If you take a car back to the condition it was in the day it rolled off the assembly line you restored it.

If you do anything not listed in the above sentence then you have resto-modded it. I don't care how much you like it better this way, or if it is how they should have done it in the first place, its resto-modded.

 

He changed the color (white to orange) AND modded the engine. That is what I just said & you Quoted me like you were correcting me?

 

after all who wants a nice looking slow camaro
ya they look nice...but slow is slow. and 2nd place sucks....

 

Can we stop the arguing about this one car? It looks nice, was fixed up and sold for a good amount. End of story.

Someone mentioned that adding BC/CC to one of these cars is incorrect. That is incorrect. BC/CC became standard in 1986. There were more years of BC/CC than not for the 3rd gens.

Also, it was mentioned that these cars have "no go". If you compare them to the LS1 based cars or the newer 5th gens, then you are correct. The 3rd gens had plenty of go in the 80s compared to everything else. If you do some research, Drew posted a magazine listing of the "muscle" cars of the 60s and early 70s and their 1/4 mile times. The 3rd gens were in line with the older muscle cars. Everybody from that generation remembers how great they were because the performance went way down afterwards. The 80s was the return to performance and it's only gotten better since.

 

Not all thirdgens are ridiculously slow, it just so happens that MOST were V6, or low output 305 cars. Even when you get down to just the 350 TPI cars not all of them came with decent gearing. Take a L98 or LB9/5spd car with good gearing, and they're mid-low 14 second cars, easily in line with the classic muscle cars, most of the LT1 cars, and most of the 5.0 Mustangs. Thirdgens get a really bad rap because of the multitudes of slow 305's that people just assume are fully loaded 350 cars.

The slow average thirdgens run the 1/4 in the mid-16 to 17 second range. The fastest run low 14's. It doesn't seem like much but it's a huge difference. More then the difference between a top of the line thirdgen and a stock LS1.

 

I wasn't trying to correct you, i was agreeing with you. I dislike people using the term "Restoring" to describe dropping in a LS1 into a third gen (Or some such nonsense).

 

Ah, OK. I just didn't see a or or anything.

 

Most people in public have not ridden in a thirdgen long enough to really understand these cars.

Best handling cars for the timeframe and even better handling than stock 4 gen camaros/firebirds.

Most people that have ridden in thirdgens are beat too hell with worn out suspension.

These cars are great "CRUISING" cars with some power.

As mentioned previously, from the mid 70's to the mid 80's power in all american cars was weak and finally "OPENED UP" in the late 80's.

Everyone that has rode or driven my car is amazed on how smooth it is and the decent power it has. And it only has an LG4!!

Wife even drove it who is not a car person and loved it!!

As for originality versus restoration, there is many levels on that.

I had a friend who was restoring a 70' Superbee and for it to be perfect it had to have the date coded spark plug wires and it took him 2 years to find it at $800 for the set.

Lets just enjoy these fine cars when the carmakers tried hard to find power and performance during the restriction years.

Just my $0.02, clean, non rusted straight V8 cars will go up soon.

Here is a pic of my better half crusing in the Z28!

 

I'd love a great looking slow car. not everyone drives like their hair is on fire. Some of us are too old for that crap

 

I wish people would stop forgetting the above. Our cars had more difficult times to deal with than now and run on technology from 25 years ago or more, but they also look and handle better than most new cars while having reasonable weight. We also had many levels of engines varying in power while new cars have about one or two and usually both are powerful. Yet the top models produce numbers that are still respectable today; 330-345 TQ, about 6 second 0-60 times, decent MPG, low-mid 14's, and the L98 TQ is more fun for around town cruising or low speed stoplight races than an LSX. They were considered fast for their time and would have destroyed most 60's/70's musclecars. They'd have also annihilated them in handling, braking, aerodynamics, and build quality.....yes, build quality. I like them alot too, but those original era cars started rusting out in about 5 years if left outside back then and they were uncomfortable. Even when being designed, alot of details went into Thirds to make them something extraordinary for their day. When I first came here over a decade ago we had about 5,000 Members, (many very knowledgable) TPI was still being figured out, and factory cars didn't have 400HP stock. As I learned and moved up, I realized then that we had some of the best tech on the net, Corvette owners would come here to learn, and alot of people seemed to value their rides regardless of trim/power, even though they were newer, more common, and cheaper in those days. Now that things have advanced more, alot of people seem to see todays tech and hold those cars with higher regard just because they're faster. They want them as fast as new cars and cheaper than where they're currently at. Time re-adds value and you pay more after a certain point. If a car with flat out speed potential is your concern, find an LS1 F-Body u can stand looking at, put a little work in, and go fast for cheap. I'm not opposed to it because it makes for less torn up Third Gens, which I hold in higher regard. Our cars are all-around fun cruisers capable of being made to do anything great that you ask of them though. It's all how much you want to spend and how much work you wanna do.

Also, some people on this board are too negative and sometimes focus on dumb stereotypes that most of the general public aren't even aware of. If anything, most people remember these cars fondly as being the popular iconic cars of the 80's. When you drive around or show a mint Third Gen, there is nothing but compliments and admiration thrown your way. Sometimes it's even surprising because you tend to think that would usually happen to the stuff from about 40 years ago, since our cars are kind of in an inbetween stage, but people from all walks really appreciate them. All enthusiast cars go through a time when they are cheap and get neglected then become very valuable. It happened to all past musclecars and has been happening to Thirds slowly for years. The value of a mint L98 car has changed alot in the last 10 years, and even the lower models seem to be going for a little more. Alot of the automotive world seems to recognize that Thirds were cool and fun cars that are getting more desirable, but many owners want to try to keep them in a rut so they can afford to have 5 to play with. Well, it doesn't work that way when you want respect. Years ago when I had more time to be here I didn't tolerate blatant negativity towards our cars and would edit it out of posts. Other car boards use this tactic and choose to show a proud image to it's readers and members. Maybe we should go back to that? When I saw magazine articles spouting off nonsense about our cars I would e-mail them and address it, even challenge and try to teach them about the cars. Alot of automotive writers are often uneducated cowards that print mistakes/opinions as facts and would rarely answer, but it didn't stop me from showing them an opposing view through experience instead of what they might have heard. The same should be done by those that are enthusiasts of these cars in any similar situation. Automotive value starts with a great/fun/popular car, but to keep it going it has to be protected and guarded by those who care for them, especially as they age. When you look down upon something you invite others to do so, and the same when you look up to something. I've changed people's opinions about these cars before and it often didn't take alot of work. Show some pride for your cars and what they are no matter the condition and do your best to treat them with respect. Others will take notice and it becomes a domino effect. Long live the Third Gens and those that appreciate them!

 

I totally agree!

 

I have put years of hard work into my thirdgen and enjoy the hell out of it. It's gotten lots of positive attention on the streets and at the few car shows I've attended. I always try to make a good impression for all 3rd gens and their owners. I've responded to several people on other message boards that use the term "turd gen" and refute the idea that they are somehow inferior to any other generation of car. In these current days when the 5th gen and many other cars are being ragged on for their weight, it's nice to point to the 3rd gen being the lightest of all generations. To me, they are perfect. They look amazing and are so much fun to drive.

 

I will say this...I think when the economy improves, and people let go of their wallets a little bit, these cars will begin to command more money. They continue to get rarer every day, and they are a great platform to leave stock or modify.

I know I am one of those people that see more value in these cars than others. I have invested a lot of time and money in my mini third-gen collection over the past several years, between the complete restoration of my RS and recent purchases this year of my IROC and Trans Am. I bought a near-flawless, 21,000 mile '88 IROC t-top 350 rolling on original rubber for $12,500. All I needed to do to enjoy it 100% was add 1 lb of freon to it and replace the original tires. There is a small coolant leak from the intake that will need to be addressed in the Spring. Other than that, it performs and looks new and I feel I got a steal.

My Trans Am, needing paint, an A/C compressor, a radio and some slight interior freshening I purchased for only $3,000 with 31,000 miles on it, in 100% original condition with a TPI 305, rear discs and posi. When I am 100% done with it, I will still have under $10,000 in it, and feel it will have been money very well spent. For less than a new Hyundai, I can enjoy a mildly collectible (down the road anyway) classic American muscle car with great handling, great style and enough oomph to push me down the road fairly well. It will be a stock restoration aside from a '92 era Pontiac CD player I just won on eBay (iPod jack added to it and all!!!), an '86-correct hood bird, and a potential swap of the 15" turbo wheels for 16" charcoal GTA-style wheels (correct for late '86 WS6 cars, although mine is not a WS6).

I feel I got a steal on both. Yet, I am positive there are people on here who would flat refuse to pay even 5 digits for my IROC (I told the previous owner point-blank, when I could see her hesitation that I might lowball her, that I know the car is worth at least $10,000...I refused to rip off a widow), nor would they pay $3,000 for a solid Trans Am that needs paint, no matter how low the mileage is or how well it drives.

Its a shame...because to me, these cars are worth more than what many "enthusiasts" of them are willing to pay for them. To me, it doesn't matter because none are for sale anyway. I will never recover my investment in my RS for years to come, so I might as well keep it and drive the wheels off it

In a loving, careful way of course!

 

I don't know what the BFD is about me changing the color of MY car. Color does not effect price! What effects price is what someone is willing to pay for the car.

 

I think I know which site that is!

Sure I know 3rd gens aren't perfect, but they look good, are fun to drive, and have lots of interesting variety. A while back, I went to look at yellow '87 IROC. It had about 150,000 miles on it and essentially needed everything. It was a an LB9/A4. And it drove alot better than you might think. Well, across the street was a Chevy dealer, so I popped in to test drive a new Camaro SS. Honestly, if the IROC I had just driven minutes earlier had been in "like new" condition, I'd have to say that the IROC would have been more fun to drive.

One of my 3rd gens is one of the fastest combos made. The other has a much maligned and misunderstood engine. I love them both. Heck, I was even looking for an Iron Duke recently. Even an LG4/L03 stick is fun in a 3rd gen. So these cars are about more to me than just pure straight line speed and comparing their 0-60 to quarter century newer performance cars. They were fun when they were new and to me they're still fun. We all know why we love and nurture these cars.

But, I also notice that we have lots of folks who buy afew 3rd gens for afew hundred to $1,000 dollars each and just park them - never really getting around to fixing them up. When they realize that they've lost interest or don't want to invest in them, they just dump them to someone who parts them out or part them out themselves. I can't tell you how many 3rd gens I've seem parted out, which I personally think could have been saved. I'm not talking about rusted out hulks either, I'm talking about solid cars with a mechanical or cosmetic issue or two. Cars which require some TLC. Some had I run across first, would have maybe bought and saved.

Maybe we need to create some sort of 3rd gen conservation society which can find good homes for wayward Camaros and Firebirds like that. Actually, I'm not kidding!

 

I would be interested in looking at your SPID in your center console... I do not remember seeing an 88 IROC/350 with T-tops... 87 & 89, seen lots of them, but not 88... Just curious.

 

I have Two cars that fall in that later category. and two that were nothing better than parts cars when I got them.

One of the two almost parts cars is an 87 Formula LB9/M5/3.45 with 150K on it. It really needs some TLC, more than I really have had time for in the past 10 years... The other is a 91 Firebird, V8 (L03), and it has 200+K on it, but its not horrible condition... Just worn out... Some new pieces and parts and it would be fine, but I picked it up on a song and I plan to sell parts off of it when I feel up to it and they are worth more than they are now...

Its sick, but why not make a buck.

 

I dunno if some of you are refering to my post, but I treat my cars well. I have never parted out any of my 3rd gens. The ones I bought for cheap, I fixed them up.

 

Don't get me wrong, some cars should get parted. Some are just too far gone, and their parts are useful for our hobby, before the donor car meets the crusher.


That Formula of yours though, sounds like it needs saving. Don't make me bring a 3rd gen SWAT team to your house!

 

No worries, my friend RPO CC1 and B2L/L98 are present. Lacking one or the other, I would not have bought the car

Camaros were spared the silly no 350/t-top thing until '90!

 

1) Yeah, seeing as how all 3 of us also belong to cz28.com, that was easy

2) Your last statement there made me laugh hard enough to spit Coke at my monitor...the reason being that my wife has considered making a sign for over the side door of my garage..."Emmett's F Body Conservatory" or "Home for Wayward Camaros and Firebirds."

No...I'm not kidding

 

1) Yeah, that place has gotten pretty bad if you don't orgasm over the 5th gen.

2) I wonder if a rational business model can be put together for something 3rd gen-centric like that.

 

I've considered starting my own used muscle car sales/service business, but in the Northeast I don't think its the most sustainable business model Too many kids around here run Civics, Acuras and Wranglers.

As for a third gen focused business, its an awesome idea. Guys like Hawks Third Gen seem to do ok, but he's more focused on parts and modifying customer's cars. I'd love to see someone that also does some restoration work, as well as retail sales. The problem is, the community would have to support prices high enough for someone to make an actual PROFIT

Which, again, goes back to the main theme of this thread...

 

IROCZTWENTYGR8: Excellent rant. Long-windded rants are usually so full of horse doo doo I only get through the first 2 sentences. Nice work.

 

I guess my reference to that "other site" was pretty obvious to fellow members! I like that site, but it does seem to be heavily populated by 4th and 5th gen owners that respect 1st and 2nd gens but very few appreciate 3rd gens.

I think it's safe to say that earlier 4th gens have dropped to prices that are equal to or lower than that of equivalent condition 3rd gens now and well restored or original 3rd gens are commanding equal or greater prices than 4th gens. Guys, I think we're moving back up the ladder :-)

 

I've always thought it was funny how "the other site" has always ranked on third gens, and yet a 4th gen is extremely evolutionary of a 3rd gen. How can you love one, and disrespect the other?

I have always said a 4th gen is a better car, but that doesn't mean I like it better. By better car, I mean it has a better ride...is faster...gets better MPG...has better build quality...etc. etc.

At the same point, a 4th gen has all that and more over a 1st and 2nd gen, but those two gens have legions of fans dedicated to loving and preserving them. 3rd gens haven't had a lot of respect for the near-11 years I've been on this board. At the same point, I am starting to see that change a little. Its about time.

I've owned 1 fourth gen for almost 10 years. I've owned 5 third gens in the past 12 years. My Z28 is faster, more comfortable, and has had far superior build quality to all my third gens. Yet, despite the fact I love that car, I have no desire to own multiple fourth gens, and will sell it once my dad sells me his sub-10k mile 2000 SS. At the same point, I love owning multiple third gens because even amongst my 3, there are vast differences in the way they look, feel and drive.

You can't say that about 4th gens.

 

One of the things that will come about is when the 4th gen starts to deteriorate. Although many of our parts are plastic on a 3rd gen they are mostly interior parts. And many of the engine pieces are still the same as they were on other models, so finding parts is not hard there either. One of the things that would concern me is the 4th gen has plastic fenders, plastic mirrors, plastic doors. On the one hand they would technically never rust out, on the other hand, when they are damaged they may or may not be repairable, unlike a metal fender that can be reshaped, and pieces welded on, I am not as familiar with plastic pieces. I just see a potential of pieces and parts with the 4th gen.

I think my 3rd gen is just sexier

 

I always take pride in referring to my car and it's heavy doors as, "The last of the steel-bodied door slammers."

 

I think 3rd gens are sexier as well, which is why I own 3! At first I wasn't crazy about the plastic exterior, but I've grown to be quite fond of it. It doesn't ding, nor rust. My Z28, at 14 years old with almost 70k on it, looks almost brand new. The way I look at it, its made of the same plastic as Fieros...and Fieros are 10 years older, with inferior build quality to them. Yet, their panels seem to be holding up ok.

The thing I don't like about third gens the most is the interior build quality. The squeaks...the rattles...the upper plastic on the door panels cracking...the dashes cracking...the consoles literally falling apart. My IROC has only 21,000 miles on it, but with t-tops the rattles in the car are just awful.

 

The "other site" was pretty 4th gen-centric. But they dropped that like a 2 dollar ***** after the 5th gen came out. Now the management is really pushing the 5th gen. It's all business, I'm sure.

I can remember lots of threads which turned into redhot 20 pagers in defense of 3rd gens over there - like when someone posted that 3rd gens can't handle like a 4th gen.

Those used to be fun threads. Now all you can talk about are how AWESOME your 5th gen backup sensors look.

 

Oh, you know that I agree about them being sexier as well.

The squeaks and rattles get old though. Some you can fix, some you just give up on.

 

I've had both a 3rd gen and a 4th gen. 4th gen is a better car in every way except one - the shape of the body.

3rd gen is beautifully sculpted from every angle, especially in profile.

And how's this for a testimonial: When my 16 year old boy started looking for a set of wheels, of course I recommended a 4th gen because they drive great, and they are now affordable. But the kid would only consider a 3rd gen because of the styling.

These things still look great even though they're 25 years old. Give them another 10 years and they'll look even better. The beautiful body of the 3rd gens is what will increase thier value as the calender keeps turning.

 

of course the prices are going to go up. you guys junk every good one.

 

how a person classifies a good car worth saving from a junk car that should be parted out and crushed is rested soley on the person who owns it and their own resources available to them along with the captial they have available to throw at the car. Just because you think its worth saving even though it needs 200 hours of weld time doesnt mean the next guy has that kind of cash or even a welder to do it himself. Better to have 3,000 Solid 3rd gens with no welds on them at all in 50 years than 5,000 left that are half welded together and need constant attention to their bodies and other structural parts of the chassis.

 

why would they need constant attention? what do you think gets done at the factory?
then again...you're right if I had to ask that.
onto the contrary, what may be junk to one person, may NOT be to another. I've seen complete, solid, running cars junked.

 

The interior pieces are a drawback, but honestly they are not horrible if you know what to do and how to make them quieter. Off the line, they were pretty tight, and low miles cars usually are not nearly as bad as high miles cars. With some inexpensive items you can actually make a 3rd gen squeak free... My Convertible is actually pretty quiet on the squeak and rattle side of things. Of course its not quite the most quiet ride when going down the road with the top down, so it may be a moot point.

John

 

Any tips or links?

 

I don't know about where anyone else lives, but I see trashed 4th gens every time I leave the house. Firebirds and Trans Am's with headlights that don't go up and down, and paint falling off. Older custom exhausts rusting and falling off... Poorly repaired collision damage... Missing parts... etc. The LT1 cars seem to be in less demand then thirdgens. I've driven the occasional dirt cheap LT1 Camaro or Firebird, and when they're beat to death they're every bit as junk as the worst of our cars. Personally I strongly dislike the feel of those cars, but it might have something to do with not being able to see the end of the hood, or out the back. I won't even get into the cosmetic treatments.

The problem starts at home. The stereotypes are how WE view these cars and their owners. We perpetuate myths, and accept a low position on the totem pole. We encourage destroying our car's identities with excessive bad taste modifications and scrapping the cars for parts. Fact of the matter is a large percentage of the membership here fit the stereotype, and we, the membership and leadership of this forum, do little or nothing to change it. These cars are worth what we are willing to spend on them.

 

1) As the owner of a very nice LT1 car, what I can tell you is that when you compare a well kept 4th gen and a well kept 3rd gen, the 4th gen is a much more comfortable and better built car. No doubt, any car that is abused to death is going to feel like garbage. But, when I look at the fact that my Z28 has over 3x the mileage of my IROC, and over 2x that of my Trans Am, yet is WAY tighter and has never had a single trim part come loose or break, the 4th gen is a better built car.

With that said, I fully agree with you that LT1 cars are getting cheap, and can often be found as cheap if not cheaper than certain third gens.

2) Nothing saddens me more than to see the amount of cars on here that STILL get parted out even today. I would think by now, we as a group would be in preservation mode. I've seen cars on here get parted out that are in better shape than my RS was, that I saw fit to save almost 5 years ago! I cannot imagine parting a car out that was as good as that one was back then...yet I see it all the time. I don't know if he ever did it or not, but just recently a 25th edition '92 Z28 with about 150k on it was in the classifieds for $3,500. Ran perfect. He was going to part it if he couldn't sell it!

At the same point, why the hell could he not sell it for $3,500???? Because our owner body is too friggen cheap!!! If I didn't have my Trans Am, I would've bought it myself!

 

My IROC has 113,000 miles and is virtually rattle and squeek free (and it even has T-Tops!!). Must be payback for my last one which always sounded like it was going to fall apart!
I consider myself very lucky!!

 

The reason cars that could be saved are parted out is simple, The parts are worth more than the car as a whole. Untill the value of our cars comes up to where a good one is worth more then the price of its parts (and as more cars get parted out, that time gets closer) that will be the case. I'm sure 1st and 2nd gens went through the same thing. Probably to a lesser extent with the 1st gens since with only a 3 year build time there were much fewer built.

 

sounds like we won't be seeing many thirdgens on the road in the future. they'll be another one of those "too valuable to drive."

 

I live in Seattle and am LUCKY to see one third gen on the road a week AND I drive 62 miles roundtrip to work daily in HEAVY traffic! Seriously! This may explain why I get so many compliments anytime I park my car--people just dont see them very often anymore.

I know my IROC is a summer only car and maybe thats going to become the trend with fewer and fewer around. Its amazing that GM made 1.5 million third gen camaros and yet here we are approximately 25 years later and its amazing how many are gone....

 

There's still some around here driving around normally. Seems like they don't care to notice mine though.

 

Maybe the 3rd gen is a victim of it's own success. As has already been mentioned, over a million were sold. It was just crazy popular. I mean, in comparison the 4th gen sold in puny numbers, the last couple of years it couldn't even outsell the Corvette. The 5th gen, which is touted as such a smash hit seller, barely sold one third the number it's first year, (and that's on an extended MY), as the the 3rd gen did in 1982.

What that means though, is that hundreds of thousands of 3rd gens survived to suffer the abuses of multiple owners and many, many of them are still running but worn out, tired and available for cheap. So cheap in fact, that lots of guys have a thriving business parting them out for more than the cost to purchase. Not much you can do about that I guess.

On a seperate note, I saw that someone is parting their pretty mint, 43K mile, '82 Z/28, because the passenger side suffered collision damage. Just like everyone else, he'll make more parting it out than selling it whole. It's a shame though...

 

Kind of funny. My car (89) needs a couple dents taken out, the driver's side was keyed over ten years ago, the back bumper is dented in one spot from my mom getting mad at her husband and backing into a fence and I still get people commenting on it. Kids yelling "nice car" people telling me they like my car, my second cousin who is only 6 went nuts the first time he saw it.

I have had numerous offers wanting to buy it, with some being a little persistent and telling me they will give me a good deal, but my mom gave it to me the night before she died, so it's with me for life! Usually when I tell them that, they back down on trying to buy it.

Don't ask me why it says IROC; it's an LO3 VIN E based car, although there is a nice story behind it that could probably explain it.

The front tire is a spare and the back one (and the rest 16") needed shined up. Looks pretty good when they are all polished. Problem is, I want it looking a little crappy right now because I need to fix the VATS system or rig up a toggle switch because when I swapped the steering column, I just did the resister bypass for now.

 

LO3 (E) was the base engine in the IROC in '89. That said yours is the first I've ever seen.

Makes me feel less bad about my LO3 RS. lol.

 

jamie,
As puma said, you can have an LO3 IROC, FYI. No real story there. If the 8th digit is an E, its an original LO3 car.

Charlie,

Its amazing when you look at the sheer volume of certain models sold years ago when there were fewer car offerings. I was at Borders on Saturday, looking at book that chronicled 100 years of American cars. I remember reading the 1985 section, where it commented that something like only 11 million cars were sold in 1985! Fast forward 25 years, and that's the same number we now see as horrific for the car industry because there are so many more offerings fighting for a similar number!

If you wanted true performance in the '80s, your options were limited. Today, we have so many more options. It will be interesting in the next 10 years to see how values change on third gens.

 

Without going into a bunch of details, typically the squeeks come from plastic on plastic, or plastic on metal. With that said, I use this adhesive backed thin felt and some adhesive backed thin foam to place between the rubbing plastic pieces in order to quiet them down. for $15 I was able to really make a difference. Without hijacking a thread, I really do not want to go any further.

John

 

I think a lot of these cars are out of sight but not gone away. They have lost their daily driver status due to high mileage or mechanical needs and have been put in the barn or shed or just covered behind the garage until time or money (or both ) allow refurbishing. The same thing happened with first gens. Sometimes it takes a couple of years, sometimes 10 or more but eventually the car either gets fixed or sold or handed down to someone who will get it back on the road. Every year at shows I meet someone with a first gen firebird that I have never seen before. The stories are always similar "finally talked my dad into selling it" "finally found the time" "guy down the street from me had it for 20 years and I never new it". As far as value, I think our third gens have bottomed out and are starting to rise but, I thought that before and was wrong.