abadv8

HI everyone.

I’m still looking for the power train for my ’89. I have gone through so many ideas and iterations of what I would like to see in that car over the 15 years that I’ve owned it. I’ve got cash in hand, and now I can’t find what I’m looking for. I would really like to find a complete, wrecked fourth gen LS1/T56 car. Does anyone have any leads, or know what I should be paying for that?

I’ve been following the Copart auctions and have an acquaintance keeping an eye on some national auction lanes for me. Truth be told, I have only been looking to purchase for about two weeks. But with the summer weather that we’ve been having here, I’m getting anxious.

Anyways, I thought that would put the feelers out, and see if any of my third gen brethren had any leads or suggestions.

Thanks!

robguitargod1

iTrader: (4)

Craigslist. I bought a '99Z for $3600 un-wrecked. Took the LS1/T56/Plastic fuel tank, and sold the rest as a roller for $1100. Deals are out there man! Piecing one together isn't fun, so stick to finding a complete car.

abadv8

Agreed. It makes no sense to spend that kind of money buying the car one piece at time. I've narrowed my search to salvage and wrecked cars, but I may be able to find what I'm on Craigslist as a running, driving car. I'd kind of overlooked that. Thanks!

On an aside, I was just looking at some of my previous posts and intentions...

I really hope this is the one. I just need to stop buying Harleys and diesel trucks and focus on what's important for a while.

Thanks again!

coptzer

iTrader: (2)

One thing to keep in mind is the shipping on a wreck, unless it is local enough for you to go pick it up. This was my dilemma when I was hunting. I wanted the car, but by the time I got it here, spent all the time taking out the parts I needed, and then possibly sitting on parts to sell to gain back some money, it just wasn't worth it for me personally. I ended up buying the whole setup through someone else and feel it was a good decision. But like I said, depending on where you live and picking it up yourself, would be a viable option.

Also be careful of copart fees. I watched a lot of auctions and the prices they went for was kind of ridiculous. And I would highly recommend buying a car, which is at the very least, is not hit so hard it can't be started. Just things to keep in mind.

abadv8

Yeah, I have diesel trucks and trailers. Going to pick up a car isn't a real big deal for me. I can get most places in the US for about $700 round trip. In that case, I try to make a weekend out of it, see something new, have a nice dinner somewhere, and enjoy the road trip. So, I'm not too worried about that aspect.

I've found a couple of interesting prospects on the Craigslist. I came across a '98 LS1/T56 for $3,800 with, get this, 254,000 miles. The body isn't great. The interior looks like you'd expect after 250k. The owner tells me that it's all original. I'd give $1,500 for that.

I'll keep up the search. There seem to be a lot of running, driving cars out there. I'll just have to be a little patient.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

abadv8: Where abouts do you live so we can narrow down any leads for ya??

I found my 99 SS vert on LS1tech's classifieds. It was pretty far away. Baltimore, MD. I took a ride out, liked the car, and gave him a deposit. I had NO way of getting it, but I did have a buddy with a diesel truck. Rented a trailer from a rental place and went and got it.

So it sounds like you have that part covered...which is probably the most PITA part! Now you just need to wait for that perfect deal.

As for parts you can sell off the donor.... Try to find one that got rear-ended. I know...you arent gonna be that picky. But the front clips go to the 93-97 guys for a pretty penny. Also the doors and dash can be sold pretty easy. I think I got almost a grand for my vert top and hydraulic motor.

Good luck!

J.

abadv8

I'm scouring the country looking for he ideal donor. I would really like to get this project going. I finally have a nice place to work on it, and all the fab tools that I would need at my disposal. So, I'm a little anxious.

I still can't believe that a running, driving car goes for less than a salvage... what?

coptzer

iTrader: (2)

Tell me about it. You might also want to check some banks and such for repossessions. The right car is out there you just have to be patient. Trust me I know the anticipation you are feeling.

I would still keep an I on ls1tech. But you got to be fast cause they go quick. Good luck.

UnstableAviator

I knew we'd eventually be getting close to the time when folks buy running, driving LS1 cars just to part them out. I think the time may be now...the LS engines have never been hotter, and the 4th Gen F-Body is viewed by most as outdated junk.

abadv8

For serious car enthusiasts, parting out an otherwise good, running, driving, muscle car presents something of an ethical dilemma. I realize that this is probably going to be the best route to get the parts that I need to finally do something with my ride. However, I almost feel as though I am robbing some teenager of their first true love in the world of cars.

I’ve got my reservations, and I don’t plan to divulge my intentions to strip the car that I buy. I’m not sure how I feel about that…

I guess I just need to keep in the back of mind that I may, in fact, be saving some poor teenager from a date with destiny… and car wrapped around a tree.

I’m still looking intently. I’ve been pretty fixated on the LS1/T56 combo. Swapping in an LS1/4L60 would probably be easier, but I would like the option of having a few gears. I would have to guess that buying a runner will really minimize the number f additional parts that I will need to get this car running. It will probably open up some opportunities to retrofit components that I would have otherwise overlooked.

I have delusions of grandeur: ABS, TCS, 4th gen cluster in a 3rd gen dash… limitless.

robguitargod1

iTrader: (4)

The T56 is geared very well too.

coptzer

iTrader: (2)

How many people did this to us in the generation before.....Screw the teenagers.....JK I feel your dilemma. It is sad to part a perfectly good car. Just remember, you can sell the roller for a track car as well, so the car does not have to be crushed.

We all have this dilemma, and if you have waited this long, I would buy what you want now and be done with it. I was able to pick up my donor motor/trans with everything I needed including radiator, fans, pedals, wiring, gas tank, etc.... without have to buy the whole car, so it can be done.

abadv8

Ghetto: I'm sorry, I totally glazed over your question. I live in south western Wisconsin. I recall reading your entire build thread (with a wedding in the middle). It was quite the inspiration.

So, I'm seeing a lot of 4th gens with the LS1/T56 in the $5-6k neighborhood. Assuming I bough something like that, what are some items that seem like they'd be easy to sell? I'm wondering what I should be looking for.

Thanks again guys!

Edit: I had it in my mind that I wanted to be around $3k for this project (miscellaneous items excluded), hence the parting out question.

89rs454

Craigslist, best bet. You might have to travel 1-200 miles but there are people needing money as the economy is **** atm. And just remember if a guy is asking for 3k you can probably talk him down to 2,500-2,000 with some smooth talking. I bought a fully driving lt1 4l60E Forumla for 1000$ drove it 150 miles home and now it's power train is in my car. The guy originally wanted 3,000.

89rs454

I used the mileage to get to his house and the mileage that was on the tach to manipulate what i wanted which was right at 98k, so i kept talking to him and finally he pressed. And to be honest i kind of feel bad. I felt like a used car salesman when i got it installed in my 89 and felt the rath of a real 350.

coptzer

iTrader: (2)

Are you talking clean cars or wrecks in that price range? If you were to buy a Camaro, look for an SS, 01 - 02 would be nice. There are a lot of people who will buy the SS parts that you will not use. If you could find an SLP version, even better.

I budgeted $5000 for my swap. I am currently at $4300 with almost everything I need including Hawks long tubes. That is not including what I can sell off my TPI stuff for to recoup some costs. Now mine is not installed yet, and know there will be additional charges, but I will be real close to my budget. So if you can part out a car and get a good return, your $3k is possible. Depending of course on which way you go with exhaust. just be sure, that once you start, you will want more.

abadv8

I could handle clean or salvage. I realize that I'm probably not going to find a clean car for $3k (at least not one that doesn't have a body in trunk). But, with some parting out, perhaps I can get my net cost back down to around $3k.

My thought on the budget number is that I've been doing this long enough to know two simple mathematical facts about projects: 1) Take the time you have allotted and triple it, this will give you a realistic time frame, and 2) Establish an inclusive cost and multiply that by at least 2, this will still leave you short of the real total.

So, If I try to do this for 3,000, I'll probably come out a little closer to 6,000 (but that does not represent my upfront cost, and can be distributed over the year). I'd prefer to not have to sell one of the Harleys to pay for this. I have a few homeowner projects that I am trying to plan this around as well. It's not impossible, it is just going to take a little finesse to get it all done how I would like.

And on that note, I'm going to take a quick look at the Craigslist...

abadv8

I'm still searching very intently, but not finding exactly what I want. There seem to be a lot of decent LS1/4L60E's out there, but not so many LS1/T56's. The six speeds seem to be fetching unrealistic prices at the moment. My hope is that people are still burning up their tax refund checks, and that this inflated market will correct itself in the coming weeks.

Is it unreasonable to think that I might be able to do an LS1/4L60E swap this spring, and plan for a T56 upgrade in the near future? My thought behind doing everything all at once is that I want to throw a cam and a tune at this thing, and have a nice weekend driver and occasional commuter. I realize that the manual trans would net me a bit better fuel economy but, let's face it, no one builds a 5.7 liter street car with fuel economy as their primary concern.

It seems that I'm waffling a bit at the moment. On one hand, the automatic is an easy find and an even easier swap. On the other hand, the manual is what I would prefer. My '89 has been sitting for 5 years, and I would really like to get it home, in my shop, and back on the road this summer. So, I feel somewhat squeezed by time in this case as well. Although, realistically, the car hasn't gone anywhere in the past 15 years, so...

I've been watching the Craigslist. There are quite a few six speeds that pop up. But, they are either trashed, or relatively low mileage and high priced. I've been watching Ebay as well. There are deals to be had, I'm just not having them. Is there another source that I could be looking at?

I guess I'm just feeling of the effects of a fruitless search at the moment (and the effects of mild to moderate impatience), and needed a sounding board to bounce my thoughts off of. Who could possibly be better than fellow thirdgen enthusiasts?

This may be the largest hurdle that anyone doing this swap will encounter. At least, it seems to be for me.

Thanks for listening.

UnstableAviator

Believe me, I know how hard LS1/T56 donor cars are to find.

Its not just 3rd Gen folks out there looking for it either. The G-body crowd, 60's muscle, BMW's, Mazda, Jeep, and Fox Mustang people are ALL jumping on the LSX bandwagon faster than anything I've seen in hot rodding. We gotta understand GM only build the LS1 F-body with the HIGHLY desirable LS1/T56 combo for 5 short model years. 98, 99, 00, 01, 02. That's it. The accessory drive fits dang near everything, the oil pan provides ample ground clearance, and the power potential is just awesome. Within the last year, I know I bought my takeout for $3500 and the same seller is now asking $4000 for the EXACT SAME THING since demand is through the roof. T56's aren't going to get cheaper. LS1's will remain high until the aftermarket FINALLY comes thruough with a cheap accessory drive and the LS2/LS3 becomes more maintstream.

Remember there are lots of people scanning Copart and local salvage places every day looking for this stuff...its competitive, and letting a nice 01+ LS1/T56 slip by when its $500 more than you want to pay might not be a good idea. I know a year ago, I never thought I'd be remotely interested in the LSX platform, and as it is right now I've sold every single piece of old school SBC stuff I've ever owned...and I'm not the only local guy who's done that either.

abadv8

Would a 2000 T-top with less than 100k miles for $5,200 be worth pursuing?

I have this as an option at the moment.

zachkuby87

Hey I'm also on the search for a donor car and I'm in st paul mn so if you find more than one in the midwest let me know... I just picked up an 85 iroc that had been sitting for 5-6 years plan was to get it running nice drive it til winter then do the lsx/t56 swap but in its 3.5 mile journey from its dungeon to my house the tranny took a crap,the fan siezed it overheated really bad and just has way to many problems. So I'm just going to yank the 305 and do the swap. I don't see the point in fixing something I'm throwing away.

89ROC-Z

iTrader: (7)

I wouldn't strip it down for a 3rd gen swap. Buy it, sell the 3rd gen, and put the swap money into a heads/cam/intake/exhaust and have fun! Having both, I like the 4th gen better. Everything's newer and nicer lol

zachkuby87

I agree I won't tear a perfectly nice 4th gen apart for parts for my 3rd gen. Now a smashed 4th gen? No poblem ill take everything I can.

88blackiroc

iTrader: (1)

But you will always have the one problem a fourth gen is cursed with.. its looks!
In the end you may be faster, but you wont have that gordous third gen styling ::.
I myself wouldnt mind ripping apart a good fourth gen. Plus its not like theirs a shortage .
Plus you wont have to replace any possible broken parts! Always a plus!

abadv8

So, I pulled the trigger and bought a nearly perfect 4th Gen last night. The price was what I am willing to spend on the swap. I'll try to throw some pictures up later today.

I have mixed emotions about the swap at this point. It would be sad to part out a perfectly good car. But I have far more attachment to my thirdgen than any new car could offer. So, there is that aspect.

On a side note, did all fourth gens have composite hoods? I thought I saw some salvage cars with wrinkled hoods...

88blackiroc

iTrader: (1)

Nope. Mine had a metal hood. And any pictures of the donor car? And how much did you end up paying?
dont feel to bad. Sell the whole body and let it become someone elses project

abadv8

This hood is definitely composite. I looked at it and thought that bodywork had been done. So, I started looking at pinch welds and seams for signs of stress of deformation. Everything was straight as an arrow and clean. Then I thought that it might have been replaced because the car was painted (for whatever reason). So, I looked for the typical painting issues; missing door jamb stickers, paint on gaskets, dry spray under gaskets from lift taping, dry spray in crevices. I found nothing to indicate that it had ever been painted.

I asked if any body work been done, and was eyeballing the hood. The guy said that it was composite. Sure enough, when you pop the hood, it is composite. It doesn't look like a typical fiberglass hood though. There are tiny bits of chopped glass around some of the holes, almost like this hood was sprayed into a mold, rather than hand laid.

The thing is, every bit of the hood was covered in paint. So, I'm thinking that it got the electrostatic paint job that a factory would apply.

It is a really really clean car. The interior shows signs of wear that a 100k mile car should have, but the dash and plastics are near perfect.

Conundrum...

Edit: I'll try to get some pictures of the car up tonight. It may have to wait until Monday if the weather does not cooperate though.

coptzer

iTrader: (2)

Congrats.... let the fun begin. How many miles and what did you end up paying? You are starting out way further ahead than most with practically everything you need right there. The only big dollar expense left really is if you decide to do headers.

abadv8

The car has 97k miles, and really looks amazing.

Can we leave the purchase price discussion at "below market value"? I am not completely sure if I'm ready to part this, and I don't want to give away my purchase price just yet...

If I do wind up parting and swapping this, I will definitely let you guys know how much it set me back. I don't mean to be shady about it, but it's something that I'm not ready to divulge just yet.

So, if not all 4th gens had composite hoods, did any of them have them from the factory? I think someone put a lot of love into this car at one point.

coptzer

iTrader: (2)

If you don't feel comfortable giving your purchase price than so be it. That's your prerogative. But when you started this thread, in a public forum, you asked people for help in regards to what costs would be associated with the swap, and everyone was trying to help, so you can understand the curiosity of people when they ask what you spent. It doesn't sound like you paid too much, so if you got a steal on it, then good for you! MY

Can you tell us anymore about the car. What year, model, drivetrain, etc. It is kind of a shame to part a perfectly good car, but it completely depends on what you want in the end. I guess I would just say do what you want, and don't let anyone guilt you into doing something other than that. The bonus to keeping the 4th gen, is you don't have any other costs associated with a "swap". And you can drive it "now" and decide what to do later. I wish mine wasn't sitting on a crate in the basement.

89rs454

He paid to much for it, that's why he keeps the price to himself I don't understand this but more power to you i guess.

abadv8

No, I didn't know if I wanted to flip it or not. I deal with vendors and customers professionally, so keeping my cost to myself has become a habit. Nothing personal.

Anyway, I've decided to keep it. So, here's what I can tell you:

I paid $5,200. I consider this acceptable as I've seen salvage cars going for $6,000, and an LS1/T56 swap is going for $4,600. Additionally, I paid $4,100 for my '89 when I bought it (15 years ago). I think I did alright.

I'm working on the pictures... Picasa seems to be generating blank pages???

abadv8

Ah hah... got it! Pics below:

























More to follow shortly...

abadv8

Interior and wheels...

This one is a little blurry. It was bright, sunny day, so the camera was having a hard time focusing on the dark interior.
























I didn't get any underhood pics (problems with sun and focus). I'll pull it into the shop and take some pictures in the near future.

So, how'd I do? Did I "pay too much"?

keeslinger31

I mean you didn't pay too much but I personally wouldn't have the ***** to part it... God would be like

abadv8

Hence my dilemma.

I've broken my purchase down like this (my best guess based on the most recent prices that I've seen):

LS1/T56 + Harness = $4,600
Drive Shaft = $150
Rear Axle = $600
Manual Pedal Set = $50
Fuel Tank = $150
Brake Swap = $500
Body Harness = $50
LS1 Fans = $75
LS1 Cluster = $75

Total Used Parts = $6,250

Should I decide to swap the interior over, that's another $400 (?).

I haven't looked too closely yet, but I would imagine that the trans cross member could be modified to fit the '89. I am sure that there will be other things that will swap over. Having the original donor vehicle on site should be a huge help. How many people have had to fabricate things entirely from scratch, when simply modifying the original, yet unavailable piece would have been far easier?

This one really has me thrown for a loop. I shouldn't care about this car, as I have no real connection with it. It has almost 100k miles, so it is almost on the peak of its mechanical failure curve. Which means that there is a potential for a large investment in repair work. Some of these things could be addressed during a swap, and probably significantly less expensive.

Parting this car isn't going to be the easiest, or the most intelligent, thing that I've ever done. But, I set out to find a donor car, and that's what I bought. I wan my '89 back on the road more than I want the 2000.

coptzer

iTrader: (2)

Nice looking car. I don't know where you are seeing those prices, but they can be had for much less. If I knew I could sell my swap for $4600, then that baby would be gone! I have less than that into mine with a cam, and long tubes, and that's counting shipping. I am not doubting or questioning what you've seen for prices as I have seen them too, it's just some people are ridiculously high on them. I would definitely say you are in a better position than most with the complete car.

I would say if you have the fabricating skills then do it. But there are pieces out there that are specifically made for the swap.

I wouldn't say that 100k is at the peak of mechanical failure on these motors. My brother is putting 600hp to the wheels on a 5.3 junkyard motor with like 115k on it. If they are taken care of, you can get a lot of reliable miles out of these motors.

Drive it around for a while to get a feel for how it goes. If you get connected to the car then keep it, if not part the bitch and make some money back. Either way, you are in a pretty good situation

dprest68

iTrader: (1)

Seems shameful to part such a nice car. A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do though, right? Good luck with your swap.

88blackiroc

iTrader: (1)

Agreed. Good luck! Youll love that you had the donor car to look back on. What i did is pretty much take a fourth gen and put a third gen body over it.
If i were you, id get everything done beforehand. Go ahead and spend the extra cash now for your swap, which means interior and mechanics for you. Id get a compression check to make sure your #s look good and then rebuild the top end. Throw some heads and a cam on while your at it

abadv8

I should have clarified the mechanical failure curve statement. The engine internals should last into the 250k range, if properly maintained. Unfortunately, things like alternators, water pumps, steering gear, etc. do not like intermittent operation. For some reason things with bearing surfaces seem to last longer if the are in a state of continuous motion.

It's a tough call to part out something that has nothing wrong with it. Although, now that I'm going over the car with a fine tooth comb, I'm finding those tiny little imperfections (like loose plastic pieces) that we all love to "just take care of". So, I realize that this car is not without its own faults.

I think I'm going to register and insure it, then drive it until the '89 is ready for the parts to go in. The state has a minimum liability insurance requirement... yet I still legally have to carry uninsured and underinsured motorist coverage... I don't get that. If, after a month or two of driving the fourth gen, I become too fond of it to part it, I'll sell it to someone else. I suppose that would be easier than selling swap parts, as my market is much greater.

Thanks for the perspectives guys.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Don't worry about it -- that's not an ethical dilemma. Stealing food so your family doesn't starve is an ethical dilemma. These are just cars, my friend, and they won't last forever so use them while they're still fresh.

Congrats on finding what you want. It's not necessarily the goal to see how little you can spend. Just have fun with your hobby within whatever is reasonable for your own financial situation. If I can make one suggestion, it would be to drive the LS1 car for a bit until you are fully comfortable with the decision.

I spent a lot of time thinking how to be cost conscious, even though I didn't need to. I got a donor car, bought and sold highly desirable used parts for profit, etc... Then one day I came to conclusion it was defeating the purpose of the project which was to have !!FUN!! All the extra hassle for me wasn't worth the few thousand dollars I was saving. I sold the donor car and stopped trading used parts. The 'dollar saver' in me thought the donor car was a good idea, but the 'real me' didn't want to sell left over junk to mostly penniless people. (If you've tried then you know what I mean.) I ended up building the engine I wanted instead of using whatever I could find in somebody else's car. It used to be when I stepped into my garage I had $20K of stuff in the way I needed to sell. That causes stress too, you know. Now when I go into my garage all I see are my own things and I can have fun tinkering instead of watching my classified ads all day. Just a different perspective you don't hear much on the forums.

keeslinger31

They are both dilemma's but with the effort spent on stealing he could have done something for someone for some cash and instead of parting a perfectly good car you should at least just take what you want and sell the roller just don't crush a perfect car,
Now If you had bought something wrecked beyond repair it would be no problem to crush as it was crushed already

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

NICE donor!!

Now stop back and forthing and STRIP THAT SUCKER!! haha.

Trust me...take your time, remove parts carefully, and someone will suck that roller up and make it a nice car again. You have a clean title, nice clean body, and as long as nothing is destroyed in the removal, I think it'll live on.

Especially because someone that's wrecked their car, that might have money in drivetrain, will get a nice deal from you on a roller, and its already missing the parts they're going to install!

But seriously...what ever you decide to do...its the right decision. Good luck man!! Keep us posted!

J.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Well said.

89rs454

Good deal man, try your best to live with it and if not it's going into the IROC, I don't know who copied who but damn 4th gens look like Chrysler Sebrings imo.

abadv8

Wow, these are some interesting perspectives, and what I was really looking forward to. Part of the reason that I wanted a donor was so that I could pull the parts myself and not run into those “why did they cut that there?” situations. I am comfortable with my investment. I thought that I could do it a little cheaper than this, but I’ve waited long enough already and this is within my budget.

True, I really do not need the money that I would gain from selling parts that I do not use. But I also don’t like seeing something go to waste. In this case, the body is great. I don’t know that it will qualify as a “roller” when I am done with it, but it will still be a straight, clean titled car. And I have no intentions of sending it to the junk yard. Perhaps I can sell off the body as a whole and reinvest in wheels and tires, or engine parts?

I normally wind up giving things away to people that could really use them versus trying to sell them on the open market. The headache of trying to sell parts is, as QwkTrp has stated, generally not worth the marginal return. Additionally, I have never had any luck with selling “low dollar items”. I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments in this respect.

Keeslinger, was the “stealing” comment directed at me? I’m a little confused by that. Someone got what they needed to out of me already. Now I have their car. Such is the risk that you take when you sell your possessions; they become someone else’s possessions, and they may not value your things the same way that you did.

To put it in the words of the late George Carlin; “Other peoples’ stuff is sh*t and your sh*t is stuff”.

The plan is to drive this car as is, figure out what needs maintenance on the driveline, and get my ’89 prepped for the swap. My hope is that with a little historical information from operation, and the opportunity to perform some routine maintenance, the swap will be a more fluid operation.

Thank you for the input guys. I appreciate your thoughts… it makes me feel less insane.

keeslinger31

In reference to this not saying you stole anything lol
I Personally have parted more cars than I can count but never a low mile non wrecked car.

abadv8

Gotcha! I just wanted to make sure that I hadn't done something that could be construed as "wrong" already.