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Old 01-12-2018, 10:01 PM   #1  
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Real or fake 1LE

Hi, I have a 1986 Firebird and I found a piece of paper in the dash pocket glove compartment thing and it said that it was a 1LE ws6 but I looked up the serial number on the under the windshield and nothing came up. So I looked up the production numbers for that year and it says that formulas weren't even made in 1986 so I know that that can't be right. I only though 1LE ws6 was a 4th gen thing. I am really confused hear so any help or thoughts would be nice.
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:29 PM   #2  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

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Originally Posted by 86Formula/Iroc View Post
Hi, I have a 1986 Firebird and I found a piece of paper in the dash pocket glove compartment thing and it said that it was a 1LE ws6 but I looked up the serial number on the under the windshield and nothing came up. So I looked up the production numbers for that year and it says that formulas weren't even made in 1986 so I know that that can't be right. I only though 1LE ws6 was a 4th gen thing. I am really confused hear so any help or thoughts would be nice.
The Formula was not available until the 1987 model year. So if you have a 1986, you don't have a Formula. Because Firebird and Formula share the same 1G2FS VIN prefix they are sometimes mixed up and used incorrectly.

Regarding 1LE, yes, it was available on the Third Gen. But since you have a 1986, that's likely not a factor.
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:45 PM   #3  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

1LE appeared in about 88, but was VERY rare then. Esp in Firebirds which of course were boulevard cruisers not race cars at that point in time. Became more common later.

It includes the 88-up (although VERY rare in 88, more like 89-up) brakes, mostly.

It didn't exist in 86.

WS6 has been a suspension option for many decades. At least as far back as the early 80s, long before they put big gaudy badges on Firebirds (big... gaudy ... Firebird... who woulda thought) that said it. Pretty sure both my 78 and 79 Z28s had it. What POSs, glad I traded in my 79 4-spd Z28 on my 83 L69 Z28. The 83 would RUN CIRCLES around the 79, even though I had put 186 heads on the 79, and a 4.10 gear. I hated seeing those heads go away but given that the POS block in the 79 had just EATEN the 3rd cam and lifter set in it that I know of, typical for 70s blocks, I thought a 69-70 station wagon set of heads was a small price yo psyfor sending that POS on down the road in favor of one of THESE cars. I kept the 78 as a work truck until I just couldn't stand what a pig it was anymore, finally sold it for like $1500 in around 86 or so. Time will tell eventually.

Nor did "Formula". That marketing slogan disappeared around 1971 or 2 and didn't reappear until around 88. So, your 86, no matter what stickers are on it or what the seller told you, ISN'T that. Could possibly be a really nice car, and all such as that; but NOT, "1LE", or "Formula".

Post up a photo of the SPID label, and then lots of people here, MUCH more knowledgeable than me, can tell you what you have. Esp the Firebird people. Ever since that car came out, the people who buy them, seem more interested in stuff like that, than... HOW GOOD IS MY CAR, or that sort of thing, than "how 'rare' is my car". What a bunch of spank-off. Those guys will all tell you endlessly that their car is "worth" [whatever], and they got it for [however much less], but nobody will pay [whatever they think it's "worth" now], because nobody knows that the kaopectate green body came with the baby puke tan seats and the AM-only radio instead of the AM/FM/8-track/CB combo unless it was "triggered" by [fill in random 3-letter RPO code here], never mind that it was UTT BUCKING FUGLY in 1973 and THAT'S why NOBODY paid anywhere near full price for it off of a new-car lot and THAT'S why in 2018 it's "rare". Been that way since 1970 that I know of, maybe before, maybe all the way back to 67, I wasn't paying attention to Firebird donkey-loafing back then, all of us who gave a rat's a$$ were paying attention to Z28 because THAT was a RACE CAR whereas the Firebirds were, and always remained, a pretender; just an overweight, blubbered-up vanity symbol for 8-yr-olds. But aside from all that monkey-spank and chicken-choking, they're real good at knowing what cars came with what options, and when they started, and stuff like that, if you can just ignore all the bishop-buffing.

So yeah, you don't have a 86 Formula, no matter what the seller told you. And it doesn't have a "vette" motor, and didn't come with "fuelie" this that or the other, or any of that. Doesn't have "1LE" but may very well have come with WS6 since that meant pretty much the top-of-the-line suspension options in the particular year. (some years it was YUUUUJJJJE, some years it was a pittance, in 86 it was somewhere in between) Could be a TERRIFIC GREAT car, could be BEAUTIFUL and phenomenal and whatever, just, all the rest of that, is bull exhaust. Don't get stars in your eyes just yet, and don't get all "they scrooood me" either, it's just an old car. Odds are, whatever it came as, it's not that anymore anyway.

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Old 01-12-2018, 11:00 PM   #4  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

Thats true. I'll do some more research on it and I will post up a pic. Thanks.
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:09 PM   #5  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE



This is the car it is a 305 tpi car and it says right on the hood. I'll have to check the door to see what year the car is. It also has the factory turbo hood that came on those formulas. I also took the spoiler off because it went to crap.

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Old 01-12-2018, 11:17 PM   #6  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

Quote:
Yes it does have a Iroc hatch on it. The stock hatch had bubbly paint where the spoiler was.
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:24 PM   #7  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

Looks about right for an 87 Formula. The decals are in the wrong spot, so it could be pieced together. Doesn't matter much really.
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:29 PM   #8  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

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it says right on the hood
Of course, we can't see the hood, but...

Stickerzzz are cheeeeeeeeper than carzzzz. Been that way as long as I can remember. There's A SHIPLOAD more 69 Z28s in the world now than there were in 69; A SHIPLOAD more 71 "vette" "LT/1" motors than there ever were 71 Vettes; A SHIPLOAD more "69 Camaro" 350 blocks in the world now than there were 69 Camaros; and so on. You oughtta try to buy a 65 GTO sometime: there's AT LEAST 5 times ad many clonezzzzz as there were in 65. Mecum and Barrett-Jackson are full of em.

Looks like a mostly OK car NOW, needs some work but not tragic, a little body work already here and there sme of which is ... less than perfect if not laughable, but hard to tell what it CAME AS. Those can be 2 very different things. A photo of the SPID label (blank out the VIN to avoid ... creeeeeeeeps ...) will tell all.

10th digit of the VIN is the year. F is 86, G 87, etc. What's that one?

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Old 01-12-2018, 11:36 PM   #9  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

Yeah she's in good shape except the bumper cover and the stone chips its rust free except a little rust on the corners of the passenger side door it needs repainted though. Where should the decals be placed if its a formula.
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:38 PM   #10  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

Further back.
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:50 PM   #11  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

So is it a base model v8 or what is it. It has all the performance sound and performance suspension decals and stuff.
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:52 PM   #12  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

Post up the first 12 digits of the VIN but NOT the ones after that. The 8th is the original engine. The 11th is the assy plant, most likely L for Van Nuys but might be N for Norwood if it's a 86 or 87. The 12th is a "check digit", some sort of checksum to validate the rest of it. The ones after the 12th are the serial number of your car and should never be put online. The 12th is generally 0 or 1 for Camaro, 6 for Firebird. At least in most years. Pretty sure it was that way in 86. They're the same car, made in the same plants, on the same production lines, out of the same parts, except for cosmetics and cupholders and such.

Some of the Bird people will be able to tell you about those specific decals, may even have the templates that the factory replacement ones came with, to line them up to whatever features of the car. I know when I bought new ones for my Camaro back in the day that's how they worked... they came on a YUUUUUJJJJJE sheet of that funky brown waxed/plastic paper, and you were supposed to put the alignment marks on whatever, and then apply the sticker to wherever the paper made it land.
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:57 PM   #13  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

Okay thanks I'll post vin tomorrow. Thanks.
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:58 PM   #14  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE



Now there is a pic of the hood I just had to find a pic.
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Old 01-13-2018, 10:16 AM   #15  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

Looks like a 87 formula, I'd think it could have a build date of late 1986 on the door decal if its original to the car..
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Old 01-13-2018, 10:21 AM   #16  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

1LE showed up in 1988.



Looks like an 87 Formula based upon wheels, etc.
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Old 01-13-2018, 10:22 AM   #17  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

The vin that is on windshield is 1G2F W21E 0HN2 I think thats what was needed. Those 12 numbers

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Old 01-13-2018, 11:10 AM   #18  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

87 if I'm reading your VIN correctly, it has 87 down V-belts and air induction setup.

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Old 01-13-2018, 11:45 AM   #19  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

It does say its a 1986 on the door so it might be a 1987 like you said Ttop350. What are V belts and air induction is that the air dam under the car.
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Old 01-13-2018, 01:00 PM   #20  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

H would be 87. A is 80.

Your car might have parts such as doors, hoods, etc. off of various different cars; since there's so much interchange, almost anything is possible. The pass side headlight cover for example is obviously from some other car. Looks like it's been repainted (without putting flex additive in for the bumper cover), so there's no telling what might have been needed to prep it for that.

V-belts = the old-style ones that drive the fan, alt, PS, WP etc. 86-back, they had multiple narrow "V" style. In 87 the alt/WP one became the wide ribbed style, but it wasn't the serpentine ("snake-like") style of drive, it still had several belts, with the others still being the "V" kind. 88-up, all the accessories were on one serpentine belt, and some accessories swapped sides of the motor.

Air induction = the box that the air filter is in and the duct leading from that to the throttle body

Probably close to half of all 87 cars would have actually have a build date in 86. They do the model year changeover in July, to be able to have the new model year stocked in dealer showrooms by around Labor Day.
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Old 01-13-2018, 01:42 PM   #21  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

What should the head light cover look like because I bought the black piece because I cracked the old one but it was for an 86 so maybe thats why it looks different. Do you mean the doors look different. It has electric fans but it does have 2 belts one drives the crank to the water pump to the power steering and the 2nd goes from the crank to the water pump to the alternator. It does have the air box to the tpi and it has the original engine in it. I looked up the vin and it is a 1987 formula built in Norwich. So at least its a formula.

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Old 01-13-2018, 03:03 PM   #22  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

Quote:
What should the head light cover look like
It's not so much that; it's that the paint doesn't even come close to matching.

I didn't say the doors look different. Only, that if they say "86", it's entirely possible that it/they came off of a 86 car as part of fixing up or wreck repair or whatever before it was last painted, since they're the same as 87.

Quote:
it does have 2 belts one drives the crank to the water pump to the power steering and the 2nd goes from the crank to the water pump to the alternator
Which means that it's missing one... there should be a 3rd that goes around the crank, PS, & AC, and maybe the WP. Can't recall for sure whether it does or not in that system.

The N plant, by the way, is Norwood, not Norwich. A "suburb" of Cincinnati, actually pretty much in the center of town nowadays. It's where Xavier University is.
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Old 01-13-2018, 05:10 PM   #23  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

That picture from the front was through a Instagram filter but the head light was stuck up and sat for a while and it faded I agree the car looks like crap the clear coat is trash. It did have three belts but I took it off the a/c pump since I never used the a/c and it gives ya a little bit more hp with the less your belts drive. And with t-tops who needs a/c.

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Old 01-13-2018, 11:31 PM   #24  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

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Originally Posted by 86Formula/Iroc View Post
The vin that is on windshield is 1G2F W21E 0HN2 I think thats what was needed. Those 12 numbers
whats weird about this vin is it shows its a 1987 with a l03 engine .. i thought the 87's got the lg4 or the tpi and they started the l03 in 1988 ..
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Old 01-13-2018, 11:48 PM   #25  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

And the VIN prefix of 1G2FW is a Trans Am or GTA, not a Formula or base Firebird. So either the VIN was supplied wrong or it doesn't belong to that car.

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whats weird about this vin is it shows its a 1987 with a l03 engine .. i thought the 87's got the lg4 or the tpi and they started the l03 in 1988 ..
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Old 01-13-2018, 11:49 PM   #26  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

The 1986 WS6 cars had the 36MM sway bar combo. About the only 1LE thing about them.
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Old 01-15-2018, 12:35 PM   #27  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

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whats weird about this vin is it shows its a 1987 with a l03 engine .. i thought the 87's got the lg4 or the tpi and they started the l03 in 1988 ..
Yes.
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Old 01-15-2018, 01:04 PM   #28  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

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Originally Posted by Big&BadGTA View Post
1LE showed up in 1988.
But only as a TA from Pontiac - 3 were built.

The 1LE Formulas were limited to 91 & 92, a total of 63 were produced between the two years.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/hist...es-number.html

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Old 01-18-2018, 10:30 PM   #29  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

Quote:
Originally Posted by 86Formula/Iroc View Post
The vin that is on windshield is 1G2F W21E 0HN2 I think thats what was needed. Those 12 numbers
The car does look like a 1987 Formula(which could show a build date of late 1986 on the door jamb label), but you should re-examine that VIN very, very carefully. Sometimes the numbers and letters can be very difficult to read, and a couple of yours don't add-up.

Can't imagine mistaking a W for an S, though. But as mentioned, if the W is correct, then it represents the car as a Trans Am or GTA, not a base Firebird or Formula. An S in that location would indicate a base Firebird or Formula.

The E can't be right either, if the car is an 87. But the E could easily have been mistaken for an F, or maybe even an 8. E would indicate that it has the throttle body fuel injection, which wasn't available until 1988. Also as mentioned, 1LE wasn't available until 1988 too.

There should be 7 or 8(or more) stickers with VINs in other locations around the car: on the driver's door jamb label, on the passenger door jamb, underside of the hood(near the front), underside of the rear deck of the hatch(which you apparently no longer have on the car anymore), on the inner side of each front fender(forward of the wheel well), on the top of the front impact bar inside the headlight bucket area, and on the bottom of the rear impact bar(might have to pull away the bottom edge of the bumper cover to see it); might even be one on the inner side of each quarter panel too. All of them should have the VIN on them if they're original panels. The stickers should be about 3" long and about 1/2" tall.
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Old 01-19-2018, 02:10 AM   #30  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

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There should be 7 or 8(or more) stickers with VINs in other locations around the car
Pretty sure the anti-chop shop stickers started in 1987 MY. Not sure when they stopped using them, but I've never seen one on the pile of 86's and 91's I've owned. I'd expect that they peaked about the same time as VATS when thirdgens were stupid simple to steal, and were worth stealing.
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Old 01-19-2018, 10:46 AM   #31  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

That should be easy to check for on the hatch since its just sitting is my garage wrapped in towels. The vin is kinda rusty and I did have a hard time identifying the letters and numbers but I will look again. I don't think the vin on the windshield could have been altered because the windshield has never been taken off and its under the windshield. I will look around some more and repost if I find anything different.
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Old 01-20-2018, 09:35 PM   #32  
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Re: Real or fake 1LE

Yes, I believe the body panel stickers did begin in 1987. So if the car has them, then it's, at least, a 1987.

Also check the valve covers. <1986 had perimeter bolt valve covers, while 1987< had center bolt valve covers. So assuming the engine is original to the car, then that would be a way to determine if the car is an <86 Formula-clone or an 87< Formula-possible. If <86, then the engine would be a 305. But if an 87<, then the engine could be a 305(VIN F) or a 350(VIN 8), depending upon your positive identification of the engine code in the VIN, where you thought it had an E.

Also assuming that the engine is original to the car, being a TPI, then it must be an 87< Formula or a converted Trans Am(if the W in the VIN is correct), as base Firebirds could not receive the TPI engine, and the Formula model did not exist until 1987.

But if the W in the VIN is positively correct, then someone spent a lot of time and money changing the car from a Trans Am to a Formula.

So your positive identification of the rusty VIN and/or the body panel stickers will tell the tale.
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