What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
#1801
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Car: '89 Firebird
Engine: 7.0L
Transmission: T56
Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
RPM built 4L70E Level VI. Bought this from a friend that decided to change to manual trans. Has only 5K miles and lived easy behind a LS2. I know the history, I know the miles, I know what it is. Couldn't say no.
Came with a thermostat controlled oil cooler and a Precision 9.5" single disc converter. Gotta learn more to figure out what to do next, I'm a real rookie with this auto trans stuff.
Came with a thermostat controlled oil cooler and a Precision 9.5" single disc converter. Gotta learn more to figure out what to do next, I'm a real rookie with this auto trans stuff.
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Car: Resto-Mod 1987 IROC-Z Clone
Engine: Alky fed L92 Vortec Twin-Turbo 6.8L
Transmission: My own built/ design 4L80M
Axle/Gears: Custom 12 bolt (4.10:1)
Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
Good luck little Transmission!
I am happy to see that you have the Early (Pre-2009 Design) Valve Body and Electronics...
The Later Design with the Internal Mode Switch is a Pain In The ***!
I heard that Holley EFI just started supporting the Late Design (Most Products ONLY support the Early Design).
Meh...
If it were up to me, I would have cancelled the THM700-R4 instead of the THM200-4R.
I would have really liked to see the THM200-4R be Updated into something modern (Like the 4L60E ended up)...
The THM200-4R is really just a Smaller 4L80E without the Electronics/ Updates.
The "Mini-4L80"!
I am happy to see that you have the Early (Pre-2009 Design) Valve Body and Electronics...
The Later Design with the Internal Mode Switch is a Pain In The ***!
I heard that Holley EFI just started supporting the Late Design (Most Products ONLY support the Early Design).
Meh...
If it were up to me, I would have cancelled the THM700-R4 instead of the THM200-4R.
I would have really liked to see the THM200-4R be Updated into something modern (Like the 4L60E ended up)...
The THM200-4R is really just a Smaller 4L80E without the Electronics/ Updates.
The "Mini-4L80"!
#1803
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Car: '89 Firebird
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
How much torque can the lockup clutch handle, and what are the rules for engaging & disengaging? My understanding is not much torque but I've never seen a spec. 30% throttle is a whole different meaning with my engine than a stock LS2. I'm starting from bonehead level here, too much explanation is probably just right.
#1804
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Car: Resto-Mod 1987 IROC-Z Clone
Engine: Alky fed L92 Vortec Twin-Turbo 6.8L
Transmission: My own built/ design 4L80M
Axle/Gears: Custom 12 bolt (4.10:1)
Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
How much torque can the lockup clutch handle, and what are the rules for engaging & disengaging? My understanding is not much torque but I've never seen a spec. 30% throttle is a whole different meaning with my engine than a stock LS2. I'm starting from bonehead level here, too much explanation is probably just right.
We designed the Torque Converter Lock-Up Systems to Unlock when there is any load detected (this was to prolong the life the the Lock-Up Clutch).
Only the Multi-Disc Versions are intended to handle any amount of load.
#1805
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#1806
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
But, how is it that guys are chassis dyno testing and forcing lockup in 2nd or 3rd gear and giving it the beans?
I'd be afraid of finding all of that clutch material in the transmission pan.
#1807
Senior Member
Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
You need a multi disc converter to be able to handle the load of lockup under power. My 4l80e is built for that kind of abuse and I've got a triple disc Circle D converter pro billet 258mm
#1808
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
The first one is: How much do you like removing and replacing your transmission? If you're anything like me then the answer to that is, you don't!
The next question is: What do you know about the performance of that particular converter and how that would translate into your particular combination of parts? Check out a torque converter recommendation form (from the likes of Yank or Precision) to see the variables involved with spec'ing a converter.
Another question might be: What's the ultimate goal in switching to an automatic? Do you want to see a personal best time slip? Or maybe an effortless cruise where your computer does your cruise shifting with one tune and your WOT shifting with another?
The last question is: How much do you like removing and replacing your transmission?
#1809
Supreme Member
Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
I'm not dismissing the need for a multi-disc clutch. This is something I'll be considering as I'd like to see lockup in overdrive and WOT if the Silver State Challenge and I ever cross paths.
But what been reported that's to the contrary in a couple of other threads makes me scratch my head.
#1810
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
I'm in total agreement and yet from what I've read from folks local to this forum is that they're giving it a go with their off the shelf everyday converter.
I'm not dismissing the need for a multi-disc clutch. This is something I'll be considering as I'd like to see lockup in overdrive and WOT if the Silver State Challenge and I ever cross paths.
But what been reported that's to the contrary in a couple of other threads makes me scratch my head.
I'm not dismissing the need for a multi-disc clutch. This is something I'll be considering as I'd like to see lockup in overdrive and WOT if the Silver State Challenge and I ever cross paths.
But what been reported that's to the contrary in a couple of other threads makes me scratch my head.
#1811
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
I've a manual lockup function (as well as automatically) and that risk, of having to pull another transmission, is what's kept me from experimenting.
That said, on a personal note, I've a new (to me) converter that's still not track tested. I'm eager to see how it delivers on track however I know that it's just an off the shelf part and that there may be one more transmission re and re in my future. A spec converter is definitely the way to go. I've seen the back to back testing.
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Car: 1987 IROC-Z
Engine: 406 on N20 w/ EFI
Transmission: P.B. 700R4
Axle/Gears: 12 bolt w/ 3.91
Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
I had a chat with Dave Meyers (owner and creator of Yank performance Converters) just in early August when we were spec'ing out my new 3800 converter and I made sure to ask him his advice on the triple disc or single disc for the lockup and he explained that the triple disc gives the lockup a more "soft" feeling, but the single disc is where its at for locking it up reliably under moderate and stronger throttle. So, I went with the single disc for lockup and its been great during this past month, both on the highway and at the dragstrip where I have locked it up under WOT and on nitrous too.
#1813
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Car: '89 Firebird
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
(It's the other way around, IROCZman.) The single friction disc is only suitable for locking up converter while cruising, meant for fuel efficiency gain. The clutch can be made to perform better with different friction materials and stiffer rear covers, I'm not sure exactly what Yank does. The multi-disc converters have more holding torque for towing applications and stuff like that. But I think a naturally aspirated engine tends to run quicker at the drag strip non-locked so maybe that's why they set you up with a single disc. Heck, last week I thought the "disc" was a turbine blade or something, didn't even know converters had clutches in them, so I'm in my learning curve too!
This series of videos by Hughs helped me some (get your caffeine fix though, it's BORING....)
Drag racing lock-up torque converters are a different animal. Those are waaaaaay beyond anything we'll ever use in our cars.
I also found these two videos most helpful to grasp how a converter works. The first video in particular does a good job explaining what the stator does. The second has a physical demo of how a fluid coupler works. Gotta love the GI training video.
This series of videos by Hughs helped me some (get your caffeine fix though, it's BORING....)
Drag racing lock-up torque converters are a different animal. Those are waaaaaay beyond anything we'll ever use in our cars.
I also found these two videos most helpful to grasp how a converter works. The first video in particular does a good job explaining what the stator does. The second has a physical demo of how a fluid coupler works. Gotta love the GI training video.
Last edited by QwkTrip; 10-23-2022 at 09:25 PM.
#1814
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Car: Resto-Mod 1987 IROC-Z Clone
Engine: Alky fed L92 Vortec Twin-Turbo 6.8L
Transmission: My own built/ design 4L80M
Axle/Gears: Custom 12 bolt (4.10:1)
Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
That Second Video from Hughes shows a common multi-disc Lock-Up Torque Converter design that many of my "Drag Week" style racing Customers would use.
I have never used one from Hughes, but that particular Torque Converter resembles what I would normally purchase from Neal Chance Torque Converters.
Some of the faster NHRA Classes (similar to Pro-Modified) will have a Lock-Up Clutch Torque Converter with a Lenco-Drive Transmission...
They use something like you see in that Hughes Video, but with 8 Clutches and Steels (maybe even more now).
I have never used one from Hughes, but that particular Torque Converter resembles what I would normally purchase from Neal Chance Torque Converters.
Some of the faster NHRA Classes (similar to Pro-Modified) will have a Lock-Up Clutch Torque Converter with a Lenco-Drive Transmission...
They use something like you see in that Hughes Video, but with 8 Clutches and Steels (maybe even more now).
#1815
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Car: '89 Firebird
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
The old girl right before being put away for the winter. This year marks 30 years of ownership.
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#1816
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Car: Resto-Mod 1987 IROC-Z Clone
Engine: Alky fed L92 Vortec Twin-Turbo 6.8L
Transmission: My own built/ design 4L80M
Axle/Gears: Custom 12 bolt (4.10:1)
Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
That is awesome!
I am guessing that you are the second owner...
Since the longest the original owner could have had the Car is until 1992.
I am guessing that you are the second owner...
Since the longest the original owner could have had the Car is until 1992.
#1817
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Car: '89 Firebird
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
Yeah, second owner. Car was 3 years old and it was the first car I ever bought. I'll never forget the the guy I bought it from because he wore a turban and smoked a pipe and his name was Mustafa Mustafa, a name so good he used it twice. He maybe never forgot me either, the kid that paid in cash and drove away in a manual trans car with no experience. I doubt he's still alive, but if he was then he would probably be shocked the car gave me decades of enjoyment.
Last edited by QwkTrip; 10-31-2022 at 12:51 AM.
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Car: '90 RS
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
Car looks great, even with the Ford in the background, jk. Time to start making your winter plans list.
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
Spring is here and my Holley HP ECM decided to go on the fritz again. This time it did more than run like crap, the engine stopped running instantly without warning and would not restart. I tried to hook up the laptop to capture a datalog but it would not sync. I was a couple blocks from home and rolled downhill part way, pushed uphill part way (fun stuff), and then got the engine started and hoofed it for home as quickly as I could. Obviously pushing inspired me to keep trying to get it running.
I have no idea what is the issue. Laptop sync'd at home and I couldn't get it to happen again during a datalog. (That would be another checkmark in the win column for a GM ECM because it would have had diagnostics stored.) I checked fuses for hairline cracks and shook the harness like mad and it would not misbehave again. Loaded the latest firmware and re-flashed my engine config. Odd thing is that it didn't save the config properly the first time and I had to load it twice.
So now it's the waiting game to see what happens.... and there's only one way to find out and that is to drive somewhere to get stranded.
I have no idea what is the issue. Laptop sync'd at home and I couldn't get it to happen again during a datalog. (That would be another checkmark in the win column for a GM ECM because it would have had diagnostics stored.) I checked fuses for hairline cracks and shook the harness like mad and it would not misbehave again. Loaded the latest firmware and re-flashed my engine config. Odd thing is that it didn't save the config properly the first time and I had to load it twice.
So now it's the waiting game to see what happens.... and there's only one way to find out and that is to drive somewhere to get stranded.
#1820
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
And coincidentally, after gobs of research and planning and the usual indecisiveness, I finally started to build an engine harness from scratch!
I've decided to start this journey with some bad cinematography using a very old phone.
I've decided to start this journey with some bad cinematography using a very old phone.
Last edited by QwkTrip; 04-12-2023 at 09:27 PM.
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#1821
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
Spring is here and my Holley HP ECM decided to go on the fritz again. This time it did more than run like crap, the engine stopped running instantly without warning and would not restart. I tried to hook up the laptop to capture a datalog but it would not sync. I was a couple blocks from home and rolled downhill part way, pushed uphill part way (fun stuff), and then got the engine started and hoofed it for home as quickly as I could. Obviously pushing inspired me to keep trying to get it running.
I have no idea what is the issue. Laptop sync'd at home and I couldn't get it to happen again during a datalog. (That would be another checkmark in the win column for a GM ECM because it would have had diagnostics stored.) I checked fuses for hairline cracks and shook the harness like mad and it would not misbehave again. Loaded the latest firmware and re-flashed my engine config. Odd thing is that it didn't save the config properly the first time and I had to load it twice.
So now it's the waiting game to see what happens.... and there's only one way to find out and that is to drive somewhere to get stranded.
I have no idea what is the issue. Laptop sync'd at home and I couldn't get it to happen again during a datalog. (That would be another checkmark in the win column for a GM ECM because it would have had diagnostics stored.) I checked fuses for hairline cracks and shook the harness like mad and it would not misbehave again. Loaded the latest firmware and re-flashed my engine config. Odd thing is that it didn't save the config properly the first time and I had to load it twice.
So now it's the waiting game to see what happens.... and there's only one way to find out and that is to drive somewhere to get stranded.
#1822
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
Here is some more info about the DRB 60-position connector I am using for body pass-thru.
I optioned for the reduced seal version (extra thin wire). This gives correct seal compression to TXL wire for water sealing of the unit. Range of wire diameter is shown on the part drawing, DRB reduced seal part drawing
With reduced seals,
Size 20 terminal positions, 1.016 - 2.413 mm wire insulation
Size 16 terminal positions, 1.346 - 3.048 mm wire insulation
I selected the keyway 'A' because the parts were available at the time. Application guide, DRB Application Guide (114-151021)
Housing: DRB12-60PAE-L018 (interior side, uses male terminals)
Housing: DRB16-60SAE-L018 (exterior side, uses female terminals)
Wedge Lock: WB-60PA (for interior housing with male terminals)
Wedge Lock: WB-60SA (for exterior housing with female terminals)
Mounting Flange: DRBF-2B
Terminal pins and sockets compatibilities are shown below for nickel plated terminals. Cherish this chart, it took me a lot of work to pull this together. If you end up with unused terminal cavities, then the part numbers of plugs are listed in the application guide linked above. Wire strip lengths are described in the Application guide for Deutsch solid contacts, Deutsch solid contacts (114-151004)
Tools are listed in the Deutsch product catalog beginning on page 182, Deutsch Product Catalog
There are essentially two choices of crimp tools within reach of us mere mortals.
If you want to go crazy then you can look at the tools Daniels Manufacturing sells, www.dmctools.com . They are the manufacturer of the specialty tools to meet military specifications and the AutoSport product lineup.
I optioned for the reduced seal version (extra thin wire). This gives correct seal compression to TXL wire for water sealing of the unit. Range of wire diameter is shown on the part drawing, DRB reduced seal part drawing
With reduced seals,
Size 20 terminal positions, 1.016 - 2.413 mm wire insulation
Size 16 terminal positions, 1.346 - 3.048 mm wire insulation
I selected the keyway 'A' because the parts were available at the time. Application guide, DRB Application Guide (114-151021)
Housing: DRB12-60PAE-L018 (interior side, uses male terminals)
Housing: DRB16-60SAE-L018 (exterior side, uses female terminals)
Wedge Lock: WB-60PA (for interior housing with male terminals)
Wedge Lock: WB-60SA (for exterior housing with female terminals)
Mounting Flange: DRBF-2B
Terminal pins and sockets compatibilities are shown below for nickel plated terminals. Cherish this chart, it took me a lot of work to pull this together. If you end up with unused terminal cavities, then the part numbers of plugs are listed in the application guide linked above. Wire strip lengths are described in the Application guide for Deutsch solid contacts, Deutsch solid contacts (114-151004)
Tools are listed in the Deutsch product catalog beginning on page 182, Deutsch Product Catalog
There are essentially two choices of crimp tools within reach of us mere mortals.
- DET12, DET16, DET20: These are the least expensive crimp tools and come in a set of 3 that are capable of crimping the common terminals (no stripes) in size 20, 16, and 12. I think ToolAid (www.toolaid.com) is maybe the manufacturer and you can buy these tools directly from them in a kit that also comes with other tools you will need to assemble / disassemble Deutsch connectors. This will do everything you need if you choose the right wire sizes for the crimp.
- HDT-48-00: For about $300, you can have a premium Deutsch tool that comes with a calibration certificate. This tool has separate adjustments for terminal sizes and wire sizes, and can crimp all the terminals listed in the chart above. Crimp settings are listed on the part drawing, HDT-48-00 Part Drawing. This tool is useful if you want to fit unusual wire sizes into a terminal cavity, or just want a more refined crimp optimized for wire size. I initially bought the ToolAid stuff but eventually gave in and bought the HDT-48-00 because of some special crimps I wanted to perform.
If you want to go crazy then you can look at the tools Daniels Manufacturing sells, www.dmctools.com . They are the manufacturer of the specialty tools to meet military specifications and the AutoSport product lineup.
Last edited by QwkTrip; 01-06-2024 at 04:08 AM.
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#1823
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
Here is information about the connectors to the Holley ECM.
ECM uses a SuperSeal 1.0 family of connector. All part numbers of connectors and terminals are in this thread, https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/ltx-...lectrical.html
The crimp tool is $500. Forget that!!! A crimp tool for Micro-Pack 100W does an excellent job (same tool as used for LS1 411 ECM). DO NOT confuse this with the Micro-Pack 100, that is a different product with an even smaller crimp and the tool will over crimp.
Also, a crimp tool for Metri-Pack 150 doesn't appear to work well for me. The width is wrong and the crimp tends to be too large and loose, or pancakes it too flat if you tighten up on it.
@vorteciroc sells custom terminals that are a hybrid of the Superseal 1.0 and the Deutsch solid contacts, and use the same crimp tools I am using for the Deutsch DRB connector. I am using these "vorteciroc terminals" for all my 20/22 AWG wires at the ECM. The 18 AWG size is not yet available, so for that I am using the genuine Superseal 1.0 terminals with Delphi Micro-Pack 100W crimp tool 12125080. That Delphi tool is only for 18 AWG wire, but could be used with the 20/22 wires in a pinch by double folding the wires in the terminal.
ECM uses a SuperSeal 1.0 family of connector. All part numbers of connectors and terminals are in this thread, https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/ltx-...lectrical.html
The crimp tool is $500. Forget that!!! A crimp tool for Micro-Pack 100W does an excellent job (same tool as used for LS1 411 ECM). DO NOT confuse this with the Micro-Pack 100, that is a different product with an even smaller crimp and the tool will over crimp.
Also, a crimp tool for Metri-Pack 150 doesn't appear to work well for me. The width is wrong and the crimp tends to be too large and loose, or pancakes it too flat if you tighten up on it.
@vorteciroc sells custom terminals that are a hybrid of the Superseal 1.0 and the Deutsch solid contacts, and use the same crimp tools I am using for the Deutsch DRB connector. I am using these "vorteciroc terminals" for all my 20/22 AWG wires at the ECM. The 18 AWG size is not yet available, so for that I am using the genuine Superseal 1.0 terminals with Delphi Micro-Pack 100W crimp tool 12125080. That Delphi tool is only for 18 AWG wire, but could be used with the 20/22 wires in a pinch by double folding the wires in the terminal.
Last edited by QwkTrip; 04-13-2023 at 02:00 AM.
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vorteciroc (04-13-2023)
#1824
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
Spring is here and my Holley HP ECM decided to go on the fritz again. This time it did more than run like crap, the engine stopped running instantly without warning and would not restart. I tried to hook up the laptop to capture a datalog but it would not sync. I was a couple blocks from home and rolled downhill part way, pushed uphill part way (fun stuff), and then got the engine started and hoofed it for home as quickly as I could. Obviously pushing inspired me to keep trying to get it running.
I have no idea what is the issue. Laptop sync'd at home and I couldn't get it to happen again during a datalog. (That would be another checkmark in the win column for a GM ECM because it would have had diagnostics stored.) I checked fuses for hairline cracks and shook the harness like mad and it would not misbehave again. Loaded the latest firmware and re-flashed my engine config. Odd thing is that it didn't save the config properly the first time and I had to load it twice.
So now it's the waiting game to see what happens.... and there's only one way to find out and that is to drive somewhere to get stranded.
I have no idea what is the issue. Laptop sync'd at home and I couldn't get it to happen again during a datalog. (That would be another checkmark in the win column for a GM ECM because it would have had diagnostics stored.) I checked fuses for hairline cracks and shook the harness like mad and it would not misbehave again. Loaded the latest firmware and re-flashed my engine config. Odd thing is that it didn't save the config properly the first time and I had to load it twice.
So now it's the waiting game to see what happens.... and there's only one way to find out and that is to drive somewhere to get stranded.
This is the biggest problem with the Holley... unpredictability in reliability... i have tried all sorts of different ECMs and in the end their is no substitute for GM OEM reliability of function, holley isn't even close. When I first bought my Holley HP (actually bought 2) I was thinking I would standardize on it over time for all my swaps as what a wonderful opportunity to have one common ECM from TPI to LS and all configurations. I gave up when it couldn't even reliably control reliably base TPI set-up due to a software bug they introduced, wouldn't own up to, and then only reportedly fixed 18 months after I reported it.... No thanks! I can work around the GM feature issues, I don't want to worry about reliability
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#1825
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
It only happens about once every two years and clears up when I get home never to be diagnosed. This is the third or fourth time since 2016.
Yep, if I lose this HP ECM I'm not sure another Holley ECM will be going in its place. I've got a Dominator in storage that has almost doubled in value since I bought it and that will fund a whole lot of projects.
#1826
Senior Member
Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
It only happens about once every two years and clears up when I get home never to be diagnosed. This is the third or fourth time since 2016.Yep, if I lose this HP ECM I'm not sure another Holley ECM will be going in its place. I've got a Dominator in storage that has almost doubled in value since I bought it and that will fund a whole lot of projects.
#1827
Senior Member
Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
It feels good to see I'm not the only one noticing this about the Holley EFI products. 6 of us spent half a day diagnosing a wiring issue with a Terminator system recently that turned out to be a bad pin in one of the coil pack connectors. I've also seen a few cars just die on track from harness issues in the last 2 years. I'm beginning to think the venture capital firms buying up companies in the automotive aftermarket may not have been good for the enthusiasts.
#1828
Senior Member
Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
It feels good to see I'm not the only one noticing this about the Holley EFI products. 6 of us spent half a day diagnosing a wiring issue with a Terminator system recently that turned out to be a bad pin in one of the coil pack connectors. I've also seen a few cars just die on track from harness issues in the last 2 years. I'm beginning to think the venture capital firms buying up companies in the automotive aftermarket may not have been good for the enthusiasts.
https://hcrinnovations.com/shop/plug-n-play-harnesses/
#1829
Senior Member
Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
If you're buying Holley EFI stuff buy your ECU of choice then go to HCR innovations and get one of their harnesses for your system. I don't have one personally but I've heard nothing but good things and 10x better than the harnesses Holley is putting out today
https://hcrinnovations.com/shop/plug-n-play-harnesses/
https://hcrinnovations.com/shop/plug-n-play-harnesses/
I am going to be watching the harness build being done though. I do enough wiring work I'm always interested to see how the different terminals and tools work to see if there are better options than what I already use.
#1830
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
And coincidentally, after gobs of research and planning and the usual indecisiveness, I finally started to build an engine harness from scratch!
I've decided to start this journey with some bad cinematography using a very old phone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE8oyCOro48&t=8s
I've decided to start this journey with some bad cinematography using a very old phone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE8oyCOro48&t=8s
I don't really own/ have a full-time Business anymore...
And Everything that I have offered you has been at my actual cost.
I am hoping to try and be able to offer these types of products to the Forum Members at my cost/ or close to it as the Retail Pricing on most of these Products is quite high by comparison.
I would just like to try and help out the Guys (and the few Gals too) here with what little that I can... being we all share some common interest with these Third-Gens.
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#1831
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
That's incredibly generous, much appreciated!
My youtube channel will max out around 20 views and most that is my own family.
My youtube channel will max out around 20 views and most that is my own family.
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#1832
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
Well, crap. I just realized I want the pass-thru connectors swapped the other way around (interior side vs. exterior side). There's $100 of parts down the drain.
That was the one thing that wasn't dummy proof.
That was the one thing that wasn't dummy proof.
#1833
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
The other Half is offered Sealed or Unsealed...
If you purchased both haves Sealed, then it should not really matter which way you orient them.
Last edited by vorteciroc; 04-16-2023 at 01:45 AM.
#1834
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
Problem is one side projects out further from sheet metal than the other. I think I need the slimmer side in the interior to clear the interior trim.
I'm not going to throw away these wires. Maybe try to sell this interior sub-harness with some HD20/30 connectors and see if anybody bites.
I'm not going to throw away these wires. Maybe try to sell this interior sub-harness with some HD20/30 connectors and see if anybody bites.
#1835
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
If you've ever wondered what's inside the Holley shielded cable....
Same old phone. Same bad cinematography.
Same old phone. Same bad cinematography.
#1836
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
If you've ever wondered what's inside the Holley shielded cable....
Same old phone. Same bad cinematography.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YqVSnnRsT8
Same old phone. Same bad cinematography.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YqVSnnRsT8
That said, has there ever been a mention of "no shield in the field"? That is, as a drain wire, it's sole purpose is to allow a single path to ground. This is as opposed to what happens when both ends are landed resulting in what my industry calls a ground loop. The result being exactly the opposite of what's trying to be accomplished.
What does Holley have to say about that?
My apologies if it's been touched on and I missed it.
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#1837
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
Only one end of the Drain-Wire is connected/ terminated.
The other end is loose and then sealed in the Harness.
The other end is loose and then sealed in the Harness.
#1838
Supreme Member
Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
Interestingly, I came across an engineering paper regarding RFI in industrial applications. Best practice was the aforementioned, no shield in the field. That is, the source has the drain terminated to ground and the device end is left floating. However the paper went on to discuss counter measures if that didn't produce the desired result. One was to reverse the termination points. Another was to land them both. A final solution offered was to relocate the cable away from potential sources of interference! Gotta love them engineering folks. (And I know many and have worked well with all of them).
Thanks for the feedback.
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#1840
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
I work in aviation as an avionics tech, we utilize both methods. I guess for one thing it depends how well Holley's bonding is for the ECM. If it is not well grounded you could fry something in the system. I don't think you could over do it. It really depends on the intensity of RF energy (ignition system possibly) on the un-bonded end of the cable. Personally I would do both ends, JMHO.
#1841
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
I work in aviation as an avionics tech, we utilize both methods. I guess for one thing it depends how well Holley's bonding is for the ECM. If it is not well grounded you could fry something in the system. I don't think you could over do it. It really depends on the intensity of RF energy (ignition system possibly) on the un-bonded end of the cable. Personally I would do both ends, JMHO.
If all things that require a ground/bond to negative (in automotive) then one big binding post seems to eliminate some of the more common issues that might come up.
Even in an old school carbureted, mechanical distributor application such as my own, there are still plenty of relays required. I try to keep all of switch to ground negatives in one place.
#1842
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
I will just say in "OUR" Automotive applications here:
-Holley EFI, the Drain Wire should only be connected at the Control Module.
-Holley EFI, the Ground Wire should only be connected at the Battery Post (NO OTHER GROUND CONNECTIONS/ WIRES TOUCH THIS WIRE).
-Holley EFI, the Positive Wire should only be connected at the Battery Post through a Fuse (NO OTHER CONNECTIONS/ WIRES TOUCH THIS WIRE).
DC 12-VOLT POWER (for Automotive use with a Common Chassis Ground) all comes from the NEGATIVE POST OF THE BATTERY.
IT IS THE MOST CRITICAL SECTION OF THE POWER SYSTEM OF THE VEHICLE.
CLEAN and DIRTY Ground Circuits MUST BE SEPARATED when ELECTRONICS are used.
ELECTRONICS and Electrical Components can NOT be Confused for one another regardless of our Sub-Forum name mistakenly being Named: "Electronics".
Grounding points must be very few throughout the vehicle.
10 Different Grounding Points on the Engine itself is a Massive Mistake ESPECIALLY when using Electronics.
10 Different Grounding Points on the Body/ Chassis itself is a Massive Mistake ESPECIALLY when using Electronics.
The Diagram below is the ONLY Acceptable Grounding Method when using Electronics:
Battery location can be Front or Rear.
Battery Cable Gauge can be smaller with a Front Mounted Battery.
DO NOT, I REPEAT, DO NOT...
Do Not go cheap on a Battery or Alternator.
Today, I ONLY recommend XS-Power Brand or Odyssey Brand Batteries.
GM/ ACDelco has long since gone down the Toilet (and can be "Hit or Miss" in terms of Quality.
If you have an Gen-III/ Gen-IV/ Gen-V SBC and new Auto.-Trans. Swap with multiple Electric Accessories...
I recommend an Actual "High-Output" Alternator that will all for 150A to 250A at an Engine Idle or by an Engine Speed of 1,500 RPM.
DO NOT CONFUSE ALTERNATOR RPM AND ENGINE RPM IN REGARD TO ALTERNATOR OUTPUT/ TESTING/ PERFORMANCE STATS.
Again, I do not recommend GM/ ACDelco Alternators.
Today, I ONLY recommend DC-POWER or Mechman Brand High-Output Alternators.
Good luck and everyone have some fun!
-Holley EFI, the Drain Wire should only be connected at the Control Module.
-Holley EFI, the Ground Wire should only be connected at the Battery Post (NO OTHER GROUND CONNECTIONS/ WIRES TOUCH THIS WIRE).
-Holley EFI, the Positive Wire should only be connected at the Battery Post through a Fuse (NO OTHER CONNECTIONS/ WIRES TOUCH THIS WIRE).
DC 12-VOLT POWER (for Automotive use with a Common Chassis Ground) all comes from the NEGATIVE POST OF THE BATTERY.
IT IS THE MOST CRITICAL SECTION OF THE POWER SYSTEM OF THE VEHICLE.
CLEAN and DIRTY Ground Circuits MUST BE SEPARATED when ELECTRONICS are used.
ELECTRONICS and Electrical Components can NOT be Confused for one another regardless of our Sub-Forum name mistakenly being Named: "Electronics".
Grounding points must be very few throughout the vehicle.
10 Different Grounding Points on the Engine itself is a Massive Mistake ESPECIALLY when using Electronics.
10 Different Grounding Points on the Body/ Chassis itself is a Massive Mistake ESPECIALLY when using Electronics.
The Diagram below is the ONLY Acceptable Grounding Method when using Electronics:
Battery location can be Front or Rear.
Battery Cable Gauge can be smaller with a Front Mounted Battery.
DO NOT, I REPEAT, DO NOT...
Do Not go cheap on a Battery or Alternator.
Today, I ONLY recommend XS-Power Brand or Odyssey Brand Batteries.
GM/ ACDelco has long since gone down the Toilet (and can be "Hit or Miss" in terms of Quality.
If you have an Gen-III/ Gen-IV/ Gen-V SBC and new Auto.-Trans. Swap with multiple Electric Accessories...
I recommend an Actual "High-Output" Alternator that will all for 150A to 250A at an Engine Idle or by an Engine Speed of 1,500 RPM.
DO NOT CONFUSE ALTERNATOR RPM AND ENGINE RPM IN REGARD TO ALTERNATOR OUTPUT/ TESTING/ PERFORMANCE STATS.
Again, I do not recommend GM/ ACDelco Alternators.
Today, I ONLY recommend DC-POWER or Mechman Brand High-Output Alternators.
Good luck and everyone have some fun!
Last edited by vorteciroc; 04-19-2023 at 09:02 PM.
#1843
Supreme Member
Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
With respect to multiple grounding points, in OUR application, I couldn't agree more with the above.
Keep it tight. Keep it clean.
Keep it tight. Keep it clean.
#1844
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
Quick capture how I constructed the WBO2 cable. This is very easy.
Drain wire is covered in two layers of RT-375 clear heat shrink, one layer of 1/16" and one layer of 1/8" (these are dimensions before shrinking). This protects the wire from fraying and exposure to the elements, and also simulates wire insulation so it will mate properly to the cable seals in connectors. Treat the drain like a 20 AWG wire when crimping. Holley documents it as 22 AWG in their schematics but I measured the individual strand diameters and it is 20 AWG.
Then I covered the exposed edge with dual-wall encapsulating SCT heat shrink (size 3). Honestly, the finished product looks just like how Holley terminates the cable at a connector, except my choice of heat shrink is probably higher grade of chemical resistance and flame retardant.
Drain wire is covered in two layers of RT-375 clear heat shrink, one layer of 1/16" and one layer of 1/8" (these are dimensions before shrinking). This protects the wire from fraying and exposure to the elements, and also simulates wire insulation so it will mate properly to the cable seals in connectors. Treat the drain like a 20 AWG wire when crimping. Holley documents it as 22 AWG in their schematics but I measured the individual strand diameters and it is 20 AWG.
Then I covered the exposed edge with dual-wall encapsulating SCT heat shrink (size 3). Honestly, the finished product looks just like how Holley terminates the cable at a connector, except my choice of heat shrink is probably higher grade of chemical resistance and flame retardant.
Last edited by QwkTrip; 04-20-2023 at 12:34 AM.
#1845
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
On the flip side, the Cam & Crank cables are proving to be a lot more tricky to make. There's going to be a traffic jam of wires and splices at the ECM. I honestly don't know why I'm trying to make this part myself, I think I'd rather buy a finished cable and cut to length (finishing the sensor ends is easy). But I haven't found what I need on the Holley website for 58X timing system.
This is my first test run of trying to join a set of wires (sensor grounds in this case) at the ECM. It's a 4-way splice of Cam, Crank, and Sensors into the ECM. I was expecting 22 AWG wire but I measured the actual strands in each wire and found that everything inside the Holley cable is 20 AWG, including the shield. Using my handy dandy splice guide, (post #13), 4 x 20 AWG wires has a CMA = 4445, and I should select the 41765 Amplivar thru splice.
I did some test hits with various Metri-Pack and Weather-Pack crimpers I own and got the best results with a Weatherpack crimper (Tool 12085270, Position 4). I centered the crimper on the body of the splice and left the bells on the end. I think next test run I need to have more wire length on the right side of the crimp going into the 3 wire bundle. Thoughts???
Covered over and strain relieved with 1.5 inches of ES-2000 (size 1) semi-rigid heat shrink. It ain't bending, that's for sure.
This is my first test run of trying to join a set of wires (sensor grounds in this case) at the ECM. It's a 4-way splice of Cam, Crank, and Sensors into the ECM. I was expecting 22 AWG wire but I measured the actual strands in each wire and found that everything inside the Holley cable is 20 AWG, including the shield. Using my handy dandy splice guide, (post #13), 4 x 20 AWG wires has a CMA = 4445, and I should select the 41765 Amplivar thru splice.
I did some test hits with various Metri-Pack and Weather-Pack crimpers I own and got the best results with a Weatherpack crimper (Tool 12085270, Position 4). I centered the crimper on the body of the splice and left the bells on the end. I think next test run I need to have more wire length on the right side of the crimp going into the 3 wire bundle. Thoughts???
Covered over and strain relieved with 1.5 inches of ES-2000 (size 1) semi-rigid heat shrink. It ain't bending, that's for sure.
Last edited by QwkTrip; 04-20-2023 at 12:37 AM.
#1846
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
And I did my first real build of splitting 10 AWG into two 14 AWG wires to pass through my bulkhead. I think it turned out good other than I probably should have left a bell on each side of the crimp. I'll probably redo this again.
This time I did a better job of keeping the two 14 AWG on one side of the crimp and the 10 AWG on the other side. Using a zip tie as an extra set of hands helped tremendously. I used a Amplivar splice 63562-1 and crimped it with a double wire crimper Delphi 12040070. It's not really what it was meant for but that's the tool I have and it turned out pretty darn decent.
Covered over and strain relieved with SCT (size 3) semi-rigid encapsulating heat shrink.
This is why I broke down last week and bought the real Deutsch HDT-48-00 crimper. I wanted to place 14 AWG wires into a size 16 cavity with gold plated terminals.
This time I did a better job of keeping the two 14 AWG on one side of the crimp and the 10 AWG on the other side. Using a zip tie as an extra set of hands helped tremendously. I used a Amplivar splice 63562-1 and crimped it with a double wire crimper Delphi 12040070. It's not really what it was meant for but that's the tool I have and it turned out pretty darn decent.
Covered over and strain relieved with SCT (size 3) semi-rigid encapsulating heat shrink.
This is why I broke down last week and bought the real Deutsch HDT-48-00 crimper. I wanted to place 14 AWG wires into a size 16 cavity with gold plated terminals.
Last edited by QwkTrip; 04-20-2023 at 01:05 AM.
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#1847
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
Another $0 budget video, this time showing my efforts to build the cam & crank shielded cables.
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#1848
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
Quick rundown how I made the breakouts at ECM for cam and crank sensors.
Cable was similar to WBO2, just fewer wires inside and it's all located inside the shield foil. There are two cables to work with this time though, one for CAM sensor, one for CRANK sensor.
Bringing all the commons together was a bit of a party trick. Need more hands than I have. Finally asked my wife for an extra hand and that allowed me to use both my hands to situate wires for the crimp. I made the crimp with an Amplivar 41765 for each location, and Weatherpack 14 AWG crimper (Position 4 with Delphi 12085270 tool).
Commons overlaid with Raychem ES-1 encapsulating semi-rigid heat shrink. Both the common grounds and the common +5V references include those for Cam / Crank sensors and an addition wire run that will go to other sensors on the engine. I ran the shield drain wire into the IPU Ground input at the ECM. This time though I used a normal 20 AWG TXL wire (Black) for the final run to ECM, so you won't see any of the bare drain wire in the final product.
Bundle overlaid with Raychem SCT-3 encapsulating semi-rigid heat shrink. Pretty snazzy for a first timer if I say so myself.
Cable was similar to WBO2, just fewer wires inside and it's all located inside the shield foil. There are two cables to work with this time though, one for CAM sensor, one for CRANK sensor.
Bringing all the commons together was a bit of a party trick. Need more hands than I have. Finally asked my wife for an extra hand and that allowed me to use both my hands to situate wires for the crimp. I made the crimp with an Amplivar 41765 for each location, and Weatherpack 14 AWG crimper (Position 4 with Delphi 12085270 tool).
Commons overlaid with Raychem ES-1 encapsulating semi-rigid heat shrink. Both the common grounds and the common +5V references include those for Cam / Crank sensors and an addition wire run that will go to other sensors on the engine. I ran the shield drain wire into the IPU Ground input at the ECM. This time though I used a normal 20 AWG TXL wire (Black) for the final run to ECM, so you won't see any of the bare drain wire in the final product.
Bundle overlaid with Raychem SCT-3 encapsulating semi-rigid heat shrink. Pretty snazzy for a first timer if I say so myself.
Last edited by QwkTrip; 04-24-2023 at 01:18 AM.
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#1849
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
As far as why I use ES2000 heat shrink in some locations and SCT heat shrink in other locations, it's because I have both in different sizes. They both have similar specs, but I have noticed that the SCT has a longer "workable" time during cool down so it's been more user friendly with larger bundles.
Here is link to Raychem catalog of heat shrinks, Document 9-1773447-9 It's overwhelming how many choices there are. I just narrowed the field to those with better ratings of flammability and chemical resistance.
Here is link to Raychem catalog of heat shrinks, Document 9-1773447-9 It's overwhelming how many choices there are. I just narrowed the field to those with better ratings of flammability and chemical resistance.
Last edited by QwkTrip; 04-24-2023 at 07:41 AM.
#1850
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Re: What ever happened to QwkTrip's car anyway?
SCT is also Fire Ret. where the more popular SCL is not.
I like the SCT Product very much, and use it in applications that require the Fire Ret.
I like the SCT Product very much, and use it in applications that require the Fire Ret.