hello thirdgeners..

i am in a debate with myself in what to do with my car... my car is a all original (except exhaust) 1988 firebird formula 305 tpi 5 speed with 135k. the debate i am have is what do with my engine in my car. should i just put and ls motor (4.8, 5.3 5.7 or 6.0 liter) into it. or build a the 305 i have, into a 335 stroker?

i don't really have the option of doing a 350tpi cause there are just no 350's around. all the junk yards are crushing all cars from the 80's and the dirt track guys buy all of them right when they get there.

i do want to keep the car original but yet still have some power and be reliable... my goal with building a 335ci would be 300hp and 400tq at the crank..

and cost, what will cost more....

thanks.... macneilbibi

 

i'm confused... since when are junkyards the only source for a 350? There are nationwide engine rebuilders who have blocks in stock, not to mention the dozens of people that sell crate engines.

You might say "but mark, those places are so expensive, and I'm on a budget"

True... and if that's the case, you have no business even thinking about a LS1 swap. That will cost you thousands more than a crate or rebuilt 350

 

Just one opinion....I always look at the end product...and arguably I'll say these "special builds" are hard to get rid of...they're nice cars, but special knowledge is required to work on them. I always go original. The other thing to consider is after you load that car with that power (prob min of $6000), you'll need to reinfoirce the frame.

 

Agree with 58mark!

 

i did look at blueprint awhile back, emailed them about there tbi engines and said that they had done no testing with tpi's...

but i was leaning more towards building my 305. i dont need that much power. those numbers was an over all goal.. and probably will not get rid of my firebird for a long long time... love it to much.. im in no rush to get it built up. just havent seen to many thirdgens with the engine tranny combo... at least around my area..

but i drove a buddys ls1 firebird with a 6 speed and that was just another animal all together... only reason why i considered doing a ls1 or ls motor in the first place. lol

 

If you were concerned about going LS1 or keeping the car original, that would be one thing but since you are considering going LS1 or building the 305, then I would go for the LS1. Building a stroker out of a 305 is an exercise in sheer pointlessness.

That said, 350s aplenty pretty much anywhere--I bought a rebuilt 350 shortblock with 4 bolt mains and a one piece rear seal for $900 from Checker back in the day. It's still sitting on my engine stand X years later...pretty good deal IMO, just had to throw heads/cam/intake/pan on it pretty much.

 

This is my opinion, I've owned 3 3rd gens and now 3 4th gens in my life and right now I own a 2000 SS and a 2001 SS. The power and reliability of the LS1 is so much better than any motor that came before it. You'll have to spend a good amount on your 305 to get it to do what my stock LS1 does. Don't get me wrong I loved my 3rd gens . . . but a car that doesn't leak and starts everytime beats it everytime. Plus you can build a iron 6.0 for cheap and if you had the money through a blower on it and it will take all the abuse. It's up to you though, if you want all original I'd rebuild the 305 and make it look good for shows, if you want to go fast go with a LS block and a T-56

 

You have a fairly nice car combo wise now. If If you do go for a LS just make sure you do it in a way that the car can be brought back to org cheaply.
just incase you want or have to sell it.
one way to do the LS swap is buy a complete wrecked car and part out what you don't use. Have many friends that have done it and it pays 4 most of the swap.
Make sure you save the org drivetrain 4 the car..

 

Only one mans opinion but....
If you want an LSX, buy a 4th gen.....
If you want a nice 3rd gen, keep it a 3rd gen.

 

^^^What he said...

I'd prefer to see you keep it stock...that's a fun, semi-rare combo you have there...

 

thanks u all for your input... might just keep the old 305, but it smokes like chimney.. needs vale seals i believe.. so i have been told.

few videos of it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWpyryCJTsY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG3WXTeXRDw

 

You answered your own question yourself. Rebuild the 305 with a 0.030 overbore, 3 angle valve job, port & polish the heads, etc. The major cam manufacturers will be happy to work with you on a custom grind. This sounds very 'Old School' and it is. And yes, its NOT going to gain you a bunch of power but it does retain the cars 'Born With' motor. Years from now the car will be worth more if it has its OEM drive-train.

Remember: Its only original ONCE!

 

Keep it original and buy a LSX car.

 

Just because it's a Formula with the 5 speed... I'd probably leave it close to stock... IF IT'S LOW MILES.

If it's north of 150k miles, I'd just do whatever you wanted to with it. LS swap, whatever.

I have issues with low mileage, highly optioned, rare cars being gutted for different drivetrains. Not so worried about with my old RS, it was a pretty base car to begin with. Your car is a different story.

I definitely wouldn't throw some carbureted 350/th350 into it. If you change that engine, go with an LS family engine. If your car is still lowish miles, I'd leave it stock and rebuild what you have.

A lot of these guys are right when they say these cars will be worth more with their original drivetrains down the road, and that only applies to high performance cars (TA's, GTA's, Z28's, IROCs, Formulas, etc) which yours is, but when you're talking about a 250k mile car in 20 years... I dont think being "all original" is really going to make all that much difference anymore. The people that care about all original will want it to be at least a reasonable mileage.

Also, what kind of condition is your car in? It looks decent, but context makes a difference. I see some bad door dings. If it's gonna need any serious body work or a repaint by the time it gets sold, I think that would affect value too, ESPECIALLY if you do those currently popular strip the car of all pinstriping, door moldings, and accent coloring fad. You want that thing to look STOCK, not like someone was too lazy to put the factory pinstriping back on it.

The way I see it, your car being a 305TPI-5spd is one of the more desirable variants, but in addition to that it will need to be either a low to medium mileage "survivor", or it will need a full restoration to get serious value out of it, and we're talking a long time before that value is anything significant.

 

Agreed . . . op I'm selling my 2000 SS lol

 

the 305 TPI 5-speed is a fun car in its own right. keep it stock..
From one to another!

 

If you don't need that much power, why even consider an LS1?


IMO, there's two good options. Option one, buy a basic 350 long block and toss your TPI on top of it with an increase of fuel pressure or new injectors (for a 350). Option two, rebuild your stock 305 with P&P'd heads and a mild cam, and maybe a couple other easy bolt-ons.

 

yes it does have that nasty little door ding... lol but thats about the only ding on the car. its in ok shape.. the interior is shot, but what can ya do if the car wasn't taking car of before you bought it... can't complain too much. i only paid $500 for the car

how i got the car

 

i had some parts for the 305 picked out..
the 350 ram jet cam
corvette aluminum heads from edlebrock
1.6 roller rockers
port and polish the intake, runners, ect

 

Drive one for more than a quick thrashing and you'll see. Even the lowly 4.8 with a lame stock cam is better in every way than the strongest L98 put in any 3rd gen. I did a 5.3 swap mainly because my old 305 was worn out and let me tell you, its the best thing Id ever done. Had I known how pleased Id be with it, I never would have dropped the first dime into upgrading the 305, but instead put it in the LSx swap jar

Back to the "rare" thing. 3rd gens are simply too common for anything other than an un-driven gem to be worth anything. 135k with issues? Mod it to your hearts content

 

All good choices and should give you the extra "Umph" you want. Do keep all the original parts just in case you/someone wants to go back to stock. As I mentioned, years down the road it will be worth more 'stock'. Don't believe me? Take a look at 1st gen values - the more stock the better. Heck, even a bone stock 6-cyclinder 69 Camaro is fetching REAL money.

As I've said before: They're only original ONCE.

 

Man that car cleaned up VERY nice. You got an EXCELLENT project car thats now a solid driving car. Great job! Not every day you find a 305 TPI 5 spd car rotting somewhere that you can bring back as far as you have with what appears to honestly be fairly minimal exterior work.

Now... knowing that it sat neglected for who knows how long and the interior is shot... interior can be fixed, but I'd be more inclined to mod that thing to my heart's content as well. People who want OEM stock cars for the kind of money that makes it worth it maintain OEM factory stock status, want "survivors" that are in decent shape with the original parts all over it. Yours is.... borderline. Just depends on whether you want to spend a bunch of money making sure it stays factory and rpelacing all the factory parts that come off of it or break with proper factory replacements, or whether you want to build a wild hot rod with an LS1 and a 6 speed.

Honestly... I think the oppurtunity for that car to be worth big money to a collector in 20 years has already passed. Do what you like to it.

They make a good point about looking at first gens, but the question is whether or not a 300,000 mile first gen with all worn out stock parts, a worn out engine, and a trashed interior is worth more than an LS1-6 speed swapped first gen with completely redone interior. A half-restored (ie rebuilt engine, non factory paint, headers, flowmasters, strut tower brace, new interior) bolt-on'd car will not be worth as much money as a survivor that's all stock, and I dont think your car is at a point where enough of it is stock or can remain stock that it can satisfy people looking for "survivor" cars.

A well done swap to a clearly superior drivetrain platform can only improve the value except in cases where you yanked out a very rare drivetrain combination. I'm talking something like the TTA or Firehawk. A well done swap means functioning gauges - drives like factory, runs like factory, etc. Swap cars always have weird... issues here and there, but try to address them and the value should go UP not down, even in 20 years. "restomod" style cars, old school classic cars with modern drivetrains are a big hit these days... Some people want all original, but there's a LOT of people out there that can appreciate a modernized, improved car - but it just has to be well-done. It HAS to be daily drivable by someone who didn't build the car. They should be able to hop in and drive it to work every day - you know what I mean?

I would definitely NOT advocate swapping a Gen I 350 or 383 in it and tossing a carb on it. That car as it sits will be worth more than it would be with a cobbled together carbed heads/cam 350. If you go 350/383 - keep the TPI as much as it sucks, or go Stealth Ram. Or go Gen III/IV. The car is optioned well enough that it deserves to stay fuel injected. A well-done engine swap can only increase the value unless you've got a very rare, desirable drivetrain combination. The 305 TPI 5 spd setup just isnt rare enough, even in 20 years, for it to be THAT noteworthy, in my opinion. TTA's and Firehawks, LOW MILE 305 TPI/5spd cars, etc, I'd leave alone. Yours just doesnt quite fit that category.

And in my opinion, as involved as LS swaps are, I dont think going back to stock when you want to sell it is really an option. That's why its important to do it well.

 

That's not what I was trying to get at. The OP stated that much power wasn't needed. If you don't need that much power, why spend the $ on an LSX swap? Sticking with a rebuilt 305 with a few upgrades is going to cost MUCH less than the cheapest LS swap, no matter how good of a deal you find on everything. Once all the nickels and dimes are added up, it's still an expensive swap... and it's probably not a rebuilt/new engine either.

 

I agree w/ Pocket re: the original/modded decision.

It's hard to accept that you can't find a roller rocker/1-piece rear main
GM 350 block in WI, or even w/in reasonable driving distance into adjoining
states. But you live there, I don't.
And re-build costs for the 305 are going to be identical after a
350 is procured. Then by the time you add in the top-end items listed,
your gonna be very close to crate engine cost. Plus, you can keep the
vehicle in service while the 350 is acquired.

It not clear what your skill level is, because the LS swap is definitely
more complicated. Lots of adapter parts are available, but some
rudimentary knowledge of what needs to be changed will be very useful.
Whereas a 350 swap is very simple, in that all your accessories will
be plug & play. So how much is cost & simplicity worth to you?

Good luck, and keep us posted.