ThreeOhFive

So, here we go! Another thread for you all to follow on the restoration of a Thirdgen Camaro. This one, is a 1991 Z28 hardtop, bright red in color. It has 168,xxx miles, and well quiet frankly, should be a parts car. Problem is, there aren't any good parts on it! This car, I'm assuming has been a Wisconsin car it's whole life, and probably never got the chance to know how nice it was to be kept in a garage. It has a 305tpi in it, motor has a blown headgasket (still runs good!), and a completely shot 700r4 transmission. As soon as the transmission warms up it slips so much the car has to sit for a few minutes, be restarted, and then you can drive it, maybe... another 50 feet. Exhaust fell off the car when I got it home... this is actually working out pretty sweet, the car is taking itself apart for me time to kick back, have a beer, and watch the car do all the work. Just kidding. Well, the nice thing is, this won't be a very frustrating car to fix, because quite frankly, it can't get any worse! We pulled the carpet back yesterday to find that I have a Fred Flinstone Edition Camaro, the driver side floor pan is pretty much just an open hole! Passenger side looks okay from underneath the car, but who knows, we haven't pulled the carpet on that side yet. The car also has holes on the insides of the wheel wells, as the passenger side rear wheel well has some bubbling. Of course, the impact bar is rotted, and the hatch will need to be replaced. Other than that, the car looks surprisingly clean! The wiring needs to be fixed, it had a very annoying alarm on it, all the lights, dash, turn signals, interior lights, blinked when it went off, so we yanked out the alarm box and now nothing works, except the radio, but hey at least now I can listen to music while I fall through the floor Windshield needs to be replaced, pretty much the whole interior needs to be replaced, it's all moist from the bad floor pan. The paint is bad, the chin needs to be replaced, it needs fog lights, list goes on.

So, off to work I go! I'm hoping to have it done within the year. I just started my new job and I'm working a ton of overtime and bringing home the $$$. Stupid thing is, I could have a really low mileage Thirdgen for what I'm going to put into this one just to make this one nice again lol.

Total budget, $8,000 or less. Should be very achievable, as I am doing most of the work on it, and I pretty much get a free professional paint job from a friend... that saves me $3,000 right there. I have the hook ups to get everything done super cheap... new floor pan... $25 for example! I'm hoping by the end of this project, I'll laugh that I used to call my car a "Rustbucket POS".

If I hadn't paid $1,700 for this car and got completely ripped off, I'd part it, but it's my first Z28, so I'm gonna make a go out of the car. First step... get the title... dealership still hasn't sent it to me yet. It was reposessed, city gave it a clear title, but the DMV takes their own sweet time with everything so who knows when it will be mailed to me.

Some pictures of the THE GOOD:

ThreeOhFive

THE OKAY:

ThreeOhFive

THE UGLY:

Jason E

As someone who has purchased:

a) A $1,000 '91 RS as a "fun restoration project"
b) A $3,000 '86 TA with only 31,000 miles that needs fresh paint and some detailing...otherwise is wonderfully solid
c) A perfect 88 IROC 350 with 21,000 miles that needs less than nothing.

If you have already, before tearing into it, identified the fact that you will spend WAY more on this project than it'll be worth...than you could buy a mint, clean, better one for...

For the love of money, STOP before you start. I cannot tell you what to do. Fixing cars can be fun, but you're going to be throwing good money after bad really, really fast. I know you're bummed you got burned...but take it from someone who's been there...

Pass that thing to someone else for $1,000, take the loss, and move on. You'll spend more than 8 grand on that car. Take it from someone who thought he'd spend that on an RS...and ended up spending a whole lot more...

2MNYMaros

iTrader: (1)

Did you pick this up from Firebird City by chance? Ive delt with him numerous times and was actually looking at a car very similar to this not too long ago. When I looked at it, it was going for 2500. Good luck to ya fellow Wisconsinite! IMHO best way to go about this thing would be to just take it 100% completly apart and go for broke. I would attempt to restore this car myself, if that helps ya any.

ThreeOhFive

YES!!! I did lol. I got it for like $1,500 and some change, with the tax and title it came out to $1,700 even. $1,700 is still too much, he told me he wanted $2,500. That guy is a real character. If you want to lend a hand, I'll take some help on it! It needs some love, that's a given.

ThreeOhFive

Breakdown on prices:
Floorpans/wheel wells/welding $1,000
L98 Block (injectors/ecu, etc) $450
Good 700r4 $Free
B&M shift kit $50 (I install)
Engine/Tranny Swap Fluids/Filters/Extra $300
Body Work $50 (I am doing that)
Hatch $150
New Badges (Rockers/Rear) $200
Used Foglights $150
Centercaps $150
Weatherstripping $300
Undercoating for car $100
Rims/Tires $800 (selling old rims for refinished ones)
Extra Mechanical Money $500
Interior $1500 (way more than needed, panels, seats, carpet, headliner)
Paint $1,000 (even though it'll be pretty much free)
Windsheild $400
Suspension (recently redone, new springs/shocks needed though) $600

Still under $6,000 and that is way higher than what I'll be paying for some of the stuff. We just fixed up an '89 Formy and put a 350tpi in it, did pretty much the same things the Z28 will need, floors, new interior, all the body work, paint and suspension, we spent $4,000. And that car was just as rough. This is a stock build, except it will no longer be an LB9 car. 350tpi swaps are cheap and you can pick up good blocks for as little as $200. As for all the other parts, you have to know where to look.

Jason E

I wish a restoration project was as easy as simply writing down a list of what you THINK it will need, and what you THINK it will cost. Its the never-ending list of unknowns that blow most projects up. If you're getting things like free transmissions, then that's great...but what if the free transmission blows up after a few months? What if that 350 long block you get has issues? What if the wiring becomes a nightmare you need someone else to sort out? I'll bet with that much rust, the bottoms of the fenders are shot too and you'll need new fenders. There's just one example.

Not trying to pee in your Cheerios here...but if you've already identified that this car is going to cost a significant amount of time and money, more in dollars than the end project is worth...not a good way to start.

Regardless, I wish you the best of luck. I give anyone credit for saving a third gen...after 4 long, painful years, my RS is done. But I have more tied up in it than a pristine t-top L98 IROC with 21,000 miles on it.

Yeah, I feel dumb just saying that....

subroc

iTrader: (2)

Im going to agree with this 100%. In the end its your car and your going to do what you want to do but that is a lot of rust for a car that is just shy of 20 years old. You will spend way more than you ever think your going to spend as was already said. I am in the process of a building a motor for instance and figured it would cost me about 2500 for a good "budget" build. That figure is long gone now with machine shop costs and unforseen parts that i needed to purchase. Its still not done because of this.

No matter what you think...these cars are not rare. You can still find extremely clean bodied thirdgens for way less than your going to spend in the end to get that car "nice". The other problem that you may or may not be thinking about is there is NO way to get rid of rust permanently. Once a car has rust it is damn near impossible to get rid of it. And the amount that im seeing in just a few of your pictures tells me there is hidden rust in all sorts of places on that car.

In the end you will do what you want. I saw the other thread with people giving you a laundry list of reasons why you shouldnt buy that car and you did anyways. We were trying to look out for you...just as we are now. If you choose to keep the car and restore it then im sure there will be people steering you in the right direction of how to go about things as well. It does suck that your out that money but its not the end of the world. Just one life lesson is all.

The way i see it you have three options here:

1. Keep the car and accept that it will never be perfect
2. Sell the car and take the slight loss and find a cleaner start for a project
3. Do a bit of a combo of both...find a clean shell (as in RUST FREE) to use that as a base and use this car as a very expensive parts car.

Awesome-X

Well whatever you decide to do have fun with it. It certainly looks nice on the outside lol.

Orrrr you could sell it to me for a parts car for $500

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Looks like you got some work ahead of you on that one! It def does look nice on the outside though. I don't think it's too far gone. Some new floorpans will make a huge difference. For some reason the 91-92 cars LOVE to rot real bad...not sure if GM changed the seam sealer or stopped undercoating them or something but in my experience, every 91-92 has nasty rust. My 86 was clean as a whistle!

Anyways, you can have people tell you it's a waste of money all day but if you have a good time doing it and have a car that your proud of afterwards, then it's completely worth it. Plus, the attention these cars get when people see a CLEAN one is priceless itself, since they virtually don't exist. I've been restoring mine for 3 1/2 years now and so far have sunk around $7k into it and still probably have somewhere around $5-6k to go. When it's done it will be one of the most bad azz rides in my area and the looks and comments when it's done will be worth it alone to me. Do what you want, and don't listen when people say to junk it. Believe me, every one of my freinds have told me at least 30 times that I'm wasting my money, but I'm happy with where it's going!

Good luck man.

subroc

iTrader: (2)

The big difference though that your not stressing is that you dumped 7k into a clean starting point. To get his car to where your car is now he will need to dump much much more. If all we are seeing is the rust in the floor pans to that degree im sure there is much much more rust that is lurking hiding somewhere. 91/92s are awesome cars but there really are more cost effective ways of still getting a awesome third gen.

Your happy where your cars going cause its coming out awesome. Ive been following your thread on and off since it started and am very impressed. I gave the advice i did to him because i dont think he will be happy with his results at the end seeing the amount of rot that car has. Ive been fiddling with rusty cars for 10 years being in CT also and it just gets old real quick. Once a car has that amount of rust its damn near impossible to get it perfect ever again. You had the benefit of having a clean starting point that looks as if it never saw a ct winter. As i said if he doesnt mind it being not perfect and him having to chase rust ever year or two then by all means go to town. Ill follow that thread and help out with whatever i can.

ThreeOhFive

Update, the passenger side floor is shot, too, lots of holes lol.

I'm keeping the car, I don't have the heart to get rid of it or part it out. Could someone offer me some helpful advice in regards to fixing it up?

My biggest concern is the wheel wells, they all have holes inside of them, are those holes easy to patch? What are my options?

subroc

iTrader: (2)

*sigh*. Well if your keeping it then i think your going to be doing some hunting in the junk yards. You are also going to have to either strip the car down and hand it to someone who welds (assuming you dont that is) or learn to weld yourself. Its not that hard and is a good life skill to have. If you would like some tips on welders and what to get and run you can PM me.

As for the wheel wells...what are we talking here? Id have to look at how it goes together back there but if its how i think it is..then they are spot welded onto the body. So you can get a spotweld drillbit and cut the wheel wells out with it. Then weld some clean ones in. Wanna post pics?

ThreeOhFive

Thanks. I work in a factory, everybody welds, all day long lol.

I'll get some pictures of the wheel wells for you guys. It's hard to describe, but I can see into the car from a small hole in the back wheel well.

Jason E

Check the base of the strut towers too, while you're at it. We finally junked my friends 83 L69 rustbucket because those were rotted too...AFTER he had already welded new floors into it.

Its obvious the people telling you not do this, who have been down this road before, aren't going to be listened to...I wish you luck.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Huh, didn't even realize you were out of CT as well. Anyways, I did get lucky with mine being so clean, as it was originally bought in MA and has been between MA and CT it's whole life. I'm sure it was garage kept for the majority of that. Either way, I know there are clean ones out there but to take a rusty one and fix it up takes some heart. If the entire rest of the car is not that bad and it's just a matter of floor pans, then it wouldn't be too bad. I personally can't stand rust though as it's very hard to completely get rid of. I will def be keeping an eye on this thread though to see what comes out of this.

subroc

iTrader: (2)

Yea im down in guilford. I have a thing for vintage subarus so i know all about rust. Even the low mileage ones have rust because of the crappy steal that they used back then. As for my iroc...it was a MA/CT car all its life and only had two or three spots of surface and zero undercarriage rust when i redid it. I cant stand rust either. I was just trying to warn him that if there is that much rust there then there is more where he cant see. If he can fix it all more power too him but that would have turned me away once i saw the floors.

Derth Deboblo

Wow, that's bad. If I was you i'd think LONG and HARD before you dedicate your time and $$ to this car. Good case for cutting and running. If your dead set to do this though, good luck. You're gonna need it.

2MNYMaros

iTrader: (1)

Keep this in mind with this car. You have an outlet most of us here dont, how long itll last I dont know. The place you bought this car from has been dealing with these cars for many many many years and usually have quite a few in the yard to pick from. Demand for parts out in that area for these cars is not as high as per say Milwaukee etc. Not only that but If I am not mistaken, part of the sale when you buy a car from F.C. is that u can come and get parts you need for free within a certain amount of time. That may have changed since I have last been there but it wouldnt hurt to ask him. Simply say that the car you bought needs floors and would like to know if hed give you the parts you need to fix it. If you are able to get stuff from them freely for even a limited amount of time that in itself could pay out to be pretty invaluable expecially for replacement panels.

Flip side. I think if you could do it cheap enough then heck yea man as i said before, I would do it. Most importantly have fun with it while you are doing it.

regal301

i have used the bondo fiberglass resin to fix dozens of camaro's 3-4 layers of the stuff and it is stronger than metal. it bonds to anything conforms to any shape and its really easy to do.

i buy the one gallon metal jug and buy the fiberglass cloth seperate. but heres a small kit so you know what your looking for.

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/web...ci_sku=7100973

Dante93GTZ

iTrader: (5)

The question I'd ask myself is: "Am I going to keep this car FOREVER?"

If the answer to that question is "NO", then I'd just sell it and move on to something in better shape.

If you're going to hang onto it a while, then by all means, do the repairs and enjoy it. I doubt a single one of us actually has less in our cars than they are worth (except the rare ones; 1LE, TTA, etc).

irocman79

iTrader: (5)

i say keep it but find another one that has at least better floor pans wheel wells and use two to make one looks like there could be somthing maybe you could use off the red one. those floors look real bad you are also going to need fenders rockers looks like it could be creeping into cowl area. plus i would imagine that your trunk looks just as bad as the front pans. plus you said your hatch was bad i wonder what the bottom of the doors look like so then your looking at new doors. plus the lower skirts are not cheap for a good one. im wondering if someone through a cheap paint job onto some bondo over rust in the quarters. I can't imagine that a car with floors like that doesnt have some really bad quarters

Maeryk

Learn to weld. You are gonna need to know how.

Roc THIS

If you have not already bought a new hatch , I have one you can have . Not sure why you need one but I cant give this thing away . I am a little south of chicago if you were ever down my way and wanted it .

Duane's 91 Z/28

iTrader: (1)

Keep it man. Restore it however you want to. 91s and 92s are more rare than the 82-90s as I have a 91 I'm going to restore original as possible.

86blackiroc

iTrader: (12)

I've been down "Rustbucket Road" a time or two, and yeah, things tend to get out of hand and they often get expensive. But by all means, go for it! I don't know if people have noticed the classifieds here lately, it seems more of these cars are being parted than repaired.

92 Camaro

iTrader: (1)

ok this wasn't worth the buy. I still say fix it.

ThreeOhFive

Thanks! Mine has rot on the inside of it, it's pretty gross. I could fix it, but I can get a hatch for $10 at a junkyard, so I figured I'd just get a new one! Chicago isn't too far, I'd love to come down and pick it up, shoot the breeze a little bit!

ThreeOhFive

You hit the nail right on the head... Even in this area, I've seen some really decent looking Thirdgens for sale (Iroc's, GTA's, 91-92 Z's, RS's) and the owners just parted them out because they couldn't find a buyer. 3 in the last month have ended up like that. A yellow 305tpi '85 Iroc, a '91 305 red/red RS, and a black '92 RS Hardtop 305 5-speed. I called each one of those ad listings on Craigslist, hoping I could get a deal on them, all were parted... that was just this month!!! It's even worse on here! Keep in mind, they only built 12,000 '91 Z28's... There can't be more than 3 or 4,000 left now, everytime I check the classifieds, there's another few '91 Z's up for parts, and I don't even want to know how many of these cars were wrapped around trees!

Roc THIS

Ya this one is not too bad . Minor surface rust that will sand right off . Just PM me if you ever head out this way .

ThreeOhFive

So, as promised, wheel well rust pictures!

ThreeOhFive

Strut tower bases... look good!!! Feel solid!

ThreeOhFive

Underside pics:




Hahahahaha, Look at my impact bar!!! That's nasty!

ThreeOhFive

Some more rust pics:
This is just surface rot, this is 100% solid underneath, thank God!

See...

Passenger floor:

Hatch area, metal is solid, just surface rust.

ThreeOhFive

Around the top corner of the windshield:

88FormulaKiller

iTrader: (8)

305, i have to agree with Subroc on this man, i live MA and when i went searching for my 91 Formula/TA i must have looked at 5 or 6 of them and once i saw any kind of Rot to the frame or pillars as i can see on this car i moved on. There are too many of these cars around to buy that have a solid body to start with, imo, if you have a 7K-8k $$$ budget, why not buy a mint rolling chassis that someone might have already primed or painted and sink 5-6K on the drivetrain??? Either way, good luck man, i'd take 500 bucks of your budget and invest in a Hobart, might save you a grand or 2.

ThreeOhFive

Someone has to save a rusty Thirdgen. We can't all be picky and pass on a car that has just a spot of rust. I live in Wisconsin. My '92 RS that I just sold, I had to go all the way to Florida to get. There is nothing remotely close to rust free around here, and the one's that are in good shape, go for way more you would ever want to even pay for the rarest of Thirdgens. Do you know how many Thirdgens I see actually driving every year in this area? I work in Madison, Wisconsin, and do quite a bit of traveling... I'm lucky to see 5 thirdgens, in a years period. They simply don't exist in this area any more. They are all rotted out in junkyards. I didn't have the money to spend finding a roller and transporting it all the way to Wisconsin, but I was able to find a car that could be saved through a lot of work, so I bought it. $1,700 cash (If that gives you any idea of how much even a beat up, rotted out Thirdgen is worth around here...) I'd never seen a red Z28 in my life, most of you are lucky enough to see them every day. I get stoked every time I see a nice F-body around here, even if it's a rust bucket. So you guys can all sit on here and say, "burn it" or "scrap it" but maybe I'm just the only one on here that actually has the motivation now days to work hard, maybe spend a bit more, and build up a car that was trashed for 20 years, rather than buy somebody's trailer queen or garage queen. Like I said earlier, every time I log on to this site, someone else is posting up a Thirdgen as a parts car, and so many are 91's and 92's. You can all scrap your cars, go ahead. I have loved these cars since I was little and they were brand new. I don't have the heart to take one off the road forever.

I don't want to sound like an a**hole, but if you guys are going to post anything negative about my car being "scrap, junk, a parts car", don't post in this thread, keep those opinions to yourself. To the people offering parts, and being supportive to one of the only people here willing to actually SAVE a Thirdgen, thank you! I need your help!

Now, as for the car, the plan for it is, I'm stripping the car down, interior, all ground effects, nose, the fenders, spoiler, bumper, all lights, hood, doors, windshield, hatch, and the engine and tranny, exhaust, etc, are going to be removed. Only thing left in the car will be the wiring harnesses. That'll be my first big project.

Maeryk

If you know what you are getting into, more power to you. If you are viewing this as a learning experience, it's about the most hands on class you can ever get, and you just might come out of it with a nice vehicle. I suspect you are going to spend a lot of money on replacement sheet steel. If you know how to weld and do light fab (especially if you have, or know someone who has, access to things like a brake, shoe bender, roller, and punch, etc,) you may have an easier time of it. If you want to learn to weld, this is the way to go.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Where is a moderator when you need one?

ThreeOhFive

Too late, already ordered the floor pans. Once again, lease keep negative comments to yourself.

Maeryk

COOL! Best of luck! Do you have a garage to work in?

I fit was me, I'd start hunting on CL to find a used welder set up you can get for cheap, and get some comparable sheet metal to practice on. learn to do a good bead, as well as a tack and fill.

You will save yourself _tons_ of money in the long run, over having someone else (unless they work for free) do it for you every time you need something welded in.

a sawzall, a good dremel setup or angle grinder (careful, they feast on human flesh whenever possible) and possibly access to a beverly shear might be high on your list too.

86blackiroc

iTrader: (12)

Who the heck cares if it's "worth it" or not, and that first gen comment is a load of crap too. Anyone that does a resto on a rust bucket is going to lose money, no matter what kind of car it is. We all know that, but we do it anyway because we are enthusiasts. If you're only in it for the money, you are NOT an enthusiast. An enthusiast would never junk something "because it needs more parts than it's worth".

scottmoyer

No more of the negative comments towards the original poster or about the car!

CrAlt

Im trying to be negative or anything but if your going to do all that work you might as well just do a rebody. Ive been down this road before.

Even here in the rust belt ive come across some solid rust-free'sih shells. You have alot of good parts there to Xfer over to a solid shell.

Any ONE of those problem area's you posted is not that big of a deal by themselfs.. but all at once?? These cares are unibody. You got major rot in structural area's of the car. You go cutting big chunks out and your car and its going to fold in 2.

ThreeOhFive

The only place that the rot affects the structure is the floor on the driver side, and keep in mind, this is a hardtop car, more more strength in the body than if it were a convertible, or T-top car. The A pillars are solid, driver side has a rot hole about the size of the tip of your pinky on the skin, the A pillar frame is perfect. Firewall, tranny tunnel, engine bay, hardtop, are all solid. The is no chance this car will fold in two, or even sag. The floor pans are being installed professionally, so the car can be supported/braced while each side is done, that way there is no risk of the body getting out of alignment. The floors in it, although there is rot on both sides, are still supporting the car okay, and the wheel well rot is more annoying than any kind of structural problem. The frame is fine, the body is okay, just needs floors and wheel well patching. Everyone that has seen it and looked it over has said it was worth saving and it wouldn't be too much work, I think the pictures make it look worse than it really is lol.

I just moved it to my garage, it's a very small one car garage space I rent, it's like 10x22, it's small but I can work and move around in there. Later in the build it will be in my buddy's 3,500 square foot shop. Right now we are just stripping the car down, so the small garage is okay! And I get to push it down the street to the body shop that is doing the welds for the floor pans

ThreeOhFive

So, the goal:

Exterior, GM bright red, stock Z28 appearance, fog lights, body colored hood blisters, silver 91-92 style "Z28" emblems on the rockers, red "Z28" emblem on rear bumper, with red "Tuned Port Injection", non-tinted windows, refinished/remachined 16x8" 91-92 style rims with silver inlays (red is just too much red!!!), refinished/polished tail lamps, new park lamps, refinished bowtie grill.
Interior: Stock, converted to black/charcoal, new carpet, headliner, seats, door panels, dual reading lamp mirror, added footwell courtesy lights (like Iroc's had), etc.
Drivetrain/mods: 305tpi LB9, 700r4 with B&M shift kit, headers, 3" exhaust, Magnaflow catback, Hypertech Chip, 3.23 disk posi rear end.

Some pics:

ThreeOhFive

So now that you know where this car is going

Here's a pic from earlier, starting to disassemble the car, should have taken a pic when I left, a lot more was gone

Carlos773

iTrader: (3)

Good luck to you, My 92 RS has 155k miles and now I see how lucky I am on its condition. Most of mine is surface and should be fixed with some POR.

Like I said, Good luck, and keep us updated!

86blackiroc

iTrader: (12)

It's a minor detail at this point, but I like the red emblems on a red car. It wouldn't really match to have silver on the sides, but red on the rear

Nice choice on the black interior too