,926
V6 54,332
V8 90,123

I saw one in the junk yard once. Somebody drove that car for 190,000 miles

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1989 Camaro Convertible
dark silver w/black top
305tbi, auto, all stock
posi
Check out Phil's Rice Boy Page

Drew

iTrader: (58)

There are always exceptions to the mileage issue, but the fact remains that the 2.5 and 2.8 and 3.1 are all junk motors. None have enough power to haul a thirdgen with any authority. The 305TBI is just as bad but at least it gets better gas mileage and has a few things that can be modified to make it faster. Buying a L4 or V6 thirdgen is like pulling out a gun and shooting yourself in the foot.

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Drew
The lone Thirdgenner of the Apocalypse
predatorman@hotmail.com
My Website
87 Iroc
91 Formula 14.3@98mph
91 RS Convertible
91 Firebird V6Sold
92 S10FOR SALE!
98 Grand Am GT

Stormshadow GTA

The 2.8 was a good motor.but my friend at the gm dealership said when you try to rebuild them the blocks allways cracked when you torque the bolts down

Mike-88CamaroTBI

Drew
You may be a moderator, but you are at least 50% ignorant to spout misinformed opinions about TBI cars.
Do i have a vested interest in helping to be a voice of reason in an otherwise ignorant mass of people on Thridge.org becuase I own a TBI car? Oh hell yeah I do.
Allright drew lets talk numbers since that is all you will basically understand.

Stock 1988 LB9 Auto vs Stock 1988 LO3 Auto ...

88 IROC A4 LO3 5.0 (305) V8 TBI
CR=9.3:1 HP=170@4000 TQ=255@2400
5spdrear=3.08 ATrear=2.73
88 IROC A4 LB9 5.0 (305) V8 TPI
CR=9.3:1 HP=195@4000 TQ=295@2800
5spdrear=3.23 ATrear=2.73

A whopping 20HP and 40ftlbTQ differnece.

Oh my god, i feel so cheated!

Now, lets see was it a level playing field
other than the intake, computer, and fuel mgmt system? Well ...

every 88/89 TPI car i have seen has had a different exhaust manifold (sort of log shaped vs TBI's puny old 4 downturned tubes not to mention a larger Ypipe and different cat converter mountings). Even you attest to the fact that some factory exhaust are less restrictive.

The TPI cars had a different head than TBI cars. All 87-92 TPI LB9 cars had casting 14101081 heads. 87-91 TBI cars got the 14102187 Swirl Port Head which has a large vane in the middle of the intake tract to reduce flow and induce swirl (brilliant GM!)
except for a few TBI cars that got 10159553casting heads.

Oh and the computer also comes into play with a more aggressive advance curve and a different static advance of 0* for TBI and +4* for TPI.

Drew, it is possible maybe that you are opinionated only. Maybe you are really well versed and knew all these facts and more. but basically what I see in your post above is at best an intelligent man repeating an ignorant opinion.


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1988 Camaro Sport Coupe305TBI-4spdAOD-2.73open in "bought stock" condition. That'll change if it stays around here much longer

Drew

iTrader: (58)

TBI supporters all talk the same talk, but none of them ever prove that TBI can do jack. I'm sorry you bought an inferior car, but the fact is that you did. In the used thirdgen market you can find V6's, TBI V8's, and TPI V8's all in the same price range. To buy a TBI car when you can find a L98 car for a little more money in a little worse condition is ludicrous. No person that knows anythign about thirdgens would ever buy a V6 or L03 over an L98 unless they wanted to a) save money, b) save insurance costs, or c) they aren't concerned with performance. I've owned an LG4, an L03, an LH0, and two L98's. I've driven even more covering just about every engine combo that was available in these cars. From that experiance I can tell you that the V6 and TBI cars are on about the same power level in stock form. The LB9 is a better package than the L03 and LH0 but its still nothing compared to the L98. Yes I'm opinionated, but thats what this board is about. My opinions are based in my own experiance, till you've experianced more than a 88 base model with a 305 I suggest you don't question my opinion. The numbers dont show you the seat of the pants aspect, driving the cars does. Modding the cars brings out a completely different beast, and to keep the comparison valid you have to apply the same mods to each car. For that reason its never better to start with an underdog.

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Drew
The lone Thirdgenner of the Apocalypse
predatorman@hotmail.com
My Website
87 Iroc
91 Formula 14.3@98mph
91 RS Convertible
91 Firebird V6Sold
92 S10FOR SALE!
98 Grand Am GT

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Here's the thirdgen pyramid from a unbiased educated stand point.
SD L98
SD LB9 5spd MAF L98
SD LB9 auto MAF LB9 5spd L69 5spd
MAF LB9 auto LG4 5spd L69 auto L03 5spd
LG4 auto L03 auto LH0 5spd LH0 auto LU5 auto
LB8 auto LB8 5spd
Iron Duke and early 2.8's are down here somewhere.

When I go thirdgen shopping (usually twice a week) here are the ones I look for.
SD L98s, SD LB9 5spds, MAF L98s, L69s, and LG4's.
The ones that I immeadiately turn around and walk away from, are... everything else. I've made exceptions based on price, based on condition, and based on my needs in a car.


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Drew
The lone Thirdgenner of the Apocalypse
predatorman@hotmail.com
My Website
87 Iroc
91 Formula 14.3@98mph
91 RS Convertible
91 Firebird V6Sold
92 S10FOR SALE!
98 Grand Am GT

[This message has been edited by Drew (edited February 15, 2001).]

Pino91Formula

This is why i hate this boared sometimes , because the wrong people moderated it , first of , Drew , i think you are the wrong person for this section , you'v even stated on your own page , that before you got your first camaro you didnt know anything about f-bodies let alone a thirdgen, you even stated you wanted a mustang . So for you to all of a sudden over maybe the what past 4 or so years to become a expert is just stupid. , I'v loved these cars since i was about 6 years old , that about twenty years now , and even i dont think i know everything about them , but then again i love all firebirds fro 67 to NOW. for you to state that everything other than a l98 or a lb9 are usless just proves that you dont really care about these cars other wanting to be different and cool . you know iv tried to see you views , but yes the 4banger was a bad idea , but to say the 6cylinders and tbi cars are useless is being blind and dumb . i'v had them all or driven them all within the last 10 years now , and you know what , all thirdgen power plant where week compared to what you could get in the 60' and 70' and finally they remebered how to do it right in 93 and on , and look at it now they kill it when they get it right . so yes this board is about opinionated people and what they think , but it makes me not want to be on this board when there are people who think they are the all knowing when it comes to these cars .

[This message has been edited by Pino91Formula (edited February 15, 2001).]

CHCKLS

guys who beat up on each other driving the same damn car are usually mustang drivers. It's sad to see someone else with the same passion for these cars, regardless of "how big is your motor?", beat up another Camaro owner. Sad indeed.

CHCKLS

BTW,
I own both. A V6 and a V8 and I am biased a bit towards the V8 just because it's a convertible, not because it has a bigger engine. Other than that I love them both equally.

SlowCamaro88SC

2.8 '88 - I own.... slowest, fun car though
'86 305 TPI IROC - I own not bad, quick enuf.
'92 RS 305 TBI - I've driven b4. Slow, faster than my 2.8
'87 IROC 350 TPI - Quick, runs out of juice above 5500, needs a motor freshening.
'87 GTA 350 TPI - Crazy fast. modded too quick 4 me.

I drive the 2.8 daily yeah it's slow, but it gets good gas mileage and I still like it. The '86 is my guzzler good enuf not be. Drew don't be so damn opinionated, like whatever anyone else says is crap.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

The fact is that I moderate this board because I contribute regularly. I donate my time and my resources everytime I come in here and answer a question. If you have a problem with the way I do things than go above me, or do something better. Believe it or not some people do value my opinion, while its somewhat biased its also honest. I honestly wouldn't buy a L03 or V6 thirdgen unless there was something about it that made up for the handicap under the hood. They can be fun cars, and sometimes the price can be low enough to make them worthwhile, but they aren't even in the same ballpark as the Tuned Port cars.

As more time passes I learn more about these cars, I never said I know everything, in fact I stated "covering just about every engine combo that was available in these cars" pointing out that I don't know everything in this very thread. Truth be told Pino, you don't like me and I don't like you. You've posted things I've questioned and I've posted things you've questioned. That balance keeps us both inline, I'm sorry that you don't like that I know as much as I do about these cars. Maybe you consider it as competition, maybe I **** you off cause I don't sugar coat my opinions, honestly, I don't care. I'm here to speak my opinion and everyone that visits can do the same as long as it doesn't pose a problem with the board.

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Drew
The lone Thirdgenner of the Apocalypse
predatorman@hotmail.com
My Website
87 Iroc
91 Formula 14.3@98mph
91 RS Convertible
91 Firebird V6Sold
92 S10FOR SALE!
98 Grand Am GT

Vortex_89rs

Well, this is getting a bit off topic. Thanks to Jason E for answering my question - I had no idea that the V6 was optional. But in the White Book, it lists Berlinetta V6 cars in a different class. So, could you get a normal base coupe with a 4, then upgrade to a 6, or did all 6's come in Berlinettas? I figure that you just get a base coupe with a 4 and upgrade it since the production numbers were so high.
As to all the other hoopla on this thread, I would like to say that I had an 89 RS with a V6. It was, for the most part, unmodded, except for K&N filters and big plug wires. Everything that I replaced on it was replaced with parts comparible to stock parts. When I sold it, it had around 189k on it, and had never been rebuilt. It wasn't the most dependable car, but when it ran, it ran very well. I raced quite often in it, and there wasn't a 305, TPI or TBI, that could hang with it off the line (this is in my town, I am sure it would be different somewhere else, so don't flame me for that). Sure, usually the 8's would pass me around 70-85 - one didn't even catch me - but it was a hellified running car, and I don't think that anyone should base their opinions on one or two experiences. Overall, I couldn't really care what engine is under the hood of an f-body. Just because a Camaro/Firebird/Trans Am doesn't have a high performance, big inch, tire squeeling, pavement burning engine doesn't mean it is not an f-body.

Vman

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1969 Camaro Sport Coupe
383, 700R4, leather, everything black but the lights

Previous owner of an 89 RS Camaro
2.8L V6, 700R4

Jason E

Drew,

You may have the right to your own opinion, but you have no right to trash someone elses car. We are all on here for the same reason, and nothing is more annoying than a fellow third genner informing someone their engine is "junk." I have seen more 2.8s make 200k than I have V8s. And quite frankly Drew, I shop third gens more than you do. Just because it doesn't pull the car with the "authority" you feel is necessary doesn't automatically equate it as junk.

If you have nothing constructive to say, leave it off. Just because you are a moderator does not give you the right to insult someone else's vehicle. Insulting another third gen enthusiast is childish. This thread wouldn't have gone nearly this long if you didn't insist on insulting others.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

See thats a perfect example of misinterpreting what I'm saying. When I say that a 2.5 or 2.8 is a junk engine I'm not saying that every car with a 2.5 or 2.8 is a junk car. For all intents and purposes the car is basically the same regardless of what engine it has. However Camaro's and Firebird's are intended to be driven hard. When you put the heat on a 2.5 or a 2.8 hauling a 3400lb car its not going to last very long. Religious maintenance doesn't hurt either. You can research any topic you like and you'll find people on both sides of every debate.

Regardless of everything else, its my opinion, don't waste your time trying to change it.

For anyone that owns a 2.5, 2.8, 3.1, or 5.0, and can't handle one persons opinions posted on a web board, I suggest you dont read anything on this board.

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Drew
The lone Thirdgenner of the Apocalypse
predatorman@hotmail.com
My Website
87 Iroc
91 Formula 14.3@98mph
91 RS Convertible
91 Firebird V6Sold
92 S10FOR SALE!
98 Grand Am GT

Basett Racing

The use of the words "all" and "ever" on this topic is a little inaccurate. NJ SPEEDER's 305 TBI w/ the stock peanut cam is faster than your Formula 350, and my mildly modded L03(see sig)waxes 305 TPI's, L69's and LG4's everytime I go to the track. Now, I'm not saying that I think TBI is better, and I'm not really a "TBI supporter", it just happens that I bought a nice, clean, one owner, woman driven 89 RS with a 26,000 mile engine for $2200. Like you said, sometimes a killer price makes it worth it to buy an inferior car, which is what I did. I even fully agree with your thirgen pyramid. I don't care what you say about TBI cars, but ease up us TBI guys , because we work hard to make our underdog cars perform better. Hell, its fun to be the underdog sometimes, I love to watch IROC, Formula and T/A owner's faces at the the track when they see under the hood of my RS

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82 Z28 350, Ported #882 Heads, Performer RPM cam and intake, hedman headers,650 Demon carb,
Trans: Turbo 350 w/ 4000 stall -- Rearend 7.5 w/ Richmond 4.10's, Auburn Minispool
Best ET: 12.52@107.2
Future plans: Dart headed, Roller cammed 383 in early '01


89 RS, L03 305, Hypertech Chip,cat delete, Dynomax exhaust,K&N open element Filter,160 stat, MSD coil --Trans:700R4 Corvette Servo -- Rearend: 7.5 GM 3.42 w/ posi-lock
New Best ET: 14.91 @92.9
Bassett Racing
Mid Atlantic F Body -82 Z28 Page

[This message has been edited by Basett Racing (edited February 15, 2001).]

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Well said. I don't doubt there are TBI cars that can run better than my stock times... I do doubt there are any out there that can drive 1,000 miles to the track, and run those times stock with bald tires, a 180* tstat, and in show condition, and then turn around and drive 1,000 miles home.

Everyones gotta do their own thing, I'm not going to change my opinion and most people here aren't going have their opinion changed by me.

------------------
Drew
The lone Thirdgenner of the Apocalypse
predatorman@hotmail.com
My Website
87 Iroc
91 Formula 14.3@98mph
91 RS Convertible
91 Firebird V6Sold
92 S10FOR SALE!
98 Grand Am GT

Drew

iTrader: (58)

The original intent of this thread has been addressed and its gone far enough off topic. In the interest in preventing a flame war I'm locking this thread. If anyone would like to continue the debate, you can head to http://www.nethirdgen.org click on the message board link then the flame board link and fire away. Also if anyone has anything they'd like to direct at me, my email is predatorman@hotmail.com

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Drew
The lone Thirdgenner of the Apocalypse
predatorman@hotmail.com
My Website
87 Iroc
91 Formula 14.3@98mph
91 RS Convertible
91 Firebird V6Sold
92 S10FOR SALE!
98 Grand Am GT