Apology accepted, I was basing my annoyance on your original post, and the fact that you seemed to forget you ever suggested "If you want to add cup-holders, find some factory cup-holders from 1991 & 1992" As if that would be the proper way to do it.

long tanget, not worth it...

So, as a mod, how long would the thread Jeremy suggested last?

 

There were factory 3rd gen cup holders! John didn't specify Firebird vs. Camaro. He said to use original parts. You can. You can use original firebird cupholders and install it on your Camaro. It would look much better than some we've seen. Enough with the bashing. Just because it wasn't clarified which model the cupholder was factory from, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

Hmm I didn't know they had cup holders that is awesome!


Interesting thread.

 

How did a thread about 3rd value turn into a discussion about cup holders, when there is another thread going that IS about cup holders? Somebody post in the wrong thread & others just replied & kept it going?

OK Moderators...Move this cup holder posts to the right thread & stop posting here about them.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/inte...r-install.html

 

it was part of the discussion because some people look down on others who modify their cars away from factory original, including "hack jobs"

 

Ah. In that case, I'm deep into the "hack" category. I make my cars fit ME, not GM idea back in 1987.

I fully respect those that do. Its just not for me or my cars. I don't think I have EVER kept any of my cars stock, and I'm not just referring to an aftermarket stereo.

And I think that is what people lose sight of. Let OTHER people do to THEIR car, whatever they want to. It is "your" car, so what do "you" care (you meaning whoever thinks modding is wrong i'm not meaning Mark specifically) what other people do to THEIR car?

 

the only arguement for caring what others do with their cars is that the more negative the stereotype of the car, the more it hurts the heritage and value of our personal cars.

Kind of like owning a house that has these two jokers living on each side of you

 

LOL awesome comparison 58mark. For anyone joining the conversation late, the cup holder argument has ended peacefully. I'd really like to do the "You know you're a hack when..." thread. As long as it doesn't identify any individual specifically, it isn't that much different than the long thread about what ghetto things a previous owner did to people's cars.

 

Actually I didn't steer the conversation towards cup holders. It started here...

I gave a few examples of other stupid frequent threads on here, of which hack job cup holder installs are a good example. From there it developed a bit of a life of it's own. It's relevant to values because our forum, our community, support activities that keep the values down. The bulk of the membership of this forum couldn't care less about improving the poor image and stereotype because they ARE the stereotype.

 

I have very much been enjoying this thread. For me, I do not now have, never have had or never will have a m*****

On the other hand, two tag lines "The Heartbeat of America" and "We Build Excitement" are the ones that resonate with me and that is why I love my thirdgens. Do I care about the future costs? No, there are much better ways to earn a good return. Do I car about the passion for these cars........yes

On the overall level of this site, yes I do get embarrassed to wear my Thirgen sweatshirt. I put much of that on the senior members and the moderators. I think some of the "guidance" could be a little more gentle. Also, if a thread really starts to go sideways, why not delete the thread rather than the replys. Also, it might be worthwhile to suggest that certain topics in forums will not be tolerated (perhaps unless a moderator allows - i.e. permission first) - such as dual exhausts

Free speech is a right, and I fully support it, but stupidity and ignorance are not.

Anyway, more than my

 

A small gripe, but the one grammar gripe I see all the time that drives me up a wall is neglecting the "to be" in past tense sentences, i.e. "needs replaced", "needs fixed" etc. etc. etc. I used to think it was a typo, and then I realized I saw it so frequently that I think half the people here think that's proper English...

That aside, the other thing is look at the cars we buy. How many people come in here to show off a car worth more than $5k that they bought? How about more than $3k? How about more than $1,500, or even $1,000?

Our cars are such beaters because everyone on this site will only buy beaters. Then you get the same story, "IMA FIX ER UP HUR HURR, BUT AINT MONEY GOT SO BUDJET PROJEKTT!!"

Not saying it's all about money, or that there's something wrong with buying a cheap car, but so many people buy the cheap crappy car because it's all they can afford, then can't afford to fix it right like the project car that it actually is, and end up hacking it "for now". The way I see it is that I understand that even if you have no money you probably want something fun, I'm much the same that way, but the difference is that if you have no money to put into a $1000 car, then why bother hacking anything? Just let it go if you can't do it right. Just drive the $1,000 car for what it is, and don't worry about hacking it up.

It's not even about hackjobs, it's about people who just don't care to do something right, and who will do anything they want to in any way even when they can't afford it, so they end up hacking it, i.e. rustoleum'ing a car instead of driving it with beat factory paint. If money is that tight, you only keep yourself down wasting what little you have on hackjobs that cost more to fix later.

I don't know; I just don't see many people coming in to this site and posting up nice rides they bought. I also see very few really nice build threads. It's just endless stream of $500 car after $500 car, but nobody takes a $500 car and treats like a real project that it is; they just beat it into the ground, splice wires, cut stuff up, etc. etc. Again, nothing wrong with people picking up cheap cars that are projects, but it would be nice to get some balance with some new guys coming in posting up cherry cars that are unmolested and original.

 

There are people that have not-so-nice examples of every kind of car and that do stupid things to them. This is not limited to our cars, 4ths, Mustangs, Corvettes, or even 5th Gens. Go to a 5th Gen site and see some of the stupidity people are doing to those cars LOL. The worst are the imports though. I think we can all say that we've seen more junky, half-done, rigged up projects with those cars than anything.

I'm not quite sure what people are asking here though, as they seem to be blaming it on the site. Are we to delete or lock any post in which perfect restoration and mods down to each detail aren't being presented? Sure, we'd like to do that so people will be more serious and treat the cars better, but something tells me it wouldn't fly or be "good for business," if you know what I mean. Then if we let people slam others ruthlessly for the more less tasteful mods out there, we will be painted as a harsh and biased site with Moderators that don't care. There's almost no way to win in this situation.

 

i beleive we should modify or upgrade 3rd gens with taste,,,original cars for me mean nothing...while some earlier camaro models are valuable stock or original,,3rd gens with a 305 and an automatic are not what i would call spirited driving!!,,sure a stock original car will get more money in the end,,,but if you want to keep your car for the long run and modify it with taste,,,then that's worth a whole lot more to me than an original car that's constantly polished and not driven...and why would anyone want a stock 305 with an automatic,,,a nissan sentra can beat you in an 1/4 mile or close!!!,,,i think weird interior colors or paiting with a roller or whatever other getto things you could do to 3rd gens is a shame,,,but modifying a 3rd gen with class and taste is fine with me..

 

I see what you're saying about it being a no win situation. It really comes down to the price to get into a 3rd gen. Until it's expensive enough to get into a 3rd gen that people with $2000 budgets turn the other way, we're going to get $2000 budget posts. This means lots of spray paint, hacked hatch floors for fuel pumps, wire nuts instead of solder and stick-on ram air hoods. More expensive entry price = higher percentage of owners with bigger budgets and more professional restorations and modifications. Anything else we do to try to force better treatment of 3rd gens is probably in vain.

 

mooch- the irony is dripping from your post. Why do you end every sentence with three commas or thee periods? Do you see anyone else in the world do that? It isn't the proper way to write. That is one example of what makes a lot of members here look silly.

 

I see what you're saying. Maybe we just need to get a "hack job" or "bad taste" smilie and call it even.


Oh, and your right about the 5th gens. Some of the body kit/wheel combos/grills I've seen on those are just disgusting!

 

i thought this site and post were about 3rd gens and not about a smartass correcting people's grammar,,,what do you care how anyone ends a sentence?!?

 

That just further reinforces what I said about Camaros attracting a different class of people; look at the new Mustangs, the people do NICE modifications to them.

 

i don't know about mustangs, but it's not only camaro or firebirds with bad taste mods. I have seen monte carlos, malibus etc etc,,,also some ugly fords.I think anyone can butcher a car, no matter what type or make!

 

That is true, but I've certainly noticed GM/Chevy brand loyalists are usually the worst offenders when it comes to trashing out a car.

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GfS3M3UZr0

 

I think the key is that the mods need to discuss amongst themselves to adopt a more consistent approach to the threads. Some seem to be much more accomodating than others when the topic goes off-line.

For those of us looking for good information, I also have to state that as a result of some of the "discussion" that pursues a topic, going through the "Search" features also becomes a voyage of frustration.

My thoughts as an end is that maybe the whole site needs to consider where its direction lies and how to get there. If it is a social function a la
Twitter and Facebook then fine. If the desire is a more serious, technical focus (as my original belief was) then that is an entirely different matter.

At the end of the day after hundreds of posts, do I have any clearer picture of what a Thirdgen is worth? The answer is no. Do I have some problematic issues with general perceptions as to what it might someday be worth and the answer is yes.

 

Also, I said absolutely nothing about cup holders. Not one word.

I'm not prejudiceD, I'm just sick of seeing beater after beater after beater after beater after beater.

 

WOW Can't believe read through every thread, I hit the last and BAM< I love my 3rd gen! My second one! First was a perfect mint Iroc Z28 T-top 350 TPI Fast unbeliveable machine! I called it my Bubble Bee, Yellow and black! That was 15 yrs ago. I paid 2750 drove it for 3 yrs and sold it for 3800. Biggest regret I bought a 89 RS 4 months ago to restore and fix up. The paint job is two tone, black top and original color on bottom. At first i was not sure I like that style of paint on it,but I really am starting to like it. Someone hit my passenger mirror while i was in store shopping causing it to pull door out. I bought a 91 RS for a parts car,for the door has a 350 TPI in it, good engine! Mine has a 2.8 V6, that is what it came with. Talking all this original being important should I swap the motor? My 89 has 49,340 Mil on it. Oh and to the person who commented on LARGE women buying 3rd gen..lol They would not be able to get in and out of it. Just not a good look. I have read alot of threads today. I am thinking about doing something special to my interior, but after reading this thread not sure if I should. Maybe I should keep as original as possible! Oh and if I don't put the motor in it. I will be selling it. I know it is alot of work changing them out, I wish i could work on my own car! Ok I will stop now.

 

The real turn of events around here was about the time the current format was adopted. The non-tech board was shut down, and the sense of community went with it. At the same time the multiple board format was introduced with the body and interior forums. If it were up to me, I'd bring back the non-tech with about 10 moderators (or more), and the disclaimer that it's for thirdgen related topics not a free for all. Then I'd reorganize the boards, combining the Vendor/Part review forums, Body/Interior/Detailing - Appearance forums, Members cars forums, etc. We've got so many sub-forums that no one is going to take the time to check every forum for new posts. I'd also reorder the listing so that the technically oriented boards are at the top, where they'll be seen first. Right now whining about vendors and products comes up first, followed by the hardcore hack job boards.

It'd also be nice to see Thirdgen.org make an effort to promote and preserve these cars. Right now it seems like Thirdgen.org is the place to go when your beater is broken, or you want to make your Joe Dirt-mobile stand out from the pack. The Tech Data is all screwed up, the RPO decoder is a mess, there's no clear explanation of what Thirdgen.org is even for on the main page. It comes across like the site is only here to sell advertising. But that's just my

 

I understand you were a contributor to the original version of the Tech Data. More than a time or two, after you've stated the Tech Data being screwed-up, I've said you're welcome to assist with it. You are one of several that I think has the experience and knowledge to assist with such a project. However, once the point is reached where we agree that the Tech Data could use some assistance, it's dropped until the next round. When I've tried to take you up on your offer, you've also said that more than one person needs involved and that it would be an enormous undertaking because it would require a lot of documentation. Unfortunately, the people who probably are best able to assist with this are probably too busy. I've chased around some others a few times. Few have the time to contribute, but some have enough time to complain!

As far as the RPO coder, the original web-based version was lost in a HD failure back in the Dirk days. Dirk said he couldn't restore the original version. Some time later, he provided the version we currently have. He said one of his friends wrote it. A few times I've asked you about some RPO codes because I wanted to construct a database with technical information. I asked if you knew of a master list by GM. Some years have the RPO codes printed in the shop manual while other years it only references the Parts and Illustration manual. When you review the Parts and Illustration manual you only find some RPO codes per year. It's not complete. Some are even cryptic. In the end, you stated that all the major RPO codes were already known or can be found with a search for those looking for the information. Maybe I misunderstood you, but it appeared to me you did not believe the project was of value or necessary at that point.

In other areas, you appear to be placing a lot of fault on the site itself. I don't completely agree. I don't agree that we're responsible for what others do to their cars outside of our forum and then post about it here. Or that we're responsible for policing this type of behavior. I've seen some poorly done modifications, or ideas, that I'd never personally do or agree with. However, it's not my car. It's not my duty to force some sort of guidelines as to what people do, and do not do, to their car. I also doubt that banning or deleting content that shows installing "harbor freight" gauges or exhaust systems with 2-3" ground clearance is going to change what people do to their own car. You're giving us a lot of credit if you think this occurs because of ThirdGen.org, and not because of the people who are attracted to the $900 Camaros that are frequently available.

The fact is, as you've said it before, these cars are plentiful and can be found fairly cheap. Many cases they've seen far better days by previous owners. Is that ThirdGen.org's fault? Again, it's some of the people who own these cars. It's no surprise that the people attracted to the $900 ThirdGens are people needing a cheap daily driver (i.e., school-based people). Yes, we have a lot of young members that are cash-strapped. Is it really the fault of the site that these cars are attractive to young people that are cash-strapped? And that they may tend to take the cheap and easy way to customize their car?

Really, I've seen this on so many other sites over the past 10+ years. The "senior" members, who grow up with the site, start having issues with the new members and the image that some bring to the club. This happens to so many sites that get old and large.

This is certainly not a ThirdGen.org issue, nor is it confined to only Third Gens. As mentioned above, tacky modifications can be found on just about any car. The type of "trash" that you're referring to has existed before ThirdGen.org started, and dates further back than ThirdGens.

I don't really feel this is "management and moderators" fault as you suggest. Just as this thread shows, you have 6 of one and half a dozen of the other when it comes down to moderation. There's always complaints. Some stated we're too hard while you state we're too lenient. In my opinion, I'm not so sure it's our area, or even wise, for us to moderate content based on opinions/style/taste regarding modifications that we may or may not agree with. If someone wants to install "harbor freight" gauges and post them, is it really our fault and responsibility? If so, where is the line as to what modification are acceptable? Some would say the same about 20" rims on Third Gens. That topic seems to create a lot of heated comments. Where is this a violation of our Guidelines that have been in place since Dirk days?

You have to remember that anyone with a computer and internet access, which is not uncommon anymore, can participate online. You're going to see all different types of people on the Internet. Good and bad.

Finally, in regard to your comment about bringing the non-tech back, but keeping it ThirdGen, if you think what's being posted on the site is bad enough, and makes the site and owner base look bad, I cannot imagine how a non-tech forum would be unless you want to see and experience some real suffering. I can only think that you might not have seen some of the stuff that would get posted in the A&D forum - stuff that would make an AOL chat room look good. Sure, that stuff could be moderated out but what would be left?

The site exists for all Third Gen owners. My understanding was that Dirk wasn't really too keen on banning anyone, unless necessary, as he wanted the place to be a resource where any and all ThirdGen enthusiasts could participate. I'm sure some of Dirk's vision was lost when he sold it, as some of it was beyond our control, but I'd still believe that this site needs to be shared among all Third Gen owners. Yes, this may not be the best of times for the ThirdGen with all the massively produced cars GM put out, followed by the $900 ThirdGens that are old and worn out by previous owners that attract the people who may not have the money to spend on a good car or to do things "right".

For reference, I have no such things that you're talking about. Therefore, I don't take it personally because you and I appear to share the same preference for clean, mostly stock, vehicles.

 

The best part is, that people are failing to realize that 1st and 2nd Gens went through the same exact thing, even Mustangs from the 60s down to the 5.0s too. 10 years from now, very cheap Third Gens are going to be a thing of the past and you will see less and less of this kind of stuff, just the way it always happens to all special interest cars. Stop blaming the site and the cars, this is a time game we're playing.

As for the Tech Data, it could use to be re-written, but as far as content, there's not much more that can be added, as the Drew original was updated through the years by myself and info I recieved through others as it became known. There's not much more new info out there for these cars at this point. I might take the time, if I have it, to re-write it nicer and do an "About TGO/Third Gens" synopsis for the main page. That's something I always wanted to do but never got around to. Also, non-tech on this site is exactly what we don't need. TGO has been more behaved in the last few years than it ever has in it's history. The last thing we need is to deal with people bashing and fighting with each other and once again, trying to rise against the staff. The decision to keep it a tech based site was a part of the TGO code made long ago that shouldn't be changed. If it was ever added, it'd be so filtered and subject based, it would barely be considered non-tech. I doubt people would want that. The separate boards were done to make finding info easier through the hundreds of thousands of posts we have here and finding the right board just takes a little scrolling. This is nit-picking at a successful formula.

 

That's the thing though, the cars are hitting 25-30 years old and we are still waiting. Muscle cars were inflated in price by the late '80s. If it hasn't happened by now, it's looking pretty doubtful it ever will happen. We are waiting for something that doesn't look like it's going to happen.

 

Great post JT. As somebody who actually paid $900 for his car, I'd like to publically say this:

I was a member of thirdgen.org for a full year before I bought my $900 car. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that without the library of knowledge, the wealth of available parts, and the community of support offered on this site, I would have had serious doubts about entering the thirdgen family. This site gave me the confidence that my purchase was a sound one, and I could fix my $900 project car up into much more, a car I could really be proud of.

We've all known for a long time where drew sits. Sure he's cranky and judgemental, but all families need somebody like that. He also brings things to the table that few others can that are willing to be as active as he is. For this we have to thank him as well

 

oh about drew's complaint about the forum being too big to find new posts, I have my bookmark set up to always read the new posts of the day. I'm assuming more people do it that way, but maybe not....?

give it a try, once you do you'll never go back


https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/search.php?do=getnew

 

That's my fear as well. We were saying "wait another 5 or 10 years" 5 or 10 years ago. There are still beat up cars selling for next to nothing. We might've underestimated how long the dying out of the junkers is going to take!

 

The prices of good condition/mint models have been going up steadily over the years and there are less daily drivers on the road than ever. From what I've seen, even just decent examples have gone up. They are definietly a good amount more expensive model for model than they were 10 years ago, and I know because I was searching for my IROC-Z from 00-04 and never stopped keeping track of them since. There were no collector car companies buying and selling them, they weren't in popular video games, and no one was calling them future classics then. I don't buy into the concept that a broken down Sport Coupe affects the price of a mint Z28 or IROC-Z. What a few owners do to their cars doesn't affect all of the others. People don't see a low miler with a high price and think, well I'm not paying that because I saw a messed up base model the other day, LOL. One has nothing to do with the other.

Also, 60's cars were cheap and went for nothing in the 80s. Teens drove them to high school LOL. I know people that bought mint 1st Gen Z28s for like $5,000 then and there were tons of junkers running around by the late 70s, nevermind the 80s. It took until the later 90s/early 00s and inflated auctions to send the prices sky high. No other cars are ever gonna reach the level of the top original musclecars, people need to forget that. The over-inflation isn't always a good thing. The only people happy about that were those that already owned them, and believe me, almost none of them ever saw it coming. It has put them out of reach for most people that would like to buy them. Also, we are in a recession and there were literally millions of our cars made, unlike say a 1st Gen, it will take time. People should be concentrating on preserving and enjoying the cars, not what they're worth.

 

Great post JT!

And I agree, everyone needs to be welcomed here, regardless of the condition or worth of their 3rd gen.

With that said, I'm only half joking about a "hack job" smilie. It might be a gentle way to apply some humorous peer group pressure to certain modifications.

 

i seems some people here feel "high and mighty" and better than others,this site is for third gen owners to get help with there cars,not a place to be judged,if the guy cant spell,and had to spray paint his car then thats his car and choice.but if he has a problem with it running right and needs it to get to work, i dont care what it looks like and i try to help.i dont care if his radio is installed properly with a dash kit or sitting in the hole.

i dont remember registering on this site and seeing requirements that you cant live in a trailer,or must have a degree in english.

im an automotive tech and i have seen every make and model hacked,from benz's to hyundai's.no more of one than the other.

what someone wants to do to there car is not going to affect mine.if he hacks it up and cant afford to restore the car then so be it.it will end up scrap,and just another third gen off the road,all cars go through a phase where they are grocery getters and get used up,then hit the scrap yard.they just arent old enough,i cant even get antique plates for a few years.

the hacked junks will end up scrap and off the road,lowering the the number of third gens and some day increasing the value of the good cars.

some people cant help where they live,or how much money they can dump into there car,and others just dont want to restore the car and just like it the way it is...........

but they are still a third gen owner and a part of the community.

 

I'm not going to reply to the rest of what you're saying, because I don't think you get "it". It's a waste of time to keep explaining what you think is some kind of class attack.

What someone does to their car does affect everyone else who owns the same kind of car. More so when it's posted online and exposed to more people. It changes how people see these cars. It affects me when someone treats their beater poorly, even if it ends up in the junkyard. Instead of a well cared for, nicely maintained pile of useful parts, all that's left is trashed because "it's just a junky Sport Coupe, who cares what I do with it?". It matters when all I needed was that one part that someone tore up for no reason.

It does affect the rest of us, it all trickles down. All those cars getting used up and off the roads mean that those of us who are lifetime enthusiasts will have less to choose from. That creates higher prices, so we have to pay more for that reduced selection. It's a double edged sword, because what we have becomes more valuable at the same time, but that doesn't really make up for the loss.




JT, and all... Concerning the Tech Data, RPO Decoder, and other issues I mentioned... The point is that for someone coming in, they have no idea what Thirdgen.org stands for. The website used to be the attraction, with a message board as a bonus. It didn't take long before the message board became the focus, but now there's no direction. If the site is just a discussion forum where people can get questions about their car answered, then nothing needs to be changed. If the direction is something greater like promoting, documenting, and preserving these cars than it's missing the boat right now. The home page used to have a giant picture of a nice Thirdgen with the logo, greeting people as they visited the site. The current layout looks like a welcome page for the forum.

I have zero problem helping out if I think it's actually appreciated. The way things are now, I don't know that fixing the Tech Data is all that important. The original document is really dated, and if the person reading it hasn't seen a handful of these cars they don't really know what the writer is talking about. Better yet unless the reader starts out three pages (years) before the year car they want to know about, it's like turning to the middle of a book and trying to understand what's going on. I'd be willing to give the article a make over if the finished product has proper credits, and it isn't chopped up into multiple pages unless it doesn't fit on one page.

The RPO decoder as it currently stands is about 4 steps too difficult. If the old online decoder is lost forever, than maybe we can get someone to write a new one? Or just post a list of the relevant Thirdgen codes and definitions. The download process, and typing in codes, and definitions we KNOW are wrong, is just a source of problems. All the year specific codes could even have an asterisk and a footnote explaining that they may only apply to the year in parentheses. Cryptic codes that refer to something we know specifically could also use footnotes to explain what they're talking about. Either way the best way to decode your car now is either to just post a list of RPO's and yell help, or Google them. An accurate, and thirdgen specific VIN decoder would be really nice too. It should be easier to decode a thirdgen on thirdgen.org then using other websites.

The reason for recommending a non-tech forum, is because that is where people really get to know each other. Without that, you have to spend a LOT of time around someone on the tech forums before you really have any idea what that person is about. It's an important part of community, and it also gives a place for all the nonsense to go, where it can be cleaned out at will. A non-tech section doesn't have to be archived, it could even be deleted every 7-10 days, and any misplaced useful info could be moved. I understand why it went away, but it definitely changed the forum. It was a drastic measure at the time, and it hasn't been given a chance in a decade.

I'm not being critical of Thirdgen.org because it's fun, I'm being critical because I really enjoy this forum. It's kind of like family, and it's a shame to see the forum stalled out. I'd rather see it keep growing. But the way it's set up right now, all anyone wants to do is get in, get the answer, and get out. There isn't much draw other than the challenge of answering questions, and for some the chance to learn. There isn't anything to keep people coming back. Eventually there isn't going to be anyone around to answer the questions.

Of course this is all getting way off track of the thread, and I wouldn't be bothered at all if the mods wanted to prune this part of the thread.