hey guys I've been musing over this Firebird on ebay that's supposedly been miraculously maintained by an old lady ..

it looks like exactly what i'm after but something strikes me as fishy about this dude and/or this car...

specifically the fact that the negatives of the car are completely glossed over until the hidden end part of the listing:

"Small oil leak i saw after it sat stationary for a week. The car isnt perfect and youll tinker with something but this is as close to a New body as you will find..;-)"

hmm a car as perfectly mainained as he says this one is doesnt seem like it would need tinkering ..
im suspicious as you can basically detail a funky engine to get it looking like this. if i listen carefully to the test drive in that video it sounds like there could be some engine knock.

any opinions?

thanks

ps if you have anything even close to this car and you aren't fishy hit me up


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ponti...item4843ee93ec

 

I'm really good at spotting stuff of cars. I ran into your Ebay ad here and found several items within minutes of having gotten up to let the dogs up for a few minutes tonight.

Panel fit & finish is one of my hot-spots so I'll just throw out some quick stuff that you should be able to go back and see.

A) Both bumpers have been repainted.
B) The drivers door does not fit the vehicle opening
C) passenger front fender has dings and rolls in metal
D) rear deck lid does not line up with rest of sheetmetal, signifying rear end hit.
E)Possible rust or corrosion behind back panel (where brake lights are)
F)Parts of suspension; including nuts and bolts have been repainted. (Question: when do people paint their suspension a blend in color?)
G) There's more, but it's 1am and someone is pulling somebodies leg about the condition. It could still be a great car though. I'd make sure ALL the panels still have their original serial numbers...... Good Luck, Nitro

 

Most obvious - the flip up lights don't work. You would think the seller would take care of that before he sold it.

 

Gotta love that Maui blue. The seller first started trying to sell on Ebay for $13500. His current price is a lot lower but needs to come down a little more.

 

This is why I'm willing to buy a vehicle long distance; the info is out there if u just are willing to research for it. My IROC was a title clean, one family car, so they seem to have gotten together and agreed to rollback the mileage. But the extra body damage isn't spoken for.

Last month I went out to see about researcing for a newer Tacoma pickup trrck. I was flipping through some ads on Ebay and found this low mileage unit. For about$4000 cheaper. I didn't get any answers to my questions I sent. Long story short; something seemed wrong, so I started dismantling some of the Accsorries out of the pics. Behind the supercharger brackets and homemade air cleaner assembly was a huge bend on both sided of the shock towers.

You just gotta look close and ask the weird questions ( Like: that's a strange stain on the headliner.....) I ALWAYS bring a knowledgable friend in case I'm hung up .

 

hmm .. for something like this i'm really not trying to mess with something where things are misleading / being covered up...

started running some national CL searches and coming up with some solid finds .. problem is they're always 3000 miles away from me

any experience shipping cars, can it be a nightmare?

 

Shipping sucks. If you go to one of these sites for car shipping, you will have a bunch of people calling you to ship your car. But none of them have a carrier. They are brokers. They are just trying to make money on booking a carrier for you. They promise you the world and can't deliver. I had to get my car from Iowa to NY, and it sucked dealing with these guys.

 

i kinda figured it would be a total pain in the *** .. sigh .. why are all the tight ones in the midwest??

 

Hey, I am in the process of having a car shipped from MI to PA... I am using Reliable Carriers... I will let u know how it goes.. The thing is, the guy is going to drop the car off at their facility in MI and it may take anywhere from 1 -3 weeks to get here??? But it is an enclosed carrier, so I guess its worth the wait.. But then u pay for it all when the car gets to u.. They did not want a deposit... weird....

 

Carfax and autocheck are both clean. If it was hit and reconstructed, it was done on the owners dime.

The drivers door fits the opening, it is ajar in a couple of the pictures, and fully closed in others.

The bumpers look discolored, but so do the bumpers on almost every firebird with this color paint. The additive GM used on the bumpers often discolored the paint slightly. You can only see it in certain lighting conditions.

It does have dings and dents, and there is something goofy going on with the hatch but we can't rule out faulty motor or grandama backing into something.

I don't think it took a serious rear end hit. I think it's backed into the trash barrels or something similar more than once...


-- Joe

 

I can tell you the car has been up for auction at least 3 times over the past 5 or 6 weeks, and I think I saw it on Craigslist a while back too. I have looked at it on the ebay page and have to agree that something doesn't seem quite right. The history report says it's been in CA from 1988 to 2011 but now has Montana plates on it, even though the seller is still in CA. I don't have any direct information on the car but a lot of little things don't seem to add up. It's a nice looking car, I'd love to have a Formula 350 that color.

 

The only thing that doesn't add up is the price. It's a 88 firebird, not a '67.
It's worth about $2500 in as-seen condition. It's a hardtop car, with a bw 9 bolt. For the money the guy is asking, you could pick up a clean '67 if you want an older car, or a 01-02 LS1 t/a if you want something that drives nice.

-- Joe

 

The car looks decent but way overpriced.
In one picture I noticed the cruise contol cable on, then the one below it, it is off. There is also a dent in one of the wheel openings - seems like a strange spot for a dent. So much SILICONE on everything!
I think it looks like a wholesalers car.

ON -



OFF ---



DENT in Wheel opening

 

The dent in the wheel opening and the missing RH air dam probably happened at the same time - didn't stop soon enough pulling up against a parking stop.

 

I think it would be a good car to start with. He is strong on his number but he is a dealer so he has a profit margin. I'm sure a fair offer would take it though. I doubt you'd be able to buy it for $5k like some of you would want but think about if it was your car with that history. What would you want for it? Personally I woud'nt consider it due to the fact it has the body damage and original paint. You'd never get that blue to match back up.

 

yes and yes. i was looking for (and got) the exact thing you were looking for, but i got totally ripped off by a lying sack of shyte who is in the business of ripping people off on eBay. initially i was interested in this because i thought it might be the same guy - Add sounded similar.




buying a car sight unseen: i do not recomend it. i have learned through experience that if a car is worth 5, 6, 7, 8, or 10 grand to you, then it is worth a $350.00 plane ticket to go and check it out...and at least make sure the thing runs. my $7,000.00 '89 Formula 350 with 29,745 original miles - did not run. EVERYTHING needed to be overhauled because the car sat for about 20 years, hence the very low mileage. another word of advise: dont buy **** from anyone with the last name of Sleeth from Illinois.

shipping/transport: yes it can be a nightmare. you almost never want to go with the cheapest shipper. if you live somewhere off the beaten path, then you definitely dont want to go with the cheapest shipper because your car wont get shipped. auto transporters are basically contractors - you pay them, then they pay truck drivers some of the money you paid them after posting adds that the job (of transporting your car) is available. so, generally, the less you pay, the less the drivers are going to get, and depending on how out of the way you are located, most drivers wont consider it worthwhile to ship your car alone unless it can be picked up along the way as part of a bigger job. IMO, your best bet would be to go with a company that is as local as possible, and it is worth it to pay the extra money for a company that can get the job done in a timely fashion.

 

Yeah, or at least lower them by hand for the photos and say they don't work...when I see really obvious, easy-to-fix stuff like this, I start wondering about the quality of the rest of the repairs that have been done to the car...

 

$2500 for a 50k mile 350 car? I'm sorry, but you've got to be out of your gourd. Thinking like this is why our cars aren't worth anything, and why we need a monthly value thread.

I don't think the car is quite worth $10k, and for me the body damage is a deal-breaker, but I do think that is a very nice car to start with, and I think it's probably worth somewhere in the $7k range, plus or minus.

 

thanks for the input guys .. of course i'm not dropping $10k on something i've never driven

here's waiting for the perfect one in CA...

 

If I were in the market for a Formula, an '88 in maui blue would be at the very top of my list. I LOVE that color.

Definitely never buy a car sight unseen. If you can't see it in person, find someone to go look at it for you or fly to go see it. I just bought an '82 pace car sight unseen but was able to have friends in near the seller go look at it in person for me. so I had some confidence the deal was good.

This car seems nice, but the price is entirely too high given the obvious flaws. IMHO - $5k, maybe $6k, max IF the mileage is correct and everything else is perfect.

 

Welcome to the forum.

If guys are willing to pay 7k that's cool, that's great even. We always need people to make money from

Interesting history facts: They made 9,184 firebirds in that color in 1988, which is like the third most popular color out of just over 62,000 units. Of that, 20,000 units were trans-ams. A lot of the examples of that color I've seen have had the bottom two-tone scheme.

-- Joe



-- Joe

 

Things I noticed is that the headlights are up. They should be down since the lights arent on. You would have to find out why that is. Has quite a few dents and scratches. In the listing, he posted that is has the original tires on it. Clearly they are not the original tires. Looks like its had a rough 50,000 miles put on it. Has alot of documents which is a plus. I still wouldnt mind having it though. Price is pretty high for the condition it's in. With that many miles on it, I think it should still look like almost new. I would have to research it more before I bought it.

 

way too expensive, got my GTA for 3 grand less, with 50,000 miles..similar condition too, not perfect but nice. i did buy it in Canada 2 years ago so who knows maybe the demand for these went up or is higher in the states.

 

some of my comparable current craigslist finds

88 Formua 350, blue, 99k, $5500
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hn...842994461.html

89 Formula 350, t-top, red, 99k, $5800
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/cto/2850054627.html

89 formula, black repaint, 50k (??) $6500
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ws...789346500.html

90 formula 305, original, "show car", 56k, $12,500
http://desmoines.craigslist.org/cto/2810835224.html


89 350 l98, white, 105k, $5750
http://fortsmith.craigslist.org/cto/2866292232.html


91 formula 350, 25k miles (??), $8199
why all the new parts for only 25k miles?
http://quadcities.craigslist.org/cto/2789594777.html


89, white ttop, 79k, $5000
looks nice
http://springfieldil.craigslist.org/cto/2846481555.html


89 formula, 15k miles in storage, 2nd owner, $7900
http://sandusky.craigslist.org/cto/2846808166.html



there are a few others but these are the choice ones..

 

^ The 91 Formula 350 does have a lot of new parts for 25k miles. All of the work done could have a reasonable explanation - age. Except the headlight motors, I would expect them to still work, but I suppose they could also go bad just with age. The exhaust and air intake are obviously upgrades, not a replacements. If you're interested, I would ask if he still has the originals.

 

I usually base the market on how things are selling. There is a few cars on my local craigslist in that price range too, and they've been there since last summer.

A local guy I know is still in the salvage business (I got out a few years back), and he's still buying thirdgens in the condition you guys would consider 5k cars for well under 2k, and parting them out. In theory, eventually it will drive the price up as fewer clean examples will remain, but as the price of the LSx cars continue to fall I feel it will make the thirdgens (previously obtainable cars) less desirable.

I still love thirdgens, don't get me wrong. I just don't pay fools prices for things. I love fools too..

-- Joe

 

that bravada he is selling is beautiful OMG!

 

Yes, performance is part of the equation, but a 4th gen will not rival a 3rd gen for styling. And realistcally, looks are more important than performance to the average buyer.

 

I think the car is worth 7k ish fairly easy.
It does need headlights rebuilt. $25 and a few hrs of your time.
Bumpers rarely matched from the factory on any of these cars.
Id say its prolly 100% org paint.
the cruise control clip is missing, big deal. free at any junk yard. prolly knocked it off when the radiator and upper rad hose n clamps were replaced.
some dents and dings keep this from being a museum piece but then not many of these cars are.
I'm sure grandma backed into many many things. My grandpa was constantly running into stuff. his van never went over 10mph either. lol
Looks like decent tread left but ugly cheap tires.. make a great 1st set to get your burnouts on..
ah the pushing rearward hatch syndrome... VERY common, nothing that a rainy sat in the garage with some tools and a service manual couldnt fix.
I'm not sure how someone could tell if there was rust behind the taillights? Thats just silly. Judging by the rest of the car, they are lucky that the taillights and bumper are still on... jeeezzz
I hate that gray dash and those rear disc brakes with a passion.

 

In the video it sounds like a spark knock

 

i think that if you keep looking you will find a similar car for way less.. it's about timing. unless you're in a rush (spring is getting closer) wait it out.. wants waaay too much imo.

also, i agree about comparing fourth gens to thirds. no comparison unless it's a WS6 TA or Camaro SS (and obviously the TA/Formula Firehawks).. There is nothing special about the fourth gens in any way other than speed. And if that's an issue do the LS swap. I plan to in a couple years. I want an LS3 and figure by the time i'm ready to do it they'll be plentiful lol... No style at all to a Camaro Z28 from 93-2002... just a bubble looking run of the mill 2 door car.. so plain it's sad..

 

I was looked at fourth gens like a mid 90's
Chrysler Sebring with a V8

 

That opinion will differ from buyer to buyer. A lot of people still equate thirdgens with trailer parks, while a lot of other people think 4th gens look like neons.

-- Joe

 

Clean looking car. Ad sounds a little fishy and I would think that you'd want to go take a look at it. I bought my car on-line and don't regret it but it wasn't all it was advertised to be. That being said, you can make an offer for a lot lower than what is being asked for. If the offer is accepted, go take a look at it. Youn can always walk away. Secondly, I had 2 cars shipped from Califonia to Alabama with NO problems at all for about $800 each. It all depends on who is carrying the car. I would go take a look at the car.

 

yeah, i heard something funky as well...

 

I bought my RS here on TGO and got a great deal on it and it was a great experience.

That car... no WAY that thing is worth half of what he's asking.

It's NOT in great shape, it's just cleaned up. There's awful dents in teh wheel wells, some ugly looking dents on the back of the car. The TV cable is falling off. The headlight motors dont work.

And it's just a Formula 350. I love a Formula 350 car way more than a TA or a GTA, but honestly they were the bargain basement way to get into a 350 car. Doesnt have T-tops (I prefer that, but again, preference doesnt mean the car is worth more) and it has no unusual options that I can see.

I dont think there's anything fishy going on so much as they have a car that's a notch above being a beater, that just got cleaned up and buffed up real nice and happens to have lowish mileage on it.

 

So if that car is worth so little being a top of the line 350 car with low mileage, an intact interior, and a few cosmetic flaws on what's very likely an all original, unmolested body, what are the majority of members' cars here worth?

What's mine worth, five bucks?

 

It has various dents and dings in the body. It needs those to be repaired, and an entire paintjob to match. (nobody spot repairs that many defects). So unless your bringing your car to Macco, it's going to be about $5,000 for that work.

The interior is ok, but it's a hard top car. It is a L98, but a formula not a Trans-AM or GTA. Has electrical problems (lighting, who knows what)

Also, it failed an emissions test at it's last inspection, but was given a "pass" with no change in mileage. It could have a replacement converter, or a bottle of additive in the tank.

I stand at $2500. If the body was in good shape, it didn't need paint work, hatch work, dents pulled, mechanical/electrical work etc it would be worth a lot more.

And the only reason I'm saying it's worth that much is because of the low miles would be attractive to a thirdgen fan wanting a garage queen. If it had typical miles, in that shape, I'd probably pay.. Actually, I'd buy it as salvage and part it out. There is absolutely NO room for profit after fixing the body.

-- Joe

 

Wow, sorry but I totally disagree with a lot of what you said here.
Not even close to being a beater. The car is very clean and thats just not from a super detail, its from being garaged and clean all its life.
If you have ever seen a low milage car they do like that under the hood.
The front fender could be bent back by hand and look very presentable. They bend VERY easy. I could fart on one and dent it.
The dents on the rear quarter and paint scuffs on rear bumper could have been a parking lot hit and run. Its not bad enuff for much else.
As I said B4 20-25 bones to fix the headlights and free to 25cents to fix the clip on the cruise control. really out big bux there.
The interior is also very nice.
The car isnt rusty at all, so how is it not in good shape??? a few dents?
Just a Formula 350??? I don't understand that at all. Guys (like me) that want the formula just want a big motor and less cr@p hanging on the car slowing it down. (im a TTop guy but the hard tops ar a tad lighter, stiffer and faster.)

I don't get why some peeps are saying this is such a shady sale? If so, why do they have pix of all the faults ????
Its worth waay more than 2-3K, but 10k? not so much. its still a prolly a 6-7k ish car..
If I had the room I wouldn't have a problem flying out and driving it home.

 

Well I think this may now fall into the "beating a dead horse" category.

The listing has ended. The seller wanted $9,850.00 and the best offer (out of 3) he got was $8,500.00. Obviously the car was worth a decent amount of money but the seller thought is was worth more. The bottom line is that no matter how much we think our rides are worth they are only worth what someone will pay for them.

 

Beater? I think that's being way too harsh if you ask me. Amazing how people expect a 24 year old car to look like it just rolled off the showroom floor. This car appeared to me like an original vehicle that wasn't owned by an enthusiast but well kept nonetheless. Looks like it has all its original parts intact, which is better than a modified example any day.

That said, I too think it was priced too high. I know these cars are enjoying a resurgence lately but for 10k, I'd expect something with 30,000 miles, not 50,000. Personally, I'd have shot for the 6-7k range were I looking for a Formula. If he got up to 8.5k, that was definitely more than I'd have been willing to pay, and shows the car was definitely appealing to someone!

 

That being said..here's one on the flip side, and seems to be more of a "real deal" at 77,000 miles and currently in the $3,800 range. There would seem to be less of a question about its authenticity and condition.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...87846484982061

 

Sounds superficial but a Maui Blue Formula is going to be worth more than a brown T/A any day, especially in the wacky wide world of ebay, where glossy pics and razzle dazzle are what it's all about. And I say this as someone who really likes that Trans Am and would bid on it if I could stomach the color combo, which sadly I can't.

That said, the T/A is highly authentic down to its floor mats and striping. I also think the price is going to come in way under 5k. Will be a nice car for someone.

 

Like I said, this is the third time I've seen this car on ebay and I don't know why the seller won't take $8,500 for the car which I would say is not worth much better than $6000 based on what I can see in the photos and assuming it's really as advertised. I can't remember exactly what the highs bid were on the other auctions, but it wasn't near the $10k he was asking, that should tell him something.

 

As far as the body is concerned, my car was in MUCH better shape at 180k miles when I bought it than this thing is with all it's weird bizarre rear damage. It's just an RS, sure, but the TV cable wasnt falling off either. I've got a fair amount of door dings and wear and tear, but that thing has legitimate damage on it.

If the car were an RS with that damage what would you think about it? It will always be worth more than an RS because it's a formula 350, but condition is condition. It has it's bright spots but I wasnt that impressed with it. I was at first, not anymore.

And to be clear, I dont blame you for feeling the way you do about it, the car cleaned up NICE, and a lot of those low mileage car things are there. But I just got a crappy vibe from the way the TV cable fell off, the broken headlight motors, and the body damage. It was just a bit much for me to ever pay any kind "low mileage premium" on that car. But some people dont mind buying an expensive, low mileage, factory paint car, and then repairing bodywork and a lot of nagging issues afterwards. But the only reason I personally would spend the money on a low mileage, factory paint car is because it's in great shape to begin wtih.

 

I agree, some people are acting like the car was rolled, flipped, and totaled. That is easy bodywork if you are handy and can blend paint. My only concern is the tick sound. Maybe an exhaust leak? Other than the minor stuff its not a beater. Interior is mint most of all the dashpad and spoiler still in amazing shape!!!! my I guess.

 

Someone accidentally backed into something with it, not bizarre at all. My ex-wife backed into my work bench vice twice with my cars. The cars lost both times and walked away with little dings like the one on this. It happens.

And let's not forget that these cars weren't assembled with precision handbuilt care by master coachbuilder craftsmen. Things fell off them all the time, often shortly after delivery - clips, *****, covers, etc. I had an '87 Formula 350. My hatch struts were toast, the hatch pulldown worked when it wanted to, my fusebox door kept falling down, I had an on-again/off-again relationship with my tach, its brake lights shorted and stayed on, and its locks froze in the cold (requiring a climb through the hatch which would simultaniously try to crush my legs). Oh well. It was a Firebird, not a Bentley.

I think overall, this is a nice, well-preserved example. It's certainly not worth 10 grand, but if we were talking about 6-7k, I'd give it consideration.

 

Your really hung up on the cruise control cable thats missing a .25cent clip. lol Perhaps a tech just forgot to put it back on after a T-body cleaning?? Maybe it just broke and fell off? things happen
As far as the headlights, I had to rebuild mine 5yrs ago. From abuse? Nope, just old age. All good machines wear out some time..
The damage isnt really that bad. Cosmetic only. I could see if the roof looked like waded up aluminum foil or it was sitting on 3wheels. Grandmas just run into stuff!
The car was most likely washed, waxed, vac-d a given a quick detail.
Starting with a Clean lower mile garaged kept car is a lot easier to make look good than a 200,000k car..

As far as a RS goes, I honestly don't even look at them to buy unless its a B4C. Same goes with a base motor TBI formy or plain firebird.
Unless they are a reeeeeal low mile base car thats nice, I wouldn't be doing anything but a LS swap on these cars.

Wait till your 80 or so and take a look at your car then. I wonder if it will look like my 94 yr old grandmas car (yes she still drives!) with all the weird bizarre damage on hers? I still have NO clue how she did some of that stuff either! lol

 

Or perhaps the more likely scenario, it's frozen, and they have to remove it to actuate the throttle.

I appreciate the spirit of the hobby and all, but I've parted out more of these cars than most members have seen. I know all of their dark and dirty secrets, and while some folks that have owned one in their entire life and keep it as their prize possession, it's just an 80s car. Are some thirdgens worth a lot of money? yes.. Just not THIS one. If it was a lot mile TTA I'd feel very differently about this. It's a mid 80s formula. I used to buy cars in better shape than this to part out!

Which is why considering a car worth more because it has 50k, yet potentially has an engine knock, broken light motors, and other issues doesn't make much sense.

Cosmetic is the worst. I can replace drivetrains all day for short money. That car needs a front fender (only hacks "bang 'em out"), rear work, and a total paint job.. $5k unless it's getting done in the backyard with a paint roller. (yeah, I remember THAT thread!)

 

I don't think it needs a total paint job, just blending in this case since your working with a couple spots. I've seen worse on cars be fixed BELIEVE me on that one. My dad and metal to metal can work miracles! Headlights can be fixed for $25 bucks (thanks to hawks). I don't think the knock is anything to be afraid of though. Its not very loud if you watch the video. It doesn't sound like a rod knocking either.